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Why Evolution is True

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Paul of Eugene OR

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Speaking of that, has it been 100% proven that the earth is the third planet from the sun?

The word "prove" is used differently in different contexts. In mathematics, we accept certain axioms, and then derive by formal logic other consequences and say the results are proven. But they are only proven if one first accepts the axioms.

If one is willing to deny axioms, then one can never prove anything. In that sense, nothing will ever be proven.

In law, we seek to prove the accused is guilty. Proof here is not of the certainty level of mathematics. The judge will instruct the jury to merely achieve the level of certainty used in making common life decisions.

When you see the pronouncement that something cannot ever be proven completely in science, it is the mathematical certainty type of proof that is being talked about.

When you see someone say this or that has been scientifically proven, it is the other kind of proof, the level of certainty used in making common life decisions, that is being talked about.

Both ways of talking about things are valid. Some people like to play word games and play one definition of "proof" against the other and try to confuse things, to keep the other side from making their points.

Such word games don't change the facts.

Evolution has been proven to be true. You should be able to figure out, now, in what sense I mean that.
 
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PsychoSarah

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more like mythological. lol

just kidding, how about fossil

There is more fossil evidence than Darwin could have dreamed of, you have been shown some before, you disregard it every time, why bother showing you again?
 
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createdtoworship

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You have "proven" nothing. Evolution has been observed and documented, multiple times. I am sorry if you couldn't demonstrate using 4th grade science fair experiment logic. If you raise the bar to 7th grade I can show you some that work.

let me repost my original statement to jog our memories regarding this:

Even evolutionary Biology which is a hard science, is actually not science when you think about it this way:


  • until it is observed (evolution between genus), it cannot be hypothesized about,
  • until it has a hypothesis,
  • it can't be tested
  • until it is tested it cannot be a scientific theory,

“A hypothesis is a tentative explanation for an observed phenomenon.”
States a miami college of arts and sciences:
The Scientific Method
again:
If a hypothesis does not generate any observational tests, there is nothing that a scientist can do with it.- Batesville Community School Hypotheses
basically if a hypothesis is not testable through observations, then it cannot be considered a hypothesis as it breaks the first rules: testability.
So if Chemical and Macro Evolution lacks observation then it lacks the ability to be tested. If it lacks ability to be tested, then it cannot be a hypothesis and resultantly cannot be a theory scientifically speaking. If it is not either a hypothesis nor a theory, then it’s not science.

“empirical science deals only with observable, repeatable, and regular events in the present. These events have only natural causes. Into this sphere no supernatural or intelligent causes are permitted. Empirical science is king of this domain. But neither macro-evolutionary speculation about unobserved and unrepeated events of origin nor creation is part of empirical science.”- Norman Geisler in His book Creation and the courts.

“However, unless it is an observable, regular, and repeatable event, they have no right to consider it an object of empirical science. And if it is an unobserved, unrepeated event of the past, then it does not qualify as empirical science. In that case, it must be treated as forensic science—for which both macroevolution and creation qualify.”
“1999 Nature magazine published a letter from Scott Todd, an immunologist at Kansas State University, who said, “even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic.”22- Scott Todd, letter to the editor, Nature 401/6752 (September 30, 1999): 423.”
- Geisler, Ibid.

No origin science, either chemical evolution or ID can be repeated, or observed currently. Therefore it’s not science. The next question is, should it be legal to teach ID in public school? Yes. I don’t recommend it due to lack of updated textbooks and lack of training for instructors. But I think it should be legal. Just as legal as Evolutionary Biology, or Origin science (chemical evolution) is legal to teach. We can’t simply toss them out of public school because they are not observed, forensic science is not currently observed but it is still a science being taught. So too ID should be included as one that is legal to teach to any school student. Again, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean that we (ID’ers) are ready to publiclly teach it.

One major reason why legally ID hasn't faired as well in the courts:

"Another ambiguity in favor of macroevolution is the failure to clearly distinguish between microevolution, which is an empirical science, and macroevolution, which is being taught as if it too were an empirical science when it is not (see chapter 8). This equivocation has enabled evolution to survive the court tests of legitimacy while creation has not fared so well."

Geisler, N. (n.d.). Creation and the Courts: Eighty Years of Conflict in the Classroom and the Courtroom.
 
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createdtoworship

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There is more fossil evidence than Darwin could have dreamed of, you have been shown some before, you disregard it every time, why bother showing you again?

because I have dis-proven your evidence, doesn't mean that it is evidence. You must reevaluate it every single time, such is the dynamic of debate (and science for that matter). If you don't further wish to explain your evidences that is fine, we will assume it doesn't exist.
 
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createdtoworship

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Steve, these are really good questions but many seem to be based on an incorrect understanding of the subject. Let me try to explain a few points as best I can.


With evolution organisms do not turn into something else.

that was your first error. In fact in your first sentence. However Evolution: does it not claim responsibility for dog like creatures evolving into whales, or Dinosaurs into birds, or Ape's into humans?

how can you say they do not turn into something else? To prove this assessment you must prove that whales and dog like creatures are the same, or apes and humans, or dino's and birds. This begs the question.
 
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PsychoSarah

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because I have dis-proven your evidence, doesn't mean that it is evidence. You must reevaluate it every single time, such is the dynamic of debate (and science for that matter). If you don't further wish to explain your evidences that is fine, we will assume it doesn't exist.

No, you haven't disproven it, if you had you would have a Nobel Prize and probably would get to shake the pope's hand.
 
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createdtoworship

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No, you haven't disproven it, if you had you would have a Nobel Prize and probably would get to shake the pope's hand.

if our tax dollars weren't going to support the oposing theory we may get recognition. But having said that, Steve meyers signature in the cell did get an amazon award for being the most popular books when it came out. I guess that is a nobel prize of a lesser category.
 
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PsychoSarah

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if our tax dollars weren't going to support the oposing theory we may get recognition. But having said that, Steve meyers signature in the cell did get an amazon award for being the most popular books when it came out. I guess that is a nobel prize of a lesser category.

No, popularity of a text doesn't mean it is true or valid.
 
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Loudmouth

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if our tax dollars weren't going to support the oposing theory we may get recognition. But having said that, Steve meyers signature in the cell did get an amazon award for being the most popular books when it came out. I guess that is a nobel prize of a lesser category.

"Signature in the Cell" didn't contain any science done by Steve Meyers.

Also, there are millions of private dollars out there. Why can't creationists and ID supporters use private money to get some scientific research started? The Discovery Institute gets millions each year, and yet all they push out is propoganda.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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. . . So if Chemical and Macro Evolution lacks observation then it lacks the ability to be tested. If it lacks ability to be tested, then it cannot be a hypothesis and resultantly cannot be a theory scientifically speaking. If it is not either a hypothesis nor a theory, then it’s not science. . . .

Over and over again evolution of antibiotic resistance in microbes has been observed, and the various DNA alterations that did the job have been documented. That's an observation.

The whole of life is found to exist in a nested hierarchy of characteristics, a necessary finding if evolution is true, an unecessary finding if each species is seperately created. That's an observation.

A fossil record has been found to exist that perfectly fits within the nested hierarchy previously established for life, with extinct species filling in missing links in the evolution process. That's an observation.

All species have vestigial remnants of organs that existed in a previous species but now have greatly reduced or even no function. In humans, the ear wiggling muscles still exist, even though we hold our ears stationary because we have evolved a phase analysis system of hearing that works best with stationary ears. That's an observation.

A series of tracer retroviral inserts has been discovered that shows common descent for species known to be related due to other evidence such as listed above. That's an observation.

So since we have all those observations, the logical conclusion is that evolution is, after all, a valid scientific theory. At least, the objection that there are no observations to support it is invalid.
 
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createdtoworship

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"Signature in the Cell" didn't contain any science done by Steve Meyers.

Also, there are millions of private dollars out there. Why can't creationists and ID supporters use private money to get some scientific research started? The Discovery Institute gets millions each year, and yet all they push out is propoganda.

I like peer review, but we need to know it as a teacher of scientific orthodoxy, if a new theory pops it's head out it is very violent toward it.

here are some good ones:

much peer review has been written in the last 5 years about human design, stellar design, and avian design:

Michael Denton peer review 2/25/13 in bio complexity
Denton
Denton
D. Halsmer, J. Asper, N. Roman & T. Todd peer review in the International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics at the Wessex Institute (2009)
The coherence of an engineered world
a summary review of this particular journal is found at evolutionnews.org:
Pro-Intelligent Design Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper Argues for an "Engineered World" - Evolution News & Views
A.C. McIntosh peer review in the International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics at the Wessex Institute [Vol.4, No.2 (2009) 154-169]
Evidence Of Design In Bird Feathers And Avian Respiration
a summary review of this particular journal is found at evolutionnews.org:
Peer-Reviewed Pro-Intelligent Design Article Endorses Irreducible Complexity - Evolution News & Views
McIntosh has published other pro-ID peer-reviewed scientific literature, evolutionnews.org has reviewed here: Peer-Reviewed Paper Investigating Origin of Information Endorses Irreducible Complexity and Intelligent Design - Evolution News & Views
 
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Loudmouth

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that was your first error. In fact in your first sentence. However Evolution: does it not claim responsibility for dog like creatures evolving into whales, or Dinosaurs into birds, or Ape's into humans?

Dogs, whales, dinosaurs, birds, apes, and humans all belong to the jawed vertebrate kind. Wouldn't that mean it is microevolution?

how can you say they do not turn into something else?

Because they are not something else. Chimps and humans are still primates. Humans and bears are still mammals, as was their common ancestor.

To prove this assessment you must prove that whales and dog like creatures are the same, or apes and humans, or dino's and birds. This begs the question.

They are all jawed vertebrates, or more restrictively, they are tetrapods.

Terrestrial Vertebrates
 
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createdtoworship

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Over and over again evolution of antibiotic resistance in microbes has been observed, and the various DNA alterations that did the job have been documented. That's an observation.

The whole of life is found to exist in a nested hierarchy of characteristics, a necessary finding if evolution is true, an unecessary finding if each species is seperately created. That's an observation.

A fossil record has been found to exist that perfectly fits within the nested hierarchy previously established for life, with extinct species filling in missing links in the evolution process. That's an observation.

All species have vestigial remnants of organs that existed in a previous species but now have greatly reduced or even no function. In humans, the ear wiggling muscles still exist, even though we hold our ears stationary because we have evolved a phase analysis system of hearing that works best with stationary ears. That's an observation.

A series of tracer retroviral inserts has been discovered that shows common descent for species known to be related due to other evidence such as listed above. That's an observation.

So since we have all those observations, the logical conclusion is that evolution is, after all, a valid scientific theory. At least, the objection that there are no observations to support it is invalid.

I think I just posted this but let me post this quote again, what you do here is what many of the courts do regarding evolution, they refuse to distinguish between micro and macro evolution:

"Another ambiguity in favor of macroevolution is the failure to clearly distinguish between microevolution, which is an empirical science, and macroevolution, which is being taught as if it too were an empirical science when it is not. This equivocation has enabled evolution to survive the court tests of legitimacy while creation has not fared so well."

-above from: Geisler, N. (n.d.). Creation and the Courts: Eighty Years of Conflict in the Classroom and the Courtroom.
 
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bhsmte

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I think I just posted this but let me post this quote again, what you do here is what many of the courts do regarding evolution, they refuse to distinguish between micro and macro evolution:

"Another ambiguity in favor of macroevolution is the failure to clearly distinguish between microevolution, which is an empirical science, and macroevolution, which is being taught as if it too were an empirical science when it is not (see chapter 8). This equivocation has enabled evolution to survive the court tests of legitimacy while creation has not fared so well."

-above from: Geisler, N. (n.d.). Creation and the Courts: Eighty Years of Conflict in the Classroom and the Courtroom.

I wonder why the experts on the creationists side, couldn't convince the court of what you claim?

Must have been a conspiracy.
 
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Loudmouth

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I like peer review, but we need to know it as a teacher of scientific orthodoxy, if a new theory pops it's head out it is very violent toward it.

It isn't the newness of the theory. It is the poor quality of the science that scientists are against.

much peer review has been written in the last 5 years about human design, stellar design, and avian design:

This is the old bait and switch. If a paper contains the word "design" you will act as if it is research being done on intelligent design. It isn't.

What research has been done to test intelligent design? Can you name it?

Michael Denton peer review 2/25/13 in bio complexity
Denton
Denton
D. Halsmer, J. Asper, N. Roman & T. Todd peer review in the International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics at the Wessex Institute (2009)
The coherence of an engineered world
a summary review of this particular journal is found at evolutionnews.org:
Pro-Intelligent Design Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper Argues for an "Engineered World" - Evolution News & Views
A.C. McIntosh peer review in the International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics at the Wessex Institute [Vol.4, No.2 (2009) 154-169]
Evidence Of Design In Bird Feathers And Avian Respiration
a summary review of this particular journal is found at evolutionnews.org:
Peer-Reviewed Pro-Intelligent Design Article Endorses Irreducible Complexity - Evolution News & Views
McIntosh has published other pro-ID peer-reviewed scientific literature, evolutionnews.org has reviewed here: Peer-Reviewed Paper Investigating Origin of Information Endorses Irreducible Complexity and Intelligent Design - Evolution News & Views

A review is not a primary science paper. A paper with the word "design" in it is not an intelligent design paper.
 
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Loudmouth

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I think I just posted this but let me post this quote again, what you do here is what many of the courts do regarding evolution, they refuse to distinguish between micro and macro evolution:

Quite the opposite. You refuse to accept the definitions of micro and macro evolution that the courts use. Macroevolution is evolution at or above the level of species. Therefore, the production of a new species is macroevolution. We have directly observed the process of speciation, so we have observed macroevolution.
 
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createdtoworship

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Dogs, whales, dinosaurs, birds, apes, and humans all belong to the jawed vertebrate kind. Wouldn't that mean it is microevolution?



Because they are not something else. Chimps and humans are still primates. Humans and bears are still mammals, as was their common ancestor.



They are all jawed vertebrates, or more restrictively, they are tetrapods.

Terrestrial Vertebrates

like I said it's the difference between micro and macro evolution. Micro typically is within a population. there are many populations with the primate category. Just google the definition of Micro evolution, it will pop up.
 
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Loudmouth

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  • until it is observed (evolution between genus), it cannot be hypothesized about,


  • That is false. If you observe it, why would you hypothesize? Rutherford did not observe that the atomic nuclei was a small bit of positive and neutral particles before he hypothesized that it was. Einstein did not observe that space and time were changed by gravity before he hypothesized that they were. Kock did not observe germs causing disease before he hypothesized that they did cause disease.

    What you say is complete baloney. You do not observe the hypothesis. It is one of the most basic concepts of the scientific method, and you get it wrong.

    “A hypothesis is a tentative explanation for an observed phenomenon.”

    Too bad you don't understand what you quote. Right there it says that a hypothesis is an explanation. It does not say that a hypothesis is an observation.

    Now, go read "Origin of Species" which is found here:

    Literature.org - The Online Literature Library

    You will find that Darwin cites observation after observation after observation. He offers evolution through natural selection as his explanation for those observations.

    Please, learn how science is done.
 
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