I would not have know sin but for the law....

[Cribstyl]

This is what Paul says about the Law that "defines sin" Romans 7 - 1John 3:4 -- when speaking to those "under grace".

Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law".

Romans 6
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Which is how we demonstrate love for God according to 1John 5:1-4

Everyone of these scriptures noted by BobRyan are being manipulated with commentary that replaces the true understanding for SDA embelishments.

 

[rick357]

Everyone of these scriptures noted by BobRyan are being manipulated with commentary that replaces the true understanding for SDA embelishments.

I apologize for not being clear I would never expect or desire you to accept anouther mans commentary as truth but simply to take scriptures that were listed and see how taken at face value they agree or disagree with your belief. In short I meant the scriptures but thank you as I often forget others only hear what I say not why.

 

[Cribstyl]

[John 16:13]
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into ALL the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

John made it clear in this same book that the law was given by Moses, and therefore; 'grace and truth' comming from Jesus Christ is the commissioned gospel and cannot reasonbly be the law.
Jhn 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


Let you tell it, the law is that truth.
Let the Holy Spirit tell it.......... Paul in particular was used of the Spirit to preach of the grace and truth.
Act 20:24

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(It's the scriptures that seperates the law from grace.)

Eph 3:2

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(A special measure of grace is recieved by those who believe in the gospel.)

Gal 5:7
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
(The hinderance came from those who taught the law rather than the gospel being the truth)


Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


In case you missed it; The truth is the word of truth, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[rick357]

Again...God spoke to Moses...Jesus did not speak or do anything the Father had not told him...think...who is the source of both God who does not change.
The law came by Moses...yes instead of us who wear children of Adams death trying to figure out what God thought was right or wrong he told us...to what effect it showed us how much we were bound at our core with sin
The law is perfect we are the opposite
But grace and truth came by Jesus...first grace and mercy are differant mercy pays a debt owed...grace is an unearned gift(he gave the power to become the sons of God, brought into the promise of Abraham" I am thy shield and exceedingly great reward" I in them thou in me that they may be made perfect in one) that is the gift.he paid our sins he paid our death these are mercy
So if the law is right and how we should act why did Paul have a problem with keeping the law.
For this reason when Moses gave the law all sons of Adam had death in them from knowledge of good and evil not in thought but experiance so when they ageeed with the law that it was right they found in them evil present.
When Jesus accomplished the will of the Father. He brought us life now we are to live in and through him as he lives in and through us
Here come the judaizes...these believers taught that gentile believers should convert to judaism and become observant of the law. As we know Paul strongly came against this...why since the law is holy would he come against it.
for this reason trying to keep the law because you know it is good still has Adam as its power source not Jesus. So Paul would say if you are circumsized christ will profit you nothing
So why am I saying we should keep the law...Adam is crucified on the cross dead but not removed the Holy Spirit makes us living by being in and through us...He is God he will not break his own law...if we see we are breaking the law then we know adam is trying to have a resurection in our life and we must ask forgiveness trusting that the grace he has given is true and trusting him to life in and through us.

 

[squint]

John made it clear in this same book that the law was given by Moses, and therefore; 'grace and truth' comming from Jesus Christ is the commissioned gospel and cannot reasonbly be the law.

And I'm sure you realize that such a presentation is unorthodox.

The Law and every Word of God is acceptable to draw from for N.T. believers.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So many of you antinomians promote law tossing or Gods Words being tossed.

It's highly UNorthodox to make such requests. The Law was drawn upon heavily in the teachings of the N.T.

Here for example Paul provides a partial glimpse:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Gutting out part of the very BASIS upon which Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit made that factual claim is, as stated, UNorthodox.

If you saw that part of your own position is allied by the law and the prophets the LAST THING credible thing you would do would be to deny or toss it aside.

 

[from scratch]

Again...God spoke to Moses...Jesus did not speak or do anything the Father had not told him...think...who is the source of both God who does not change.
The law came by Moses...yes instead of us who wear children of Adams death trying to figure out what God thought was right or wrong he told us...to what effect it showed us how much we were bound at our core with sin
The law is perfect we are the opposite
But grace and truth came by Jesus...first grace and mercy are differant mercy pays a debt owed...grace is an unearned gift(he gave the power to become the sons of God, brought into the promise of Abraham" I am thy shield and exceedingly great reward" I in them thou in me that they may be made perfect in one) that is the gift.he paid our sins he paid our death these are mercy
So if the law is right and how we should act why did Paul have a problem with keeping the law.
For this reason when Moses gave the law all sons of Adam had death in them from knowledge of good and evil not in thought but experiance so when they ageeed with the law that it was right they found in them evil present.
When Jesus accomplished the will of the Father. He brought us life now we are to live in and through him as he lives in and through us
Here come the judaizes...these believers taught that gentile believers should convert to judaism and become observant of the law. As we know Paul strongly came against this...why since the law is holy would he come against it.
for this reason trying to keep the law because you know it is good still has Adam as its power source not Jesus. So Paul would say if you are circumsized christ will profit you nothing
So why am I saying we should keep the law...Adam is crucified on the cross dead but not removed the Holy Spirit makes us living by being in and through us...He is God he will not break his own law...if we see we are breaking the law then we know adam is trying to have a resurection in our life and we must ask forgiveness trusting that the grace he has given is true and trusting him to life in and through us.

Kinda wordy to some one waving bye.

 

[from scratch]

And I'm sure you realize that such a presentation is unorthodox.

The Law and every Word of God is acceptable to draw from for N.T. believers.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So many of you antinomians promote law tossing or Gods Words being tossed.

It's highly UNorthodox to make such requests. The Law was drawn upon heavily in the teachings of the N.T.

Here for example Paul provides a partial glimpse:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Gutting out part of the very BASIS upon which Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit made that factual claim is, as stated, UNorthodox.

If you saw that part of your own position is allied by the law and the prophets the LAST THING credible thing you would do would be to deny or toss it aside.

You gotta be bored.

 

[rick357]

Kinda wordy to some one waving bye.

That is my tendency...

 

[Cribstyl]

And I'm sure you realize that such a presentation is unorthodox.

The Law and every Word of God is acceptable to draw from for N.T. believers.

Who is saying that we cant draw from the law and every word of God?
Who should we say the law came by? Adam, Jesus or Moses?
Who should we say Grace and truth came by? Does scriptures say who the law came by? Does God say to who He gave His law? Does Jesus say whom gave the law? Does prophet's and apostles say who gave the law?
Nuff said on that issue.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So many of you antinomians promote law tossing or Gods Words being tossed.

It's highly UNorthodox to make such requests. The Law was drawn upon heavily in the teachings of the N.T.

Here for example Paul provides a partial glimpse:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Gutting out part of the very BASIS upon which Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit made that factual claim is, as stated, UNorthodox.

If you saw that part of your own position is allied by the law and the prophets the LAST THING credible thing you would do would be to deny or toss it aside.

Yes, Rom 3:21 is basic fact; That from NOW on, the righteousness of God without the law is being made known to all. Even the Moses and the Prophets wrote about it.

We agree on that.

 

[squint]

Who is saying that we cant draw from the law and every word of God?

There really isn't a choice in that. That's also why a person needs to be specific in their complaints, i.e. the law won't make anyone who follows it sinless, gain grace, etc etc.

And YOU anti-law people should also recognize that it is not a problem to do Sat. Sabbath or not murder or not eat pork/shellfish if a believer's conscience lends them to do so.

Who should we say the law came by? Adam, Jesus or Moses?

Too simplistic of a notion to start with. God issued commands that are still in effect from the Garden. One of them is that we will work to eat. Quite valid whether we like it or not.

Who should we say Grace and truth came by? Does scriptures say who the law came by?

Again too simplistic. We know that Grace was also contained in the law. So was salvation by faith. Trying to hone in on single statements from the text is unnecessarily myopic.

Does God say to who He gave His law? Does Jesus say whom gave the law? Does prophet's and apostles say who gave the law?
Nuff said on that issue.

Jesus was abundantly clear on the law and the Word of God in general and NOT to your intentions.

The law is and will remain rightfully against all lawless sinners. The primary reason you grace people don't like it is because it still proves us all sinners. Therefore you seek to destroy the PROOF.

s

 

[squint]

You gotta be bored.

Nah, I just pity you guys who don't know your Word better, so I share.

 

[from scratch]

The law is and will remain rightfully against all lawless sinners. The primary reason you grace people don't like it is because it still proves us all sinners. Therefore you seek to destroy the PROOF.

s

False argument.

 

[squint]

False argument.

If that's not true, then why don't you at least consider some sort of functional modifications of your scorched earth law policy that is more in line with the reality of the scriptures?

 

[from scratch]

If that's not true, then why don't you at least consider some sort of functional modifications of your scorched earth law policy that is more in line with the reality of the scriptures?

The way I read the Bible its all or nutin. So why do you wish to bring a curse on others?

 

[squint]

The way I read the Bible its all or nutin. So why do you wish to bring a curse on others?

There is one party to the drama of every person that demands to be cursed by ALL believers. It is our obligation to do so:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Believers who 'just see Paul' in the above equation will never understand the LAW.

They will vainly try to make that party either legal or under Grace when in fact neither formula will work or compute. So that party DOOMS them to chase their tails around in circles rather than to be honest.

They will then LIE and say they are legal (while yet being sinners.)

They will then LIE and say they are not sinners (while yet being sinners.)

They will then LIE and say their sin is under Grace. (which is the greatest LIE of all.)

Totally predictable activity by THE OTHER PARTY, signified and signaled by THE LIE.