Jesus or Country?

GoingByzantine

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?

Romans 13 tells us that government is put here in order to promote justice and provide order. It was written in a context wherein government was doing that reasonably well. It was also written in a context wherein many may have believed that the claim that Jesus is Lord and Savior and the Son of God meant that Caesar- who claimed to be lord and savior and the son of a god- entailed violent resistance to the political authority of Rome.

What Romans 13 doesn't address one way or another are cases wherein grave injustices make the state no longer the state, but instead a fully exploitative criminal enterprise that promotes injustice and disorder. In those cases, I think we have to fall back on the social contract theories developed in early modern Europe and put into practice in the American revolution, the first phase of French revolutions, and the liberal Romantic revolutions of 1848.

However, when the state is basically promoting justice and basically providing order, I do not think we have any right to blatantly disobey government on particular issues. So long as the governing authorities are carrying out their God-given vocations, they are still God's servants whose laws we are bound to obey.

In the case of going off to fight in war, I think classic just war theory should inform the structure of a state's drafting policies, such that individuals may decline to fight in a given conflict if their church authoritatively declares that participation in the conflict is patently unjust. Currently the United States has no such mechanism in place, but only recognizes thoroughgoing pacifism as grounds for conscientious objection.

Of course, they are not only God's servants; they are our servants. Because most of us here live in some form of a constitutional and democratic system, our leaders are also responsible to us and to our laws. In the United States, that means the highest "governing authority" that we are "bound to obey" is not the president; it's the Constitution. And if the president (or anyone else) violates the Constitution, he has broken the highest laws in the land. It is then up to other authorities to carry out God's will in the left-hand (legal/political) realm. Because we have those checks and balances, we don't always need to run toward disobedience; we can instead participate in the political processes in orderly and civil ways.

What people who live in some form of a pure monarchy might do, I'm not as certain. If the king does not care political authority with others, and there are no checks on his behavior, I'm not certain however his subjects might go about redressing issues that are wrongs or are mistakes, but don't overturn his general authority. That was a huge problem in the Reformation era for Catholics, Lutherans, and the Reformed, which my tradition did a particularly bad job of addressing, sad to say. As it is, I can only be thankful that I live in a liberal constitutional democracy.

For more on that last point, check out Quinten Skinner's The Foundations of Modern Political Thought, vol. 2., The Reformation.

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ananda

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How does one determine which "hat" he or she is wearing is superior?

One can be a Christian, and at the same time wear the hats of citizen, father, brother, mother, sister, driver, janitor, etc.

If a man's "father" hat is superior to his "brother" or "son" hat, then his actions will reflect that. If the Christian hat is superior to the citizen hat, then one's actions will also reflect that.

Things are much easier to determine if one can accurately determine what "hat" (title, or role) he or she is animating at any specific moment.
 
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MKJ

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It's a difficult question. In most real cases, reasons for actions are complicated, and often opaque to the average citizen. There are issues of authority, and trust as well.

in the case of the fictional middle eastern entity, it may be on the one hand that they are hostile to Christians, while on the other they represent an improvement in other ways.
 
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Setyoufree

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Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?

Romans 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

When a nation goes beyond it limits of unrighteousness God brings its reign to an end.

A good example of this is found in Dan 5:26 "God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end."

Act 5:29 tell us when the state tries to compel us to disobey God, we have an obligation to civil disobedience.

Besides, are rulers are self-serving:

Luke 22:24 "A dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves."

A "benefactor" is one who helps others. They should be servants of the people! Instead they are mostly self-serving. Nevertheless, they have the power. They misuse it, but it beats anarchy.
 
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Noxot

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?

real freedom is not given to you from someone else ( our freedom was given to us from God already when he created us ). the spiritual freedom that is the result of God and man working together in unity does everything perfectly and so it is very important that you not only have Holy scriptures to tell you what to do but that you are working in Christ and correctly discerning good from evil in the unique and unrepeatable instance that each person goes through every single day of his life.

no christian in their right mind would obey the state over God!

i don't support any wars. I support terrorist killing me more than i support me going and killing people who happen to live in a country that have some terrorist. I have seen far to many evils that the USA has done to innocent bystanders to justify a cause for war. anyways i'm 8 times more likely to die by a cop than a terrorist...

I don't support abortions but then again I also don't support people having sex all willy nilly either. i guess the best the church can do is make sure to not be like the world. i don't even know the problem that the catholic church has with birth control? i prefer birth control over murdering little children. sometimes we must accept the lesser of two evils... but I prefer to die than kill. that personal choice was inspired by Jesus.

got to choose in love or it won't be right.

Rom 13:8 (YLT)
To no one owe anything, except to love one another; for he who is loving the other--law he hath fulfilled,


this world is far from perfect. whatever a christian does is to lead others to God, not so he can become a slave to other men.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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As a currently serving Soldier I can tell you there are certain limits I have placed on myself in my service. David for instance joined himself to the Philistines while they were at war with Israel and even offered to help them in their campaign, now I believe God intervened there and had the other Philistine kings say he couldn't go that way David didn't kill Jews, but the point remains. What may seem to us as an irregularity may not be. Some prophets even ran naked to illustrate God's message.

Now what does that have to do with this? Sometimes what we may interpret as God's will may not be, remember we are finite and limited in knowledge, God may indeed ask us to do something that seemingly violates our doctrine to help us understand some things, just make sure it's of God. When that time comes, if it does you'll know, something so serious God never leaves us second guessing the decision to be made.

As far as myself goes, I serve wherever I'm sent and believe God will keep me from making ill decisions. For instance, you can't say, I can take up arms against muslims or other non-Christians for this or that reason, because we are to try to win them to Christ, not destroy them. If you say, I won't take up arms against other Christians because that's wrong, then what about wars where there were Christian on Christian nations? Were those believers wrong for fighting? Did God punish them for doing so? I don't think so.

It's a matter of trusting God and being led by the Spirit I think....
 
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Melshezidek

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?
Allegiance to God first and foremost. I'd consider anything less as selling out to the enemy.
 
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SolomonVII

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The question boils down to whether or not we have the courage of our convictions, or if we will be cowards and do what we have to do to cover our own butts and survive when the State recruits us to its own cause.
Most people are basically cowards. Martyrs who chose their faith over the society that provides them sustenance and validation are a rare breed, and they stand out from the crowd on that account.
 
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Yarddog

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?
Our Christian values come first. Just as the Christians refused to worship the pagan gods, in the early Church, we should refuse to lower our standards to match what may be legal. (Just because abortion is legal doesn't mean we choose to abort)

The issues which you mention in Egypt, Libya, and Syria, and let's add Iraq, are more complicated issues. Helping Muslims against Muslims where Christians may be harmed isn't necessarily anti-Christian.
 
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football5680

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?
Christianity and the law of God are above any country so that would trump any loyalty I have to a country. If the country tries to impose something on me that is anti-Christian then I will reject it and deal with the consequences. I would never go to war against other Christians unless the issue of religion was a non-factor. If another country attacks us and they call themselves Christian then this would be a case where it would be a non-factor because we must defend the country against anti-Christian acts even if they were don't by people who claim to be Christians.

I would reject any aid we give to people if it meant that Christians would be harmed. The security of fellow Christians is more important than any nationalistic interest. I think supporting the Rebels in Syria is completely wrong and I would give support to Assad who protects the religious minorities over these terrorists. I don't really know why we would support the rebels in the first place since Assad is not a threat and he is a secular leader.
 
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A New Day

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Let's say your nation state asked you to do something anti-christian, say for instance participate in a war to prop up Islamic rebels at the expense of Christians (Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.). Would you help your state, or would you not do it, knowing that is was anti-Christian?

I have noticed that many people seem to place "The State" over the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I will have people tell me that Catholics should just fall in line with the birth control mandate, even though it violates our religious freedom. Yet, Romans 13:1-7 makes me think that we should obey the government, but Acts 5:29 seems to contradict. Thoughts?

That is an interesting question GoingByzantine, not only there is Romans 13:1-7, there is also Ephesians 6:5-9

We know that there are things and in the bible too that are of two fold, like the prophecies http://www.christianforums.com/t7717632/ and like to prostrate to God and that is the prostration of worship/adoration and to prostrate to people like the pope and the parents... and that is the prostration of respect, and there is the first covenant and the second covenant, and the spiritual and the material.

And for your question, we are on the earth: we are in the spirit and we are in the body, although Jesus came a spiritual Messiah there are those verses like Romans 13:1-7 and Ephesians 6:5-9 that I think that are material and they are good for the country like to form the constitution for example and they are not bad. George and Francis were knights, George died a knight and for Francis:

That night as he lay down to sleep with the rest of the army under the stars, Francis had a very vivid dream. He was in a hall full of armour with coloured banners hanging from the walls. He heard a voice ask him, "Francis, who is it better to serve, the Master or the Servant?" He answered, "The Master". The voice then said, "Go back to Assisi and all this will be yours." It was such a powerful dream that Francis acted on it and went back home. However, it was quite some time before he heard the voice again.

About the examples that you said I do not know if they are anti christian and when it comes to respect the call of the state that is something pure material and for that we must look into the laws, for example The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights Article 18 states:
1.Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.
2.No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice.
3.Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.
4.The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to have respect for the liberty of parents and, when applicable, legal guardians to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions.

The laws are not bad:

Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
And they were amazed at him.

Ecclesiastes 3:1
To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

I see your question like when they asked Jesus Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” 14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” I do not know how does the spiritual and the material actually meet yet like you see for Francis it depends on the person himself/herself and on the call of God for the person.
 
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A New Day

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GoingByzantine

You can also think in more related questions like what if the danger is from within and not from the enemy like what if a person is obliged to deny Jesus by a neighbour or by a teacher for some reason? Or what if a priest feels that God calls him for something and his leaders have another thought: http://www.christianforums.com/t7738113/
 
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Knee V

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It is always my hope that when push comes to shove I will do the right thing. I like being a Texan (and an American as well), but the state does not dictate morality for me. I hope that I will have the strength to disobey the law when/if that becomes necessary in order to do the right thing.
 
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