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Federal judge: Arguments against gay marriage 'are not those of serious people'

Cute Tink

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Because these things are never an end in themselves. They are always a stepping stone toward something else. One thing is legalized, so then it becomes an argument for something else to be legalized.

Snipping the racial portion of your argument...

Funny that you give this point while companies run by religious people are seeking to use their religion as a way to push people out, not of their churches, but away as customers and employees, as if we are going to make for-profit companies into something equal to a church.

I see the homosexuals doing the same progression: First they are allowed to be gay, but in the "closet". Then they want to display what they do publicly and in gay pride parades

You think it's a problem that people are "allowed" to be gay? :doh:

And do you know why Pride parades exist?

, then they want to have civil unions, then to marry each other and have it recognized as equal as traditional marriage,

I don't know of many who wanted civil unions. Some were accepting it as a compromise. They wanted marriage to begin with. Not "traditional marriage", legal marriage.

And don't even get me started about how schools are now allowing children who "feel" like the opposite sex to use the opposite sex's restroom and locker room. I mean, come on!

Is this because we are "allowed" to be trans? I hate to break this to you, but as a trans person, "allowed" or not, this is who we are.

Also, "feel" is an absolutely terrible word to describe the experience. Not necessarily because it is inaccurate, but because people use the term "feel" to disregard and minimize what we are going through. I'd suggest you actually research what transgender/transsexual mean before continuing to minimize what it is.
 
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Joykins

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They need to go back in the closet for the good of society.

Now, that's a terrible idea. Lies about who you are and marriages based on false pretenses are bad for everyone, lead to adultery, divorce, shattered friendships, family stress, etc.
 
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Joykins

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That whooshing noise was y'all missing the point.

A 'ring' does not mean someone is married, nor does it mean I'm heterosexual, just like my name doesn't automatically mean I'm a heterosexual.

Correct...you are advertising your heterosexual lifestyle, not your orientation. Since we know WELS does not have female pastors ^_^
 
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Joykins

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That whooshing noise was y'all missing the point.

A 'ring' does not mean someone is married, nor does it mean I'm heterosexual, just like my name doesn't automatically mean I'm a heterosexual.

Correct...you are advertising your heterosexual lifestyle, not your orientation. Since we know WELS does not have female pastors ^_^

Also I personally don't mind hearing anyone's sexual orientation, if they care to tell--the subject is of interest to me (but orgies aren't so DON'T tell me about them if you have them ^_^).
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Correct...you are advertising your heterosexual lifestyle, not your orientation. Since we know WELS does not have female pastors ^_^

Also I personally don't mind hearing anyone's sexual orientation, if they care to tell--the subject is of interest to me (but orgies aren't so DON'T tell me about them if you have them ^_^).

Well shucks. There goes sharing time. Thanks, killjoy. :D
 
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Glass*Soul

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Correct...you are advertising your heterosexual lifestyle, not your orientation. Since we know WELS does not have female pastors ^_^

Also I personally don't mind hearing anyone's sexual orientation, if they care to tell--the subject is of interest to me (but orgies aren't so DON'T tell me about them if you have them ^_^).

If seebs were here, he'd tell us more research is needed.
 
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Joykins

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If seebs were here, he'd tell us more research is needed.

Charts and tables, fine.

For the love of all that is holy, NO PICTURES! :eek: I have already sustained such damage I cannot look at a dirty sock or hotel bedspread again.
 
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Aldebaran

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Funny that you give this point while companies run by religious people are seeking to use their religion as a way to push people out, not of their churches, but away as customers and employees, as if we are going to make for-profit companies into something equal to a church.

If that's what they choose to do, then their business will live or die by their decisions. I think they realize that. But it IS their business. If an employee doesn't like it, they have the right to work somewhere else. Their freedom is intact. If a customer is offended, they also have the right to shop someplace else. Their freedom is also intact.


You think it's a problem that people are "allowed" to be gay? :doh:

No. I only think that those people become a problem when they start trying to force others to believe that it's normal. If God says it's a sin, and we believe God, then how can we accept that it's normal? That's also where I have questions about those who call themselves "gay christians". It's an oxymoron.

And do you know why Pride parades exist?
From what I've seen of them, it's to flaunt what they do in private in the face of everyone else. If you know of another reason, I'd love to hear it.


Is this because we are "allowed" to be trans? I hate to break this to you, but as a trans person, "allowed" or not, this is who we are.

This may be true, but the example I gave about schools now allowing children to use opposite sex bathrooms and locker rooms is another example of how the rights of others are being violated. As a woman, how would you like it if men were suddenly allowed to use the women's bathroom while you're in there. Or if you were using a shower at the local gym, how would you feel if you were naked in the shower and then guys came in there with you? A straight male or female would be uncomfortable with this. Men's and Women's restrooms are separate for a reason, and until now I've never heard of anyone blurring the lines between the two. So the idea that my freedom (or in this case, privacy) is not being violated starts to not ring true anymore.

Also, "feel" is an absolutely terrible word to describe the experience. Not necessarily because it is inaccurate, but because people use the term "feel" to disregard and minimize what we are going through. I'd suggest you actually research what transgender/transsexual mean before continuing to minimize what it is.

When I said that, I was referring to people who can claim that they are trans even if they aren't. All they have to do is make the claim, and suddenly a boy can now go into the girls' bathroom. Does this not violate the girls in there in any way at all? Should the majority of the girls in that restroom now be made to feel uncomfortable and violated because of that one boy? I think a much better solution could have been found. Remember, these are children we're talking about.
 
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This may be true, but the example I gave about schools now allowing children to use opposite sex bathrooms and locker rooms is another example of how the rights of others are being violated. As a woman, how would you like it if men were suddenly allowed to use the women's bathroom while you're in there. Or if you were using a shower at the local gym, how would you feel if you were naked in the shower and then guys came in there with you? A straight male or female would be uncomfortable with this. Men's and Women's restrooms are separate for a reason, and until now I've never heard of anyone blurring the lines between the two. So the idea that my freedom (or in this case, privacy) is not being violated starts to not ring true anymore.

:nowords:
 
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Cute Tink

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If that's what they choose to do, then their business will live or die by their decisions. I think they realize that. But it IS their business. If an employee doesn't like it, they have the right to work somewhere else. Their freedom is intact. If a customer is offended, they also have the right to shop someplace else. Their freedom is also intact.

In principle I agree with this, however, there are a variety of practicalities that get in the way of an ideal situation.

No. I only think that those people become a problem when they start trying to force others to believe that it's normal. If God says it's a sin, and we believe God, then how can we accept that it's normal? That's also where I have questions about those who call themselves "gay christians". It's an oxymoron.

I really have no comment on this. As a religious group, churches have a right to their positions and to exclude those they don't want.

From what I've seen of them, it's to flaunt what they do in private in the face of everyone else. If you know of another reason, I'd love to hear it.

You may want to read this.

I was talking about the reasons why pride parades exist. Not current usage of the parades. Not all of them, by the way, are the flaunting San Francisco style parades. Many are low key.

Pride Parades exist because the LGBT community was marginalized, abused and even murdered (in some cases, especially towards the trans community, this is still alarmingly common) just for being there. Being out is still dangerous in many areas of the US.

This may be true, but the example I gave about schools now allowing children to use opposite sex bathrooms and locker rooms is another example of how the rights of others are being violated. As a woman, how would you like it if men were suddenly allowed to use the women's bathroom while you're in there. Or if you were using a shower at the local gym, how would you feel if you were naked in the shower and then guys came in there with you? A straight male or female would be uncomfortable with this. Men's and Women's restrooms are separate for a reason, and until now I've never heard of anyone blurring the lines between the two. So the idea that my freedom (or in this case, privacy) is not being violated starts to not ring true anymore.

When I said that, I was referring to people who can claim that they are trans even if they aren't. All they have to do is make the claim, and suddenly a boy can now go into the girls' bathroom. Does this not violate the girls in there in any way at all? Should the majority of the girls in that restroom now be made to feel uncomfortable and violated because of that one boy? I think a much better solution could have been found. Remember, these are children we're talking about.

First of all, most trans people do not desire to show off their bodies, because it outs them and that is very dangerous still.

Second, the school rules require someone to identify as the gender opposite their birth sex. This is more than just saying "I feel like a girl". Consistent patterns of behavior and presentation are what the school needs to see, Those two things are still unacceptable to a lot of people. Most guys I went to high school with would never face the bullying involved with being "a guy in a dress". Not worth it to sneak into a bathroom.

Third, the most well known example used is the California rules for trans children, which include provisions to allow kids who are uncomfortable with the situation to request and receive alternate accommodations so that they won't be exposed to the "dangerous" trans child. LA County School District, FYI, notes that they have had these rules in place for 10 years without problems.

Fourth, before you mention it, there have been no reports of increased incidents of people abusing these laws to gain access to vulnerable women and children. Do such things happen? Yes. They have happened for many, many years and are not aided by these laws, with my evidence being police chiefs repeatedly stating that the laws in their areas are in place and have had no increase in incidents of people dressing as women to assault women and children.

Last, I'm going to encourage you again to do your research. The things you are showing as worrying about are not happening where these laws are in place. In my area, since 2011 these laws protect trans people like me. I have had no incidents personally. I have heard of no problems with people abusing these laws and I am very close to my local police department.

These laws exist to protect a very marginalized and abused minority with a very high suicide rate. The trans people are the ones truly vulnerable in these situations. If you think it creates awkward situations allowing trans people into the appropriate facilities, imagine how awkward it would be if you forced us into the wrong ones. People in dresses going into the men's room - people who are going to be placing themselves in danger just to pee. Trans men tend to pass as men or at least boys really fast and you would force them into those areas with women.
 
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Now, that's a terrible idea. Lies about who you are and marriages based on false pretenses are bad for everyone, lead to adultery, divorce, shattered friendships, family stress, etc.

While I don't actually agree with the tone of what was being said, I find this all wrong...

Lies about "who you are" don't lead to marriages based on false pretenses, lies lead to marriage based on false pretenses. Aren't sure what you want? Simple, don't get married.

If you get married - for whatever reason - then you are obliged to your vows. Telling lies about "who you are," does not excuse adultery. You don't have to cheat just because you're not happy with yourself or your spouse.

Divorce is a choice you can make or not make, again. Family stress can probably be traced back to you (not literally...)

Using the same argument, we could argue that ALL infidelity is inevitably excusable by blaming it on your inability to be honest.
 
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Joykins

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While I don't actually agree with the tone of what was being said, I find this all wrong...

Lies about "who you are" don't lead to marriages based on false pretenses, lies lead to marriage based on false pretenses. Aren't sure what you want? Simple, don't get married.

If you get married - for whatever reason - then you are obliged to your vows. Telling lies about "who you are," does not excuse adultery. You don't have to cheat just because you're not happy with yourself or your spouse.

Divorce is a choice you can make or not make, again. Family stress can probably be traced back to you (not literally...)

Using the same argument, we could argue that ALL infidelity is inevitably excusable by blaming it on your inability to be honest.

I'm not saying that anything is "excusable." I'm saying that LIES are the very nature of the CLOSET. The closet itself is pretending to be something you're not. And the further you get into the charade, the more likely it is you are going to deceive on a very deep level someone who loves and trusts you. Whether that is adultery or something else.

If you think gay people ought to lead celibate lives, that's not the same thing as the closet. Not at all.
 
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Queller

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The constitution hasn't stopped your president from doing what he wants. It doesn't have the same authority it used to have.
Feel free to start a thread and give an example of anything unconstitutional the President has done.

Freedom? Do I have the freedom to not agree with you? Do I have the freedom to see God's word as the way I want to live? Those freedoms don't seem to be respected here. Am I wrong? If I am, then I don't understand what some of you guys have a problem with when I state my values.
Nobody has a problem with you stating your values. The problem comes when you try to legislate those values onto people who don't agree.
 
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Queller

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There seems to be plenty of disagreement as to where that line is drawn. If I say that I believe gay sex is deviant behavior and that it shouldn't be endorsed by government in the form of recognizing people who it as being married, then I'm called a hater. Does that indicate respect for MY freedom?
Yes, it indicates that you have the freedom to say what you want. It also indicates that others have the freedom to say what they want. You seem to want the right to say what you want without being criticized for it.

If a christian baker doesn't feel right about baking a cake for a gay couple for the "wedding", he's taken to court and sued, even though the couple could have simply gone to another baker. Is that a show of respect for HIS freedom?
He broke the law. What do you think should happen when people break the law?

Whenever the Bible mentions marriage, it is between a male and a female. So why should it be strange or hateful of me when I see it as abnormal when suddenly 2 men want to do what, up until very recently, was between members of the opposite sex?
Up until recently? The Roman emperor Nero married a man, and same-sex couples were getting married for hundreds of years until the laws written in the Codex Theodosianus outlawed it.

Gay Marriage—Nothing New Under the Sun

Here's my viewpoint about this whole subject:
Whenever the Bible mentions marriage, it is between a male and a female. The first mention of marriage, Genesis 2:24, describes it as a man leaving his parents and being united to his wife. In passages that contain instructions regarding marriage, such as 1 Corinthians 7:2-16 and Ephesians 5:23-33, the Bible clearly identifies marriage as being between a man and a woman. Biblically speaking, marriage is the lifetime union of a man and a woman, primarily for the purpose of building a family and providing a stable environment for that family.
OK.

Now, if you don't believe in God or the credibility of the bible, then you're not going to have the same basis of belief as the majority of members on this forum, which seriously makes me wonder why you and many others here come and bring up topics like this. You don't seem receptive to what we say. So really, what is it you're trying to accomplish?
I believe in God and the credibility of the Bible. What I don't believe in is using the power of the state to force my religious beliefs on others. Why do you?
 
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Belk

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Because these things are never an end in themselves. They are always a stepping stone toward something else. One thing is legalized, so then it becomes an argument for something else to be legalized. First, blacks were freed, then desegregated, then allowed to marry interracially, then formed special interest groups where they demanded preferential (not equal) treatment. At this point, we have a black president and plenty of black people in the highest levels of government, and yet they still claim we are a racist country. If they were to look back at where they came from and where they are now--accusing anyone who is white of being 'racist" simply for disagreeing with them--they should be happy, but are they? (I know I'll get plenty of feedback on this!)

I see the homosexuals doing the same progression: First they are allowed to be gay, but in the "closet". Then they want to display what they do publicly and in gay pride parades, then they want to have civil unions, then to marry each other and have it recognized as equal as traditional marriage, then they want to force people who are opposed to it to recognize it. I don't think it would be too far fetched of an idea that they'll be demanding that pastors will no longer be allowed to preach homosexuality as being a sin, lest the church lose its tax exempt status. Yeah, I've heard of that being proposed already.

And don't even get me started about how schools are now allowing children who "feel" like the opposite sex to use the opposite sex's restroom and locker room. I mean, come on!

It's a progression of events that the "progressives" use to get what they want. If it's not stopped at some point, this country will be in 25 years something that even you will think has gone too far. Many NOW already think so.


Well, this post is edifying. Thank you, though. You are the first Christian I have seen who acknowledges that the Civil rights struggle of homosexuals and blacks is similar. Even if you are apparently against both.
 
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KCfromNC

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Yeah, and by then even those who want to have sex with consenting minors will have more rights.

If that's something you want to advocate in favor of, you should start your own thread since it has nothing to do with the discussion here. But it is another good example of the thread title in action.
 
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Aldebaran

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Feel free to start a thread and give an example of anything unconstitutional the President has done.

Oh my goodness! If you want to find a thread about that, I'm sure you could find a great many of them if you just do a google search. I don't know if you'll find them on this site, but trust me, a great many websites will have that if that's what you're looking for. I won't waste my time repeating it here. No need.

Nobody has a problem with you stating your values. The problem comes when you try to legislate those values onto people who don't agree.

I haven't personally tried to legislate anything. All I've done is come here to discuss things. Sometimes people don't agree with me.
 
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Aldebaran

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If that's something you want to advocate in favor of, you should start your own thread since it has nothing to do with the discussion here. But it is another good example of the thread title in action.

Did you read that I was in advocating it? Go back and read it again.
 
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