My rock challenge

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It works at our scale. But behaves strangely at some special scales.
It is very similar to that we do not see God, so we say God does not exist.

The flow of time being different in special situations is, actually, quite well understood. Gravity wells slow time down, and relative motion slows time down.

 

[Queller]

I create two rocks ex nihilo. I create one with two million years of embedded age and the other with none.

When you study them, your analysis shows that one rock is new and the other rock is old, despite the fact they are both the same age.

Am I being deceptive in making it look like one rock is older than the other?

Yes.

 

[Queller]

If an entity could create a new orange in an instant, it would have the appearance of age and history. Yet have no age or history. There would really be no way to tell it apart from a normal orange. Other than it would be an extremely perfect orange.

I really have no problem with embedded age as a concept (that is not to say I think that is what God did) but embedded history is inherently deceptive.

If God created Adam as a full-grown adult because that is what was necessary for him to survive, then that is embedded age and theologically (IMO anyway) fine. If, however, God created Adam with a scar on his knee such as would be sustained in a fall, that is embedded history and, since the fall that would have caused the scar never actually happened, God gave Adam a history that didn't exist. That IS deceptive.

What we see everywhere in the universe is the same. If the universe and our world are indeed only 6,000 years old, then God has given views of things that never happened. That is deceptive no matter how you try spin it.

 

[Queller]

No, the earth is measured by the presupposition that those processes take eons of time and that there was no global breakup, flooding, volcanism and increased subduction.

Because there is no evidence for any of those (well there is for continental breakup but not in the time frame YECs need).

What scientists study is the aftermath of a catastrophic flood and continental breakup never seen before.

There is no evidence of a GLOBAL Flood to study. All the existing evidence goes against the idea.

 

[Queller]

Yes.

Then the creator of the rock is a deceiver. The creature represented by that fossil never actually existed.

 

[Queller]

Wrong question. You should ask: How?

No, the "how" part of the question has been answered. The rock with the fossil in it was created ex nihilo with the snap of the fingers.

"Why" there is a fossil of a creature that never existed embedded in the rock is the correct question.

 

[Queller]

I understand. But you used a WRONG analogy. I (God) did not give false information to my students (people).

The millions of years of age is NOT a false information.

It is if the actual age is only 6,000 years.

 

[Queller]

If the universe were made to be only 6000 years old, it would not function.

Why not?

 

[EternalDragon]

I really have no problem with embedded age as a concept (that is not to say I think that is what God did) but embedded history is inherently deceptive.

If God created Adam as a full-grown adult because that is what was necessary for him to survive, then that is embedded age and theologically (IMO anyway) fine. If, however, God created Adam with a scar on his knee such as would be sustained in a fall, that is embedded history and, since the fall that would have caused the scar never actually happened, God gave Adam a history that didn't exist. That IS deceptive.

What we see everywhere in the universe is the same. If the universe and our world are indeed only 6,000 years old, then God has given views of things that never happened. That is deceptive no matter how you try spin it.

What things? Stars created like Adam's bones being created mature? You talk about scars on Adam while ignoring fully formed bones, brain and organs as well as reasoning and language. That is the exact same thing as scars and embedded history.

As far as the universe, you don't have enough knowledge about the creation event to be able to say that what we see wasn't created in 6 days, thousands of years ago. As there is the issue of stretching out the heavens and space time dilation.

You are arguing against God and the scriptures, favoring faith in your own opinion and man's opinion rather than God's own words.

 

[lasthero]

Stars created like Adam's bones being created mature?

It's not even just that. We can see remains from stars that went supernova, spread over millions of lightyears. If what you're saying is true, God made the remnant of a supernova that never happened from a star that never existed.

Why?

There's no reason for the Hawaiin islands to show a clear a progression of erosion and building that.

There's no reason for the earth to have dozens upon dozens of impact craters all over it that would have decimated life on this planet if they happened within a small time period, not to mention that they never were mentioned in any historical record ever.

There's no reason for varves and ice layers to go as deep as they do, and contain material from volcanic eruptions that never happened.

You can't just say 'TIME DILATION' like that explains everything.

 

[EternalDragon]

If God wanted it to, it would.

God wouldn't take care of him?

How do you know you weren't made five seconds ago with memories and brought into a world that was made to look like you'd lived in it?

A thousand year old sun would not put out enough heat for life on earth.
Now you are saying God should have created Adam as a child and reared him?

You are now being utterly and completely ridiculous.

 

[EternalDragon]

It's not even just that. We can see remains from stars that went supernova, spread over millions of lightyears. If what you're saying is true, God made the remnant of a supernova that never happened from a star that never existed.

Why?

There's no reason for the Hawaiin islands to show a clear a progression of erosion and building that.

There's no reason for the earth to have dozens upon dozens of impact craters all over it that would have decimated life on this planet if they happened within a small time period, not to mention that they never were mentioned in any historical record ever.

There's no reason for varves and ice layers to go as deep as they do, and contain material from volcanic eruptions that never happened.

You can't just say 'TIME DILATION' like that explains everything.

You are discussing two entirely different evidences. God stretched the heavens out. Those events did happen in space but not in our "time frame".

You are going by man's assumptions that those events on earth took a long time to happen. The ice layers they study formed after the flood during the ice age. They make assumptions about it using today's weather processes.

 

[lasthero]

Those events did happen in space but not in our "time frame".

Explain. Don't just throw out terms, explain how that works.

You are going by man's assumptions that those events on earth took a long time to happen.

If the impact craters that we observe on Earth had happened within a small amount of time, they would have annihilated life on this planet. That's not an assumption. That's reality.

The ice layers they study formed after the flood during the ice age.

If that were true, then the volcanic ash we measure from the ice layer would return different dates. At the very least, you wouldn't expect the ash to correlate with the ice layer we find it in...but that does happen.

Also, we're still in an ice age. You've brought up your idea of some short, super ice age after the flood, but you've NEVER done anything to support it.

 

[lasthero]

A thousand year old sun would not put out enough heat for life on earth.

God couldn't design a sun that works that way?

Now you are saying God should have created Adam as a child and reared him?

Why not? What difference would it actually make to him?

 

[lasthero]

Also, ED, explain this.

This shows the progression of dates from the Hawaiin island chain. The further you get from the main island, the longer the dates show. The farther island away from the hotspot has the most erosion. This is exactly what we would expect if it was formed over a long period of time, and exactly what we'd NOT expect if it was formed over a short period of time.

This isn't just a little bit of erosion, either - the last island is almost down to the nub. And it has a coral reef surrounding it.

 

[EternalDragon]

God couldn't design a sun that works that way?

Not enough fusion built up. And he did design a sun that way. You can see it if you walk outside on a sunny day.

Why not? What difference would it actually make to him?

Do you propose to be wiser than God? It would not have been "very (in the widest sense) good".

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[lasthero]

Not enough fusion built up. And he did design a sun that way. You can see it if you walk outside on a sunny day.

So God HAD to make a Sun that, when studied, would look to be billions of years old. He couldn't make suns and stars so that they showed their actual age? Why not? He's all-powerful, isn't he?

Do you propose to be wiser than God? It would not have been "very (in the widest sense) good".

Why? Wouldn't it be 'very good'? What does that even mean?

 

[lasthero]

Also, you're doing that annoying thing where you skip over posts that are staring you right in the face. I can't tell you how irritating that is.

 

[juvenissun]

Then the creator of the rock is a deceiver. The creature represented by that fossil never actually existed.

Not a deceiver, but a tester, a teacher.

 

[juvenissun]

No, the "how" part of the question has been answered. The rock with the fossil in it was created ex nihilo with the snap of the fingers.

"Why" there is a fossil of a creature that never existed embedded in the rock is the correct question.

No. It was not the question. You changed it.