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Israel and the Church distinct? Convince me

BABerean2

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Excerpt from Prophetic Developments with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement. By F. Roy Coad 1966 (Brethren Historian) pages 23,24

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

To return, then, to the early Brethren movement. As with so much in those early days, the stage was held by two formidable men: Newton and Darby. Newton, the brilliant and austere scholar, inflexible in his views, and incapable of compromise: adamantly opposed to the Secret Rapture view, yet as adamantly futurist. Darby, warm hearted and impulsive, always ready to take the part of the under-dog, apt to jump half informed into violent partisanship, and with that one fatal weakness of intolerance of an equal: yet with his mind not yet made up. Then there was the church at Plymouth, scene of Newton’s own labours, and object of an almost paternal interest to Darby, in only too much danger from the Irvingite excitement, just then reaching a crescendo. With Irvingism was popularity identified the Secret Rapture teaching. The result needs little imagination.

Newton devoted all his great talents to opposing this menace to the infant church, but the vigour of some of his views led to strife. Darby was sorely concerned over the differences, and then, somehow, a solution seemed to appear. Newton in his reminiscences, suggests that Darby arrived at the solution while away in Ireland, and immediately wrote to him, in the obvious hope that this would heal the breach. Some have suggested that the original idea was introduced by an unnamed Anglican at Powerscourt. We have already noticed the tendency at Albury to dispensationalise God’s dealings with men, and we also know that Darby had, with his High Church background so filled with the concept of the Visible Church, reached his related conviction that the Church was ruined beyond repair: developing this into the doctrine that man had spoiled every previous form of God’s methods with mankind. The next step was taken. Darby’s solution was to project considerable sections of the New Testament away from the Church, as applicable only to a future dispensation of the restored Jewish remnant, which the Secret Rapture adherents envisaged. This would remove all the difficulties, and those Scriptures in the Gospels and elsewhere which presented such difficulty to adherents of the new teaching were thus simply explained: they referred not to the Church at all, but to the future Jewish remnant.

The solution was too facile. If Darby had hoped for Newton’s glad acceptance he was sorely disappointed. Newton saw its weakness at once:—


‘At last Darby wrote from Cork, saying he had discovered a
method of reconciling the whole dispute, and would tell me when
he came. When he did, it turned out to be the “Jewish
Interpretation”. The Gospel of Matthew was not teaching Church
Truth but Kingdom Truth, and so on. He explained it to me and I
said “Darby, if you admit that distinction you virtually give up
Christianity.” Well, they kept on at that until they worked out the
result as we know it. The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this
Was worse.’25

The damage was indeed done, and for a moment dispensationalising ran riot, as Tregelles has explained in his accounts of those times. But worse resulted, for Darby, finding his teachings challenged, reacted by vigorous attacks on Newton’s position, until a form of pamphlet war developed. Remorselessly the rift widened, to issue in the tragic division at Plymouth in 1845 and the still more tragic sequel. Prophetic excitement had done its worst: and although the division when it came was ostensibly on other points—as indeed was the division between Darby and Müller which so quickly followed—the feeling of a decade of often violent controversy had done its worst. ‘Had Newton accorded with Mr. Darby on Prophecy’ wrote Tregelles, ‘we should never have heard his voice raised against him as to Ministry or Church Order; his writings would not have been scrutinized with severity, in order to glean matters of accusation.’26

There is little further to add. The tremendous personality of Darby, backed by the immense learning of his disciple William Kelly, sufficed to impress his variation of futurism upon a large portion of evangelicalism: a process vastly forwarded by the adoption of his scheme in the Scofield reference Bible. Conversely, Newton’s views were for a time overshadowed by the allegations of heresy made against him by the followers of Darby: the effect of which, even the association of a name such as that of George Müller with similar prophetic views did not outweigh. From time to time other variations of futurism have appeared among Brethren and it is well therefore to make one important point. Wherever prophetic teachings have begun to develop any form of unbalanced emphasis, their proponents have not found a welcome lodging place among Brethren. Even among the dispensationalist wing has this been so: happily, the Darbyite leaders were men of a soundly based theology, and in general refrained after the first wild abandon, from carrying the theory to its logical conclusions. The established dispensationalism of the early Darbyite leaders has proved to be mild and comparatively innocuous. The teaching was never universal among Brethren, and influential leaders from the first have been opposed to it: as is demonstrated by the fact that Bernard’s Bampton Lectures on The Progress of Doctrine in the New Testament have been accepted Brethren reading, and were in fact reprinted in an abridged form by a Brethren publishing house. The chief harm of the teaching has been negative, in hindering a full appreciation of the unity of Divine Revelation, and at times in encouraging antinomian tendencies, but the teaching is essential neither to the movement nor to its ideals. It has been left to circles outside the Brethren, notably those connected with Dr. Bullinger, to develop this method of dividing Scriptures to a fuller extent.27

..........................................................................................

Darby could not get the Irvingite "Secret Rapture" to work without turning Matthew Chapter 24 into a "Jewish" passage. This was his way of justifying the "after the tribulation" found in Matt. 24:29. If you point out this verse to dispensationalists today, their response will almost always be, "It was written for the Jews." Christ was clearly talking to his disciples, but we are told by dispensationalists that somehow his response was intended for the Jews. Some dispensationalists will make the comment that his disciples were Jews.

The following verse shows that Christ regarded his disciples in a way that kept them separate from the Jews.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Benjamin Newton could not accept John Darby's solution.

Here we are today still continuing their argument.
...........................................................................................

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf
 
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Biblewriter

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Excerpt from Prophetic Developments with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement. By F. Roy Coad 1966 (Brethren Historian) pages 23,24

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

To return, then, to the early Brethren movement. As with so much in those early days, the stage was held by two formidable men: Newton and Darby. Newton, the brilliant and austere scholar, inflexible in his views, and incapable of compromise: adamantly opposed to the Secret Rapture view, yet as adamantly futurist. Darby, warm hearted and impulsive, always ready to take the part of the under-dog, apt to jump half informed into violent partisanship, and with that one fatal weakness of intolerance of an equal: yet with his mind not yet made up. Then there was the church at Plymouth, scene of Newton’s own labours, and object of an almost paternal interest to Darby, in only too much danger from the Irvingite excitement, just then reaching a crescendo. With Irvingism was popularity identified the Secret Rapture teaching. The result needs little imagination.

Newton devoted all his great talents to opposing this menace to the infant church, but the vigour of some of his views led to strife. Darby was sorely concerned over the differences, and then, somehow, a solution seemed to appear. Newton in his reminiscences, suggests that Darby arrived at the solution while away in Ireland, and immediately wrote to him, in the obvious hope that this would heal the breach. Some have suggested that the original idea was introduced by an unnamed Anglican at Powerscourt. We have already noticed the tendency at Albury to dispensationalise God’s dealings with men, and we also know that Darby had, with his High Church background so filled with the concept of the Visible Church, reached his related conviction that the Church was ruined beyond repair: developing this into the doctrine that man had spoiled every previous form of God’s methods with mankind. The next step was taken. Darby’s solution was to project considerable sections of the New Testament away from the Church, as applicable only to a future dispensation of the restored Jewish remnant, which the Secret Rapture adherents envisaged. This would remove all the difficulties, and those Scriptures in the Gospels and elsewhere which presented such difficulty to adherents of the new teaching were thus simply explained: they referred not to the Church at all, but to the future Jewish remnant.

The solution was too facile. If Darby had hoped for Newton’s glad acceptance he was sorely disappointed. Newton saw its weakness at once:—


‘At last Darby wrote from Cork, saying he had discovered a
method of reconciling the whole dispute, and would tell me when
he came. When he did, it turned out to be the “Jewish
Interpretation”. The Gospel of Matthew was not teaching Church
Truth but Kingdom Truth, and so on. He explained it to me and I
said “Darby, if you admit that distinction you virtually give up
Christianity.” Well, they kept on at that until they worked out the
result as we know it. The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this
Was worse.’25

The damage was indeed done, and for a moment dispensationalising ran riot, as Tregelles has explained in his accounts of those times. But worse resulted, for Darby, finding his teachings challenged, reacted by vigorous attacks on Newton’s position, until a form of pamphlet war developed. Remorselessly the rift widened, to issue in the tragic division at Plymouth in 1845 and the still more tragic sequel. Prophetic excitement had done its worst: and although the division when it came was ostensibly on other points—as indeed was the division between Darby and Müller which so quickly followed—the feeling of a decade of often violent controversy had done its worst. ‘Had Newton accorded with Mr. Darby on Prophecy’ wrote Tregelles, ‘we should never have heard his voice raised against him as to Ministry or Church Order; his writings would not have been scrutinized with severity, in order to glean matters of accusation.’26

There is little further to add. The tremendous personality of Darby, backed by the immense learning of his disciple William Kelly, sufficed to impress his variation of futurism upon a large portion of evangelicalism: a process vastly forwarded by the adoption of his scheme in the Scofield reference Bible. Conversely, Newton’s views were for a time overshadowed by the allegations of heresy made against him by the followers of Darby: the effect of which, even the association of a name such as that of George Müller with similar prophetic views did not outweigh. From time to time other variations of futurism have appeared among Brethren and it is well therefore to make one important point. Wherever prophetic teachings have begun to develop any form of unbalanced emphasis, their proponents have not found a welcome lodging place among Brethren. Even among the dispensationalist wing has this been so: happily, the Darbyite leaders were men of a soundly based theology, and in general refrained after the first wild abandon, from carrying the theory to its logical conclusions. The established dispensationalism of the early Darbyite leaders has proved to be mild and comparatively innocuous. The teaching was never universal among Brethren, and influential leaders from the first have been opposed to it: as is demonstrated by the fact that Bernard’s Bampton Lectures on The Progress of Doctrine in the New Testament have been accepted Brethren reading, and were in fact reprinted in an abridged form by a Brethren publishing house. The chief harm of the teaching has been negative, in hindering a full appreciation of the unity of Divine Revelation, and at times in encouraging antinomian tendencies, but the teaching is essential neither to the movement nor to its ideals. It has been left to circles outside the Brethren, notably those connected with Dr. Bullinger, to develop this method of dividing Scriptures to a fuller extent.27

..........................................................................................

Darby could not get the Irvingite "Secret Rapture" to work without turning Matthew Chapter 24 into a "Jewish" passage. This was his way of justifying the "after the tribulation" found in Matt. 24:29. If you point out this verse to dispensationalists today, their response will almost always be, "It was written for the Jews." Christ was clearly talking to his disciples, but we are told by dispensationalists that somehow his response was intended for the Jews. Some dispensationalists will make the comment that his disciples were Jews.

The following verse shows that Christ regarded his disciples in a way that kept them separate from the Jews.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Benjamin Newton could not accept John Darby's solution.

Here we are today still continuing their argument.
...........................................................................................

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Almost every point being made by this poster has already been clearly demonstrated to be incorrect, and the rest of them are immaterial. But instead of admitting this, he just continues to dishonestly re-post the same material in place after place, just as if it had not been already thoroughly disproved.
 
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Danoh

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BABerean2, I realize this question may fall on deaf ears, but I'll ask it anway, hoping otherwise - you name yourself BABerean2 and yet post the supposed "evidence" of "history," subject as it is not only to the unavoidable reading into of its reporters, but even worse, to the whims of their agendas.

That is where you practice your supposed "Bereanism," that is where you drink in your how to understand the various issues Dispensationalism poses? No wonder it poses them!

I suggest you do what I did when I first encountered Dispensationalism (Mid-Acts) - put all your writings of men notions aside - refuse their two cents - and go about learning from Scripture ALONE how to study Scripture - actually go about proceeding to study out IN SCRIPTURE ITSELF what PRINCIPLES IT teaches about HOW TO SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DAILY whether those things you encounter, agree with, disagree with are so.

I couldn't care less if Darby or whomever got a Secret Rapture, or whatever out of a Spiderman comic book - THE -ONLY - VALID - ACTUALLY - "BEREAN" - QUESTION - IS - NEVERTHELESS - WHAT - SAITH - THE - SCRIPTURE!!!

Meaning, BEFORE you even ask that question - BE A BEREAN - search the Scriptures daily as to ITS answer as to how to do so daily ITS WAY. Then, and only then can you even begin to hope you have a clue as to what you are dealing with...

"Then said Jesus to those JEWS which believed on Him..." John 8:31

While Paul related to a fellow JEW who believed " We who are JEWS by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles..." Gal. 2:15.

What Jesus was doing in that passage you misinterpreted was distinguishing between believing and gainsaying JEWS...

IF you care to be a Berean about it, there are more passages in favor of my assertion.

Again, you can not answer Dispensationalism until you learn FROM SCRIPTURE ITSELF how to study an issue out!

"Thou seeist, brother, how many THOUSANDS OF JEWS there are WHICH BELIEVE and they are all zealous of the Law," Acts 21:20

Interesting passage there - James is relating to a member of that Church which is Christ's Body, concerning that OTHER Church "the Israel of God" (which woule eventually TEMPORARILY pass from the scene as the Body Church came into its own. If that is not Dispensational - the issue if Identities of DIFFERENT people of God - then you are right - lets put our Bibles away, lets not study this out further IN SCRIPTURE - lets just believe the bias of Traditional Viewpoint found in countless, opposing commentaries...
 
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BABerean2

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Danoh,

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
.................................................................................
 
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Biblewriter

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Danoh,

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
.................................................................................

You are simply ignoring the fact that the scriptures present more than just one future return of Christ.

A Scriptural Precedent
http://www.christianforums.com/t7610681-11/
 
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