• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

God the Son didn't have a human nature.—RC Sproul

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,480
10,847
New Jersey
✟1,310,911.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Matthew 12:18; Hebrews 10:38

Neither of those proves that God has a soul in the sense we're talking about. In fact I'm not sure the soul is a separate part anyway. But in the context of Christology the only real issue is that whatever makes up a human being, Jesus has it. Because Jesus is a human being. I thought you agreed that Jesus is human. Do you actually disagree with this?

Soul (in a conventional Christian view) is more or less a separate spiritual part of a person. Since God is just spiritual he can't have one. The problem is that OT language uses "soul" to refer to the whole person. Both Mat 12:18 and Heb 10:38 are quoting God as saying something like "my soul is pleased." But that's standard OT language simply meaning that the person is pleased. It's not a reference to the soul as a separate component.

But this is also kind of not relevant to the question at hand. The point most of us have been making is that Jesus is a true man, so if assume that a man has a soul, Jesus has a human soul. If you want to talk about God as having a soul then I guess you'd say Christ has two souls. I just don't think many people look at God that way.

Anyway, it turns out that Apollinarius probably meant something closer to mind. Normally we do speak of God having a mind. Certainly Jesus has a human mind. So while there may not be two souls in Christ, presumably there's two minds. Though again I caution that we're really into an area where I'm not sure our understanding and language is very accurate. But I think it's accurate enough to be sure that Apollinarius was wrong. You don't really believe that Christ was without a human mind, having the Logos in place of what would normally be his, do you?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,434
28,859
Pacific Northwest
✟809,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Neither of those proves that God has a soul in the sense we're talking about. In fact I'm not sure the soul is a separate part anyway. But in the context of Christology the only real issue is that whatever makes up a human being, Jesus has it. Because Jesus is a human being. I thought you agreed that Jesus is human. Do you actually disagree with this?

Soul (in a conventional Christian view) is more or less a separate spiritual part of a person. Since God is just spiritual he can't have one. The problem is that OT language uses "soul" to refer to the whole person. Both Mat 12:18 and Heb 10:38 are quoting God as saying something like "my soul is pleased." But that's standard OT language simply meaning that the person is pleased. It's not a reference to the soul as a separate component.

But this is also kind of not relevant to the question at hand. The point most of us have been making is that Jesus is a true man, so if assume that a man has a soul, Jesus has a human soul. If you want to talk about God as having a soul then I guess you'd say Christ has two souls. I just don't think many people look at God that way.

Anyway, it turns out that Apollinarius probably meant something closer to mind. Normally we do speak of God having a mind. Certainly Jesus has a human mind. So while there may not be two souls in Christ, presumably there's two minds. Though again I caution that we're really into an area where I'm not sure our understanding and language is very accurate. But I think it's accurate enough to be sure that Apollinarius was wrong. You don't really believe that Christ was without a human mind, having the Logos in place of what would normally be his, do you?

Correct, to say Jesus has a "rational soul" (i.e. a human soul) is part of saying Jesus is entirely human. Jesus was not merely the appearance of man (Docetism) Jesus was--and is--really man. A human being. Like us in all ways, the only difference being He was without sin.

A human mind, a human will, a human capacity to reason, to grow, to learn, to feel, etc.

We read, "Jesus wept" we read "He grew in wisdom before God and men". We read these things because our Lord Jesus Christ is one of us, a human being. He was not God inhabiting a human costume, a suit of flesh like a person at a Disney theme park dressed as Mickey Mouse. But really, actually, entirely, and in every way human. Only without sin.

Jesus could be tempted, He was man.
Jesus could experience loss, He was man.
Jesus could bleed, He was man.
Jesus could die, He was man.

He was conceived, born, He grew, He learned, He lived, He suffered, He died, He rose again, He ascended to the right hand of the Father, He is coming again.

When our Lord walked along the Sea of Galilee He stubbed His toes on rocks. When in the wilderness a gust of wind blew sand into His nose He sneezed. After eating a spicy meal He passed gas. When an infant Mary changed His diapers. During a bad season He probably caught the sniffles. When Lazarus died, He felt grief. When the whip cracked and broke His flesh He bled, when the spear pierced His side blood and water flowed.

This is our God. Glory forever, honor eternal, majesty everlasting to Him.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

seeingeyes

Newbie
Nov 29, 2011
8,944
809
Backwoods, Ohio
✟35,360.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When our Lord walked along the Sea of Galilee He stubbed His toes on rocks. When in the wilderness a gust of wind blew sand into His nose He sneezed. After eating a spicy meal He passed gas. When an infant Mary changed His diapers. During a bad season He probably caught the sniffles. When Lazarus died, He felt grief. When the whip cracked and broke His flesh He bled, when the spear pierced His side blood and water flowed.

This is our God. Glory forever, honor eternal, majesty everlasting to Him.
Amen!
 
Upvote 0

sozo

Perfected
Apr 6, 2003
26
0
67
Kansas
Visit site
✟15,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So then, guess what? You believe Christ had two natures, human and God.
No, I don't, because the Bible does not teach that Jesus has two natures. The Bible teaches that Jesus has one nature. So far, I'll I'm getting from anyone on this "orthodox" site, is assumptions, opinions, and theories. I have provided the majority of the texts that speak to who Jesus is, and to what nature He is, and no one has addressed those texts. If you have something that teaches us who Jesus is, from the Bible, please share it. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my time.

Plus looking at some of your other comments, it appears you're conflating the terms nature and person.
Are you saying that Jesus is one person? A person who did not exist, being in "union" with the eternal person of God the Son? If so, then you have a man who became God, not a God who became a man.
You also have conflated soul with these as well. No one here in this thread to my knowledge thinks those terms are synonymous. One's nature is not the same as their person or soul. The disagreement may just be an equivocation error (on your part).
I'm not the least bit confused about any of this. I know what the "orthodox" stance is. Would YOU be willing to say that Jesus did not have two souls?
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,646
3,633
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟272,764.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
He had the limited mind of an infant, while he upheld the universe in transcendent wisdom.

He is the same forever, yet he grew in wisdom and stature.

He was acted upon by grief, yet he is powerful over all things.

He was the mighty and the fearful, yet he sweated blood with anxiety.

He died, yet he was life.


Christ is both human and divine. He has the human attributes insofar as he is human, and divine attributes insofar as he is divine. Simultaneously. Without division. He can exist in two seemingly-inconsistent ways without division, because no purpose of his can be thwarted.

If we try to collapse this wonder by dividing Christ into two, or by denying "incompatible" human or divine attributes, then we hide from beauty beyond us in favor of safe thinking!

That's absolutely beautiful.
 
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟38,161.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Are you going to continue to speak out against the translators, or are you going to share what it "actually" says?
It says "soulish man," in the sense that "Adam became a living soul." This is contrasted with Christ who is the spiritual man, who is a life-creating spirit.

Christians are constituted by the Holy Spirit, whereas old Adam was constituted by soulish life.
 
Upvote 0

sozo

Perfected
Apr 6, 2003
26
0
67
Kansas
Visit site
✟15,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It says "soulish man,"
Really? Did you get that from another "creed" or some translators I'm not familiar with? Please help me to know which Bible I should be reading. Maybe that is why I disagree with the "two nature" Jesus, because your bible has a verse that teaches it, and my KJV doesn't.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothea

One of God's handmaidens
Jul 10, 2007
21,646
3,633
Colorado Springs, Colorado
✟272,764.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
And this is what happens when we don't care about theology and don't bother insisting on the historic language and teaching of the Christian Church.

We get people who say Jesus was God inhabiting a human suit. And that's why the theology of Ephesus and Chalcedon are important. The theology of Nicea and Constantinople important.

Jesus is a real human being, with a real human body, a real human mind, a real human will, a real human soul, a real human everything. Like us in all ways except sin.

And Jesus is God, fully and entirely God, God of God and God with God, "the Logos was with God and the Logos was God ... no one has ever seen God, the only-begotten God/Son that is in the bosom of the Father has made Him known" For "He is the fullness of Deity in bodily form".

This One was in the beginning with God and is God.
This One became man, real man, in Mary's womb.

This One is both God and man, fully God and fully man, Theanthropos, the God-Man.

-CryptoLutheran

:clap:
 
Upvote 0

sozo

Perfected
Apr 6, 2003
26
0
67
Kansas
Visit site
✟15,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Correct, to say Jesus has a "rational soul" (i.e. a human soul) is part of saying Jesus is entirely human. Jesus was not merely the appearance of man (Docetism) Jesus was--and is--really man. A human being. Like us in all ways, the only difference being He was without sin.

A human mind, a human will, a human capacity to reason, to grow, to learn, to feel, etc.

We read, "Jesus wept" we read "He grew in wisdom before God and men". We read these things because our Lord Jesus Christ is one of us, a human being. He was not God inhabiting a human costume, a suit of flesh like a person at a Disney theme park dressed as Mickey Mouse. But really, actually, entirely, and in every way human. Only without sin.

Jesus could be tempted, He was man.
Jesus could experience loss, He was man.
Jesus could bleed, He was man.
Jesus could die, He was man.

He was conceived, born, He grew, He learned, He lived, He suffered, He died, He rose again, He ascended to the right hand of the Father, He is coming again.

When our Lord walked along the Sea of Galilee He stubbed His toes on rocks. When in the wilderness a gust of wind blew sand into His nose He sneezed. After eating a spicy meal He passed gas. When an infant Mary changed His diapers. During a bad season He probably caught the sniffles. When Lazarus died, He felt grief. When the whip cracked and broke His flesh He bled, when the spear pierced His side blood and water flowed.

This is our God. Glory forever, honor eternal, majesty everlasting to Him.

-CryptoLutheran
Already affirmed that Jesus is God in human flesh. God who became a man, not a monkey, or a dog, but a man. In fact, I said this:

"When Jesus came into this world, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (God), and took on human flesh. As a human he experienced hunger, pain, weariness, and death. He submitted Himself to His Father's will at all times. Not out of reluctance, but because His will was to do the will of the Father.


Like all men, Jesus had a brain, heart, lungs, etc. Unlike other men, Jesus was God in the flesh. From the moment of conception Jesus was one Spirit with the Father, and whatever the Father revealed to the child or the man Christ Jesus, was not tainted by the wisdom of this world. All revelation that Jesus received came directly from the Father."


However, no one will address the biblical evidence that Jesus does not have two natures, two minds, two souls, two wills, etc. The Bible clearly teaches that God has come in the flesh. In fact, those who teach the double-minded Jesus deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.
 
Upvote 0

sozo

Perfected
Apr 6, 2003
26
0
67
Kansas
Visit site
✟15,336.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And this is what happens when we don't care about theology and don't bother insisting on the historic language and teaching of the Christian Church.

We get people who say Jesus was God inhabiting a human suit. And that's why the theology of Ephesus and Chalcedon are important. The theology of Nicea and Constantinople important.

Jesus is a real human being, with a real human body, a real human mind, a real human will, a real human soul, a real human everything. Like us in all ways except sin.

And Jesus is God, fully and entirely God, God of God and God with God, "the Logos was with God and the Logos was God ... no one has ever seen God, the only-begotten God/Son that is in the bosom of the Father has made Him known" For "He is the fullness of Deity in bodily form".

This One was in the beginning with God and is God.
This One became man, real man, in Mary's womb.

This One is both God and man, fully God and fully man, Theanthropos, the God-Man.

-CryptoLutheran
And zero biblical support for your double-minded Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟38,161.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Really? Did you get that from another "creed" or some translators I'm not familiar with? Please help me to know which Bible I should be reading. Maybe that is why I disagree with the "two nature" Jesus, because your bible has a verse that teaches it, and my KJV doesn't.
ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος does not mean "natural man." When we say "nature" we mean φύσις.

What does "nature" mean to you?
 
Upvote 0

Knee V

It's phonetic.
Sep 17, 2003
8,417
1,741
43
South Bend, IN
✟115,823.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And zero biblical support for your double-minded Jesus.

How is our Christ "double-minded"?

Either way, when the author of Hebrews says, "He was like us in every way, but was without sin," what else does "like us in every way" mean other than that He was like us in every way? If that is not "biblical support", then what is? If the eternal Logos did not become everything that it means to be a human being, then what else is that passage saying?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,434
28,859
Pacific Northwest
✟809,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Already affirmed that Jesus is God in human flesh. God who became a man, not a monkey, or a dog, but a man. In fact, I said this:

"When Jesus came into this world, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (God), and took on human flesh. As a human he experienced hunger, pain, weariness, and death. He submitted Himself to His Father's will at all times. Not out of reluctance, but because His will was to do the will of the Father.


Like all men, Jesus had a brain, heart, lungs, etc. Unlike other men, Jesus was God in the flesh. From the moment of conception Jesus was one Spirit with the Father, and whatever the Father revealed to the child or the man Christ Jesus, was not tainted by the wisdom of this world. All revelation that Jesus received came directly from the Father."


However, no one will address the biblical evidence that Jesus does not have two natures, two minds, two souls, two wills, etc. The Bible clearly teaches that God has come in the flesh. In fact, those who teach the double-minded Jesus deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

If Jesus is God then He has a divine nature.
If Jesus is human then He has a human nature.

Therefore two natures.

On both counts, that Jesus is God and that Jesus is human, Scripture is consistent and clear about.

Jesus is God:

"In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God, this One was in the beginning with God and by this One all things were made, and apart from this One nothing was made that is made. ... the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only-begotten of the Father full of grace and truth ... no one has ever seen God; God, the only-begotten, has made [God] known."

"In Him [Jesus] was the fullness of Deity in bodily form."

"Though being by nature God did not regard equality with God something to hold on to; rather He emptied Himself by taking on the form of a slave, being made in the likeness of man."

"Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father."

"I and My Father are one."

"Before Abraham, I am."

"Looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

"About the Son He says, 'Your throne O God is forever and ever.'"

And Jesus Christ is human

"Today in the Town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manager."

"But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive the full rights of sons."

"Since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil--and free those who all of their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death."

"Because He Himself suffered when He was tempted, He is able to help those who are tempted."

"Or do we not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have One who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin."

"'My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death' He said to them. 'Stay here and keep watch.'"

"Jesus said, 'I am thirsty.'"

"And being found in appearance a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death--even on a cross."

So what part of "Jesus is both God and man" and thus He is both by nature God (as He is God) and by nature human (as He is human) is confusing for you?

Now, by all means, feel free to show how the Scriptures I offered are wrong, and provide your own religious dogma by repeating one or more already long ago dealt with heresies that the Church rightly rejected because the Church--unlike the heretics--knows what she believes which has been received from the Apostles, as written in the Scriptures, and is confessed in the Creeds.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dorothea
Upvote 0