I'm just wondering if Islam is really a pagan religion?

ChristsSoldier115

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I tend not to see what is happening in Islam today all about Sufis and mysticism and whirling dervishes.
That is all very academic though. If the real world was a book, that would be a very nice book to live in.
The whirling dervishes and Sufis are getting whacked too, by the deviants who are taking over the House of Islam.

I think the problem is that the crazies are literally killing them off, because the "ideal" muslim isn't violent or walking around armed to protect himself to begin with.
 
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Albion

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I have been beginning to view islam as a offshoot of christianity in the vein of the latter day saints or JWs. Islam is just much much older.

Whatever category those two fall under is the same I would place Islam.
Correct or not, that certainly is a POV that has been advanced by other observers. OTOH, both the LDS and the JWs derive their concept of God from the Bible; I don't know that it would be correct to say that of Islam.
 
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steve_bakr

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I tend not to see what is happening in Islam today all about Sufis and mysticism and whirling dervishes.
That is all very academic though. If the real world was a book, that would be a very nice book to live in.
The whirling dervishes and Sufis are getting whacked too, by the deviants who are taking over the House of Islam.

I don't see where you got that idea from my post, though. BTW, what Western visitors called "Whirling Dervishes" refers to the Mevlevi Order founded by the Persian poet and mystic Jalaluddin Rumi.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Correct or not, that certainly is a POV that has been advanced by other observers. OTOH, both the LDS and the JWs derive their concept of God from the Bible; I don't know that it would be correct to say that of Islam.

Well, when was the scripture that we know today finally canonized and accepted again? I believe Islam was created around 570-632 bc. Seems to link up historically in a sense. The bible that we know it didn't exist like it did for mormons or JWs. Muhammad's ideal "christianity" might be different.
 
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SolomonVII

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I don't see where you got that idea from my post, though. BTW, what Western visitors called "Whirling Dervishes" refers to the Mevlevi Order founded by the Persian poet and mystic Jalaluddin Rumi.

Your post is giving the impression that Islam is all about its mystical elements, and that is the real Islam.
That is all well and good, but it is worthwhile noting that those mystical elements such as Sufis and dervishes are severely persecuted by the Islamists in power, such as the Ayatollahs against the dervishes.

Again, it is not really our interest to determine which is the 'true' Islam, for as Christians or as secularists, it is not a true religion. Mohammed, to the extent that he even existed, is not a true prophet.
But what we see in the real world, rather than the world of books, is that the political Islamists take over the country, and the mystics get persecuted by them.

If you focus on the deity worshiped by the dervishes, or by the Islamists, there is a very different spiritual source among them, in my mind anyway.
 
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SolomonVII

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I think the problem is that the crazies are literally killing them off, because the "ideal" muslim isn't violent or walking around armed to protect himself to begin with.

Islamists don't consider themselves as crazies. They consider that their understanding of their religion to be the authentic one.
Further, Islamists can be very rational and sober and moderate in their deliberations and actions, and not barbaric at all.
Turkey has become an Islamist state precisely according to those methods and is a bigger threat because of that.
 
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PaladinValer

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LOL how so?

God is a god. Given the use of the word in my post, there is no way to logically misconstrue that I was suggesting that Muslims worship a different deity.

As such, it is a Fallacy of Equivocation. The Logical Fallacies: Equivocation

You make the claim that someone is making a false representation it behooves you to point it out, otherwise you are sinning against that person.

The Logical Fallacies: Attacking the Person<br>(<i>argumentum ad hominem</i>)

I'm not the subject; my post is. Hypocrisy.
 
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steve_bakr

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I don't quite see how this answers the question, however. It is not unheard of to borrow bits and pieces from one religion and make them part of some other religion. That doesn't automatically make the latter into a variety of the former.

It would be more sensible just to see the end result as a heathen religion dressed up with parts of somebody else's folklore.

That is quite a sweeping generalization. The Abrahamic religions in some ways inform one another. For example, Christian philosophy and theology was highly influenced by Islamic thought, especially in the Scholastic era and earlier. Two great Islamic thinkers who were extremely influential to Christian thought were Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and Ibn Sina (Avicena).

I think you would benefit from any or all of the following books: "Understanding Islam," by Frithjoff Schuon, "Islam: An Introduction," by Annemarie Schimmel, and "The Heart of Islam," by Sayyed Hossein Nasr. All three authors are bonafide scholars of great repute.
 
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steve_bakr

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Your post is giving the impression that Islam is all about its mystical elements, and that is the real Islam.
That is all well and good, but it is worthwhile noting that those mystical elements such as Sufis and dervishes are severely persecuted by the Islamists in power, such as the Ayatollahs against the dervishes.

Again, it is not really our interest to determine which is the 'true' Islam, for as Christians or as secularists, it is not a true religion. Mohammed, to the extent that he even existed, is not a true prophet.
But what we see in the real world, rather than the world of books, is that the political Islamists take over the country, and the mystics get persecuted by them.

If you focus on the deity worshiped by the dervishes, or by the Islamists, there is a very different spiritual source among them, in my mind anyway.

I gave a book title: "The Mystical Dimensions of Islam," by Annemarie Schimmel. But I have benefited from the teachings of the Sufis and I do know that they are being persecuted.

When I read "The Mystics of Islam," by R. J. Nicholson, I was very impressed with the affinity between Muslim and Christian mystics.

But once again, I think you are making a false connection between geopolitics and religion.
 
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SolomonVII

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Correct or not, that certainly is a POV that has been advanced by other observers. OTOH, both the LDS and the JWs derive their concept of God from the Bible; I don't know that it would be correct to say that of Islam.

It is the same characters of the Bible taking on different roles. The Islamic understanding of Christian themes do not come from a Biblical source, but demonstrably share the same source as apocryphal unorthodox Christian books.
 
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Albion

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It is the same characters of the Bible taking on different roles.

In other words, different characters but some of them have been given Biblical names. In order to be clearer, let me ask if you think that the "Jesus Christ" who does X and Y in the Book of Mormon is indeed the Jesus Christ that we follow? No, it's a mythical or fictional Christ.

The Islamic understanding of Christian themes do not come from a Biblical source, but demonstrably share the same source as apocryphal unorthodox Christian books.

Hmm. Well, am I supposed to change my conclusion because books that are NOT in the Bible refer to people who may have been incorporated in the Islamic faith?
 
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SolomonVII

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I gave a book title: "The Mystical Dimensions of Islam," by Annemarie Schimmel. But I have benefited from the teachings of the Sufis and I do know that they are being persecuted.

When I read "The Mystics of Islam," by R. J. Nicholson, I was very impressed with the affinity between Muslim and Christian mystics.

But once again, I think you are making a false connection between geopolitics and religion. However ISIS enwraps itself in religious language, it is a violent geopolitical movement whose motivation is power. Religion for ISIS is simply a tool to be used to gain power and control.

ISIS is not an embodiment of the teachings of Islam. To draw that false conclusion is illogical, unfair, and opportunistic.
Again, I can only deal with what is happening in the real world, and not make comments of what the true Islam is.
Only Muslims can reform Islam, and the ones that are your heroes are the same ones being persecuted by other Muslims who insist that they have the true version of Islam.

There is nothing false about connecting politics and religion when that religion is an overtly political one, and has been from the very beginning.

Mystics derive from every religious tradition, and their experience is strikingly the same experience. The fact that it is the mystics of Islam that are persecuted, and the Islamist and the ayatollahs that rise to power gives a more realistic representation of what Islam is. You are creating the false impression that Islam is nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with mystics and whirling dervishes.

If that was even ever true, it certainly is not the case now. ISIS is just the latest emanation of a political Islam, but there are scores more Islamist organizations that take over countries and win elections, with or without the support of sufis and dervishes.
 
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SolomonVII

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In other words, different characters but some of them have been given Biblical names. In order to be clearer, let me ask if you think that the "Jesus Christ" who does X and Y in the Book of Mormon is indeed the Jesus Christ that we follow? No, it's a mythical or fictional Christ.
I don't know a lot about the Book of Mormon, but my bias would be that it is a mythical and fictional account of Jesus.
And even then, it would probably be a closer account of who the Biblical Jesus is than what has come from Islam.



Hmm. Well, am I supposed to change my conclusion because books that are NOT in the Bible refer to people who may have been incorporated in the Islamic faith?

It is possible to talk to Abraham with Jews because Christians and Jews share the same stories about him. We share the same Bible.
It is a platitude to say that we are all three Abrahamic faiths because Muslims have a completely different set of stories about Abraham.

This causes a lot of confusion. Abraham of the Koran is not the same as the Abraham of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible is not the same as the Jesus of Islam.

People say all the time that Jesus is considered a prophet of Islam. Rather the Jesus of the Bible is a completely different character than the Jesus of Islam.

I would not want you to change you conclusion because your conclusion is the correct one. It is a platitude to think that we share Abraham, Jesus and Mary with Muslims. Half truths are in the end more deceptive than outright lies.

Islam is not a Biblical religion. That is not a small thing. That changes everything. In the end, we have more chance of finding common ground between ourselves and Buddhist or Shintos, because at least with those traditions we are dealing with entirely different matters, rather than a morphing of the same story into something completely at odds with the originals.
 
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steve_bakr

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Again, I can only deal with what is happening in the real world, and not make comments of what the true Islam is.
Only Muslims can reform Islam, and the ones that are your heroes are the same ones being persecuted by other Muslims who insist that they have the true version of Islam.

There is nothing false about connecting politics and religion when that religion is an overtly political one, and has been from the very beginning.

Mystics derive from every religious tradition, and their experience is strikingly the same experience. The fact that it is the mystics of Islam that are persecuted, and the Islamist and the ayatollahs that rise to power gives a more realistic representation of what Islam is. You are creating the false impression that Islam is nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with mystics and whirling dervishes.

If that was even ever true, it certainly is not the case now. ISIS is just the latest emanation of a political Islam, but there are scores more Islamist organizations that take over countries and win elections, with or without the support of sufis and dervishes.

You are somewhat overemphasizing my mention of the Sufis, although in many ways they represent the best of Islam and its inner principles. I would refer to the intellectual tradition of Islam in general, including the Sufis, the falsafa, Ibn Arabi, Avicena, Mulla Sadra, Nasr, and many others.

As I mentioned earlier, when the Christian Crusaders "liberated" Jerusalem from Muslim rule, they proceded to pillage the sacred city, destroying sacred sites and going on a rampage of murder and mayhem, killing everyone in sight.

This went on for days on end. Muslims saved many Jews from certain death by helping them escape the city and escorting them to Muslim lands.

This was one of Christianity's darkest hours. In effect, Jerusalem lay in ruins, its streets running with blood and strewn with body parts.

But it would be incorrect to say that the Christian Crusaders represented the teachings of Christianity, yet you are making the same leap of logic with militant Islamists.

I would recommend to you the same three books that I recommended to Albion earlier.
 
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SolomonVII

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You are somewhat overemphasizing my mention of the Sufis, although in many ways they represent the best of Islam and its inner principles. I would refer to the intellectual tradition of Islam in general, including the Sufis, the falsafa, Ibn Arabi, Avicena, Mulla Sadra, Nasr, and many others.

As I mentioned earlier, when the Christian Crusaders "liberated" Jerusalem from Muslim rule, they proceded to pillage the sacred city, destroying sacred sites and going on a rampage of murder and mayhem, killing everyone in sight.

This went on for days on end. Muslims saved many Jews from certain death by helping them escape the city and escorting them to Muslim lands.

This was one of Christianity's darkest hours. In effect, Jerusalem lay in ruins, its streets running with blood and strewn with body parts.

But it would be incorrect to say that the Christian Crusaders represented the teachings of Christianity, yet you are making the same leap of logic with militant Islamists.

I would recommend to you the same three books that I recommended to Albion earlier.
It is ironic how when Christians engage in apologia for Islam, they inevitably resort to bringing up Christian atrocities.

It is worthwhile pointing out then, that this dark hour did not go on for days, but for centuries. The rampage and destruction was not limited to a scores of Jews on ancient Jerusalem streets, but the whole southern half of France and the near genocidal destruction of the Albigensian. The Teutonic knights carried on even a more literal genocidal campaign, killing for Christ in their violent conversion of the Slavs of eastern Europe. The crusade continues into the new world and similar conversions of the natives, and into the witching times of the wars of religion, where suspicion and paranoia boiled over to where one could never be sure if one's neighbour was a secret Catholic, or Protestant, or witch, or demon.
And how can this be said not to be according to Christian teaching, when it was popes and preachers and the most prominent of Christians that were the greatest advocates of the crusades and the witch burnings?

If it is now universally not considered by us Christians to be Christian in any way shape or form it is because a different form of Christianity, an alternative teaching, finally won the argument. It was an internal battle, a reform from within, and we reformers carried the day. It did not come about because people outside of the faith pointed out what the true faith was, but because Christians themselves chose another path.

But how crass would it be, as those Jews and Muslims were lying bleeding and raped in the Jerusalem streets, for academics to muse to them how we are all children of the same God after all, under Father Abraham?

So far, in Islam, it is the Islamists carrying the day. When the Sufis, and the liberal intellectuals of Islam come out on top, then maybe it will no longer come off as patronizing platitudes to talk of three faith traditions, One God.
 
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PaladinValer

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It is ironic how when Christians engage in apologia for Islam

<snip>

No one is engaging in apologia for Islam. People are, instead, providing Christians to provide a better apologia for our own religion but making sure we don't exhibits lies, halftruths, and false information about Muslims and Islam when we engage Islam and Muslims in theological discussion.

No one here is suggesting Islam is a true religion.
 
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steve_bakr

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It is ironic how when Christians engage in apologia for Islam, they inevitably resort to bringing up Christian atrocities.

It is worthwhile pointing out then, that this dark hour did not go on for days, but for centuries. The rampage and destruction was not limited to a scores of Jews on ancient Jerusalem streets, but the whole southern half of France and the near genocidal destruction of the Albigensian. The Teutonic knights carried on even a more literal genocidal campaign, killing for Christ in their violent conversion of the Slavs of eastern Europe. The crusade continues into the new world and similar conversions of the natives, and into the witching times of the wars of religion, where suspicion and paranoia boiled over to where one could never be sure if one's neighbour was a secret Catholic, or Protestant, or witch, or demon.
And how can this be said not to be according to Christian teaching, when it was popes and preachers and the most prominent of Christians that were the greatest advocates of the crusades and the witch burnings?

If it is now universally not considered by us Christians to be Christian in any way shape or form it is because a different form of Christianity, an alternative teaching, finally won the argument. It was an internal battle, a reform from within, and we reformers carried the day. It did not come about because people outside of the faith pointed out what the true faith was, but because Christians themselves chose another path.

But how crass would it be, as those Jews and Muslims were lying bleeding and raped in the Jerusalem streets, for academics to muse to them how we are all children of the same God after all, under Father Abraham?

So far, in Islam, it is the Islamists carrying the day. When the Sufis, and the liberal intellectuals of Islam come out on top, then maybe it will no longer come off as patronizing platitudes to talk of three faith traditions, One God.

I brought up the pillaging of Jerusalem by the Christian Crusaders because of your leap of logic that makes a false connection between radical militants and the teachings of Islam. I was trying to show you in a parallel fashion that you would not draw the same conclusion if applied to the Crusaders.

You also can't judge any religion on the basis of who is politically in power. That is a totally wrong way to judge a religion and you ought to know that.

As for apologetics and polemics, I am totally opposed to Christians being misinformed about other religions and promoting that misinformation. We ought not to be casting aspersions at other religions. It makes us appear petty and ignorant. It does not help our cause.
 
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PaladinValer

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Really?

1.6 billion people worldwide and quite a number of people in Christian thought would agree it is a true religion.

:doh:

I was using the term as if it was true as per "religion of truth"; "the true religion".
 
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