Jesus' meaning of "world" in Jn 6:51 and 7:7

[FreeGrace2]

We aren't talking about John 3:16. So why bring that up?

Because you said this:
"You've countered an argument that I didn't make. I never said "world" meant "elect"."

So, if you never said "world" meant "elect", then please just tell me what "world" means in Jn 3:16. It's a perfectly logical question, given your claim.

So, please answer the question. If "world" doesn't mean or refer to "elect", then just what does it refer to???

 

[Hammster]

I've used Scripture to support my view, whereas you have not used Scripture to support your view.

You've appealed to some vague "orthodox view". Really? Based on what Scriptural evidence? That's been missing from your defense.

The point is that Scripture clearly states that Christ died for the sins of the world, meaning everyone, which entitles Him to be the "Savior of the world". This is beyond debate. By dying for all sin, all sin was paid for. So sin cannot be the reason people are in hell.

Scripture is not on your side in this debate. If it was, you'd have provided clear evidence to support your view, which you haven't.

While it's true that Christ died for the sins of the world, what isn't true is that "world" means every person whoever lived. If so, then God is unjust for punishing people in hell for unbelief. Unbelief is a sin.

 

[Hammster]

Because you said this:
"You've countered an argument that I didn't make. I never said "world" meant "elect"."

So, if you never said "world" meant "elect", then please just tell me what "world" means in Jn 3:16. It's a perfectly logical question, given your claim.

So, please answer the question. If "world" doesn't mean or refer to "elect", then just what does it refer to???

It's not logical considering that we aren't discussing that verse. Where in this discussion did I say that world meant elect?

 

[heymikey80]

John 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

John 7:7
“The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

Here, we have 2 verses in which Jesus mentiones the 'world'. In the first one, He indicated that He is the bread that He gives for the life of the world. This clearly is a reference to the scope of His death.

In the second verse, Jesus notes that the world hates Him.

So, is there any context in either passage that limits the meaning of 'world' in one but not the other.

If Jesus meant by 'world' all of humanity in 6:51, it is clear that He would die for all of humanity.

If His meaning in 6:51 was only about those who will believe, how is that supported in context?

If His meaning in 7:7 is only those who will never believe, how is that supported in context.

Calvinists claim that until God regenerates a person, they hate God and want nothing to do with Him. It can easily be seen that Jn 7:7 supports the idea of all of humanity before there is regeneration.

So, what support is there for the meaning of 'world' in 6:51 to be less than all of humanity?

I believe that Jesus meant all of humanity in both verses. He would die for all of humanity, and all of humanity is enmity against God until one believes the gospel.

"Not everything is Soteriology."

Christ gives His life for the redemption of creation as a whole. He therefore controls all the terms of salvation. He gains rulership over the entire world through His life and death, according to Pp 2.

To push that into a carried-out redemption of everything, I would have to point out, it would logically conclude nothing can change. If everything in the world must be saved, nothing must pass away.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not logical considering that we aren't discussing that verse. Where in this discussion did I say that world meant elect?

How can my request not be clear??? You said this: "Because you said this:
"You've countered an argument that I didn't make. I never said "world" meant "elect"."

So, the question is this: what does "world" mean in Jn 3:16? I know that you never said "world" meant "elect" in a general statement.

But, it DOES have a meaning in Jn 3:16. Why are you stalling and dodging in answering my question? It is a legitimate question, given all else you've said.

So, please quit stalling and just answer the question.

In a related passage, could you please tell me what "all things" means?

Colossians 1:15
And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Specifically, what does "reconcile all things to Himself" mean?

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Not everything is Soteriology."

Christ gives His life for the redemption of creation as a whole. He therefore controls all the terms of salvation. He gains rulership over the entire world through His life and death, according to Pp 2.

To push that into a carried-out redemption of everything, I would have to point out, it would logically conclude nothing can change. If everything in the world must be saved, nothing must pass away.

Unfortunately, nothing said here makes any sense to me. I have no idea what your point is. And nothing related to what I had said.

Could you address my post?

 

[Hammster]

How can my request not be clear??? You said this: "Because you said this:
"You've countered an argument that I didn't make. I never said "world" meant "elect"."

So, the question is this: what does "world" mean in Jn 3:16? I know that you never said "world" meant "elect" in a general statement.

But, it DOES have a meaning in Jn 3:16. Why are you stalling and dodging in answering my question? It is a legitimate question, given all else you've said.

So, please quit stalling and just answer the question.

In a related passage, could you please tell me what "all things" means?

Colossians 1:15
And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Specifically, what does "reconcile all things to Himself" mean?

Thanks.

You accuse me of believing that world means elect, even though I've never said it in the course of this discussion. Then, instead of backing the claim, you introduce another verse. That makes no sense. Even if I did think that world meant elect in John 3:16 (which I don't), it would have no bearing on our discussion.

So go back to post 7 and deal with what I actually said, instead of creating this rabbit trail.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You accuse me of believing that world means elect, even though I've never said it in the course of this discussion.

How about some honesty here. I simply asked what the word "world" means in Jn 3:16, and for some inexplicable reason, seems you'd rather dodge the question altogether. Why is that? What's so difficult to answer? Certainly the word means something to you. Right?

Then, instead of backing the claim, you introduce another verse. That makes no sense. Even if I did think that world meant elect in John 3:16 (which I don't), it would have no bearing on our discussion.

Dodge, dodge, dodge. If the word "world" doesn't refer to the elect, then who does it refer to? Please answer and quit stalling.

So go back to post 7 and deal with what I actually said, instead of creating this rabbit trail.

Sure.

This is what you said in #7:
"If Jesus meant all of humanity, then there would be no basis for sinners to be punished eternally in hell. So it's reasonable to understand that world in John 6 is referring to people groups, especially since his audience was Jewish."

OK, it doesn't mean all of humanity in Jn 6. But, what does it mean in Jn 3:16?

All this dodging suggests an uncomfortability in providing an answer.

 

[Hammster]

How about some honesty here. I simply asked what the word "world" means in Jn 3:16, and for some inexplicable reason, seems you'd rather dodge the question altogether. Why is that? What's so difficult to answer? Certainly the word means something to you. Right?


Dodge, dodge, dodge. If the word "world" doesn't refer to the elect, then who does it refer to? Please answer and quit stalling.


Sure.

This is what you said in #7:
"If Jesus meant all of humanity, then there would be no basis for sinners to be punished eternally in hell. So it's reasonable to understand that world in John 6 is referring to people groups, especially since his audience was Jewish."

OK, it doesn't mean all of humanity in Jn 6. But, what does it mean in Jn 3:16?

All this dodging suggests an uncomfortability in providing an answer.

You're the one running away from the OP on page one by attributing to me something I don't believe. So who's running?

But since you've abandoned the OP, here we go.

I'm not settled on what "world" means in 3:16. John, who used it in various ways, could have meant various things, including all of humanity. I don't think that's what he had in mind, though, otherwise he's showing a picture of God who's very fickle. Yes, He loves you, but not unconditionally, because if you don't love Him back, He stops loving you and sends you to hell.

 

[Skala]

You're the one running away from the OP on page one by attributing to me something I don't believe. So who's running?

But since you've abandoned the OP, here we go.

I'm not settled on what "world" means in 3:16. John, who used it in various ways, could have meant various things, including all of humanity. I don't think that's what he had in mind, though, otherwise he's showing a picture of God who's very fickle. Yes, He loves you, but not unconditionally, because if you don't love Him back, He stops loving you and sends you to hell.

I'm no Greek expert, but the Greek experts say that "kosmos" in 3:16 means "believers", which is one of the definitions of "kosmos"

Observe:

 

[Hammster]

I'm no Greek expert, but the Greek experts say that "kosmos" in 3:16 means "believers", which is one of the definitions of "kosmos"

Observe:

I don't think that makes sense, though.

 

[Skala]

I don't think that makes sense, though.

It does if you think about it. What argument is Jesus making? What was God's purpose in sending the Son into the world? He answers in v16: To save believers. Pas ho pisteuwn. All who believe.

What motivated God to send the Son into the world? His love. "For God so love the world" he sent Christ to save this particular group of people, believers.

If "kosmos" means every single individual, then argument makes no sense. Imagine:

"God loves every individual, so he demonstrated that love by sending Christ to only save some of them, the ones that believe"

How does his love for all individuals cause him to send Christ to only save some of them? That makes no sense. Thus the Greek experts say that by "kosmos" the author means "believers", because that actually makes sense. He loves this group, thus he sends his Son to save this group

Consistency.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're the one running away from the OP on page one by attributing to me something I don't believe. So who's running?

But since you've abandoned the OP, here we go.

I'm not settled on what "world" means in 3:16. John, who used it in various ways, could have meant various things, including all of humanity. I don't think that's what he had in mind, though, otherwise he's showing a picture of God who's very fickle. Yes, He loves you, but not unconditionally, because if you don't love Him back, He stops loving you and sends you to hell.

Who said that God stops loving anyone? And sending people to hell doesn't mean that He stopped loving anyone.

But, thanks for answering.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It does if you think about it. What argument is Jesus making? What was God's purpose in sending the Son into the world? He answers in v16: To save believers. Pas ho pisteuwn. All who believe.

What motivated God to send the Son into the world? His love. "For God so love the world" he sent Christ to save this particular group of people, believers.

If "kosmos" means every single individual, then argument makes no sense. Imagine:

"God loves every individual, so he demonstrated that love by sending Christ to only save some of them, the ones that believe"

How does his love for all individuals cause him to send Christ to only save some of them? That makes no sense. Thus the Greek experts say that by "kosmos" the author means "believers", because that actually makes sense. He loves this group, thus he sends his Son to save this group

Consistency.

God's love is demonstrated by providing salvation for the world, not just believers. Yes, He saves only believers, but the Bible NEVER EVER suggests, says or even hints at the idea that Christ didn't die for everyone.

In fact, just the opposite. Jn 4:42, 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Tim 2:4, Heb 2:9.

 

[Hammster]

It does if you think about it. What argument is Jesus making? What was God's purpose in sending the Son into the world? He answers in v16: To save believers. Pas ho pisteuwn. All who believe.

What motivated God to send the Son into the world? His love. "For God so love the world" he sent Christ to save this particular group of people, believers.

If "kosmos" means every single individual, then argument makes no sense. Imagine:

"God loves every individual, so he demonstrated that love by sending Christ to only save some of them, the ones that believe"

How does his love for all individuals cause him to send Christ to only save some of them? That makes no sense. Thus the Greek experts say that by "kosmos" the author means "believers", because that actually makes sense. He loves this group, thus he sends his Son to save this group

Consistency.

I don't think it makes sense to say that God loved believers so much that He sent His Son to save those who believe. It sounds redundant.

 

[Hammster]

Who said that God stops loving anyone? And sending people to hell doesn't mean that He stopped loving anyone.

But, thanks for answering.

If you want to think that God's wrath is poured out on those He loves, then you have a strange idea of love.

 

[heymikey80]

God's love is demonstrated by providing salvation for the world, not just believers. Yes, He saves only believers, but the Bible NEVER EVER suggests, says or even hints at the idea that Christ didn't die for everyone.

In fact, just the opposite. Jn 4:42, 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Tim 2:4, Heb 2:9.

"This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God." Pp 1:28 Being opposed to the believers is a hint not of salvation, but of destruction.

 

[heymikey80]

It does if you think about it. What argument is Jesus making? What was God's purpose in sending the Son into the world? He answers in v16: To save believers. Pas ho pisteuwn. All who believe.

What motivated God to send the Son into the world? His love. "For God so love the world" he sent Christ to save this particular group of people, believers.

If "kosmos" means every single individual, then argument makes no sense. Imagine:

"God loves every individual, so he demonstrated that love by sending Christ to only save some of them, the ones that believe"

How does his love for all individuals cause him to send Christ to only save some of them? That makes no sense. Thus the Greek experts say that by "kosmos" the author means "believers", because that actually makes sense. He loves this group, thus he sends his Son to save this group

Consistency.

Although, this is more an argument against using kosmos for "every person". It is effective, but as Hammster explains it doesn't address why John would say "especially ..." the same group.

Just so yknow, I think "world" is way bigger than believers. How so? There's a whole creation that is redeemed. People are the only occupants who are saved on belief. What else is saved? I dunno. But I do know all creation groans toward its redemption.

It is not simply people. More than believers, it's the rest of creation Jesus shall save.

To me a lot of "world" saving references refer to this preservation of the world as a whole, bigger than just the people, but talking only about the world's continuation as a whole, not what particular parts are going to be preserved, fixed, or burned up.

 

[EmSw]

If you want to think that God's wrath is poured out on those He loves, then you have a strange idea of love.

Why do you find that strange Hammster?

1 Kings 10:9 -
Blessed be the Lord your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the Lord loved Israel forever...


Ezekiel 36 -
16 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying,
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
18 Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
19 Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.

 

[EmSw]

It does if you think about it. What argument is Jesus making? What was God's purpose in sending the Son into the world? He answers in v16: To save believers. Pas ho pisteuwn. All who believe.

What motivated God to send the Son into the world? His love. "For God so love the world" he sent Christ to save this particular group of people, believers.

If "kosmos" means every single individual, then argument makes no sense. Imagine:

"God loves every individual, so he demonstrated that love by sending Christ to only save some of them, the ones that believe"

How does his love for all individuals cause him to send Christ to only save some of them? That makes no sense. Thus the Greek experts say that by "kosmos" the author means "believers", because that actually makes sense. He loves this group, thus he sends his Son to save this group

Consistency.

What some fail to see is that the onus is on man - "whosoever believes". He loves man whether he believes or not.