Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[JesusMartyr]

My apologies Brenda for assuming you were male! So not believing in Paul is suicide? Leads to death? How is that? Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life…not Paul. The law is junk? We are going to have to seriously agree to disagree because the chasm in the way we see things is so completely opposite.

And IchoozJC: Yes, I blame Paul. Peter warns us that his letters are confusing to the unlearned and unestablished. Paul had a thorn in his flesh that he never overcame. John, a true apostle of the lamb, let me know in his letter that sin could be overcome. 1 John 14…

Peace to all,

Sheraldo

He who receives Jesus receives Paul. He who receives Paul receives Jesus. Anyone who rejects Paul rejects Jesus. For it is the selfsame Gospel of Jesus Christ Preached by Paul and other apostles that saved me and saves everybody.

A testimony that can not be argued with.

(Mat 10:40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

(Mat 10:41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

(Joh 13:20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

(Luk 10:16) He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.


The old law is now junk. Yes. Dead. Buried. It went into the grave along with the one who WROTE IT. Abolished. Make no mistake about it.
It is as "dung" as Paul appropriately referred to it and anything else of no value for salvation, after himself having been saved from that law of sin and death, delievered through the Faith of the Abrahamic Covenant fulfilled in Christ.

The only folk who'd argue with that are ones who desire to fill old wine skins with the new wine... and as Jesus said, that will burst. Trying to preserve the dead law with the living Life of Jesus resurrected will only bring death and destruction.

This is EXACTLY what I was delivered from in my salvation in Christ Jesus, as also perfectly preached by Paul the APOSTLE to me. Thank you Jesus for calling out PAUL!

The law of Moses aka the "law of sin and death" can not save. That is why it was abolished, as we all know it was, except 7th day Adventists and other cults who don't receive Christ as the fulfillment of the old law and the beginning of the New Law of Life.

I myself also likewise have been saved from that Mosaic law of sin and death, now saved in the New Eternal Law of Life, the New Covenant in Christ's blood, the Great Marriage Promised to Israel, fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant.

A Bible student will see the unbroken perfect stream of revelation from Genesis to Revelation. Paul is perfect in his part of that revealing as led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself, as is obvious to those who take the time to trace back to the O.T. roots of all that Paul gave exposition on, a great value that is a great loss if one rejects Paul.

A rebellious spirit will not see what Paul wrote, and will fall and stumble while "kicking at the pricks" as Saul (Paul) did prior to HIS conversion.

Unless one quits kicking at the pricks and lets Christ COME INTO THEM EXACTLY AS PAUL EXPLAINS, They have NO LIFE.
For Jesus is Life. And that is Perfectly Paul's message.

Word to the wise.

(1Th 4:8) He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

 

[Daniel121]

My O my what a controversy you have going here, yet time will tell, how is that you may ask? In a very short time, there are those on this thread that will be raised up into everlasting shame and contempt, and then again there are those in this thread that will be raised up as the brightness of the firmament and will shine as the stars forever and ever.

Give it a little time.

 

[Der Alte]

My O my what a controversy you have going here, yet time will tell, how is that you may ask? In a very short time, there are those on this thread that will be raised up into everlasting shame and contempt, and then again there are those in this thread that will be raised up as the brightness of the firmament and will shine as the stars forever and ever.

Give it a little time.

The time is imminent when false prophets like you will be exposed, and their fall will be great.

 

[Daniel121]

Ah, don't you just love the wisdom of Solomon, 'answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him.'

 

[JesusMartyr]

Jesus is the Christ. Now and Forever.

(Rev 19:10) ...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[JesusMartyr]

drstevej,

I find it funny that you quote Thomas Jefferson. Here is another quote from Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson was a pagan actually and had nothing good to say about Christianity. I'd never use a quote by him. An in-depth study showed he had a tremendous interest into the Essenes though, if anyone was interested.

He also said concerning the entire new testament;

"The words of Jesus are as diamonds in a dung heap".

He obviously wasn't very enlightened, so no one is doing themselves a favor quoting anything he said.

 

[Der Alte]

No I am not wrong, as you so rudely put it. But since you ask, let's look at the evidence:

Paul introduced himself to the Ephesians as an apostle (Eph 1:1).

That is one thing you got right, but...

His visit started out well, but after three months there was a huge uproar and they threw him out. Moreover he lost his new converts (Acts 19:8-9).

Your proof text says nothing about Paul having "lost new converts"

Act 19:8-9
(8) And he went into the synagogue, [No new converts in a synagogue only Jews. DA] and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
(9) But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way [Christians. DA] before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.​

These two vss. say nothing about Paul losing any one. The Jews were speaking evil about Christians!

[*] He said he had to fight for his life (1 Cor 15:32).

Another one right but it says nothing about Paul's character or relationship with God.

[*] He said that that everyone turned away from him, even his friends (2 Tim 1:15; 4:10; 4:16).

What is your point? Jesus prophesied this would happen to His followers? Matt 10:2-23, 24:9-10, Mar 13:13, Luk 21:17.

[*] He caused such a furore that the Ephesian Jews were still horrified about it over two years later (Acts 21:27-29).

So what? The Jews persecuted Christians from day one. More misrepresented scripture trying to prove false assumptions/presuppositions. These verses say nothing about any furor involving the Christians in Ephesus or anywhere else.

Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,​

So what? The furor was stirred up by Jews because they saw Paul in the temple and accused him of taking a gentile into the temple.

Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

So what? The furor had nothing to do with new converts or Christians but Jews accusing Paul of teaching against the law and polluting the temple.

Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)​

Still nothing about new converts or Christians.

[*] The Son of Man referred to a character who told the Ephesians he was an apostle, and when they tested him further, they discovered that he was not an apostle and had lied to them (Rev 2:2).

You have not proved anything about Paul and Ephesus!

[*] Paul met none of the four apostolic criteria (Acts 1:21-22).
[/list]
The evidence is easy to put together, for anyone with eyes to see. But if you still refuse to accept it, then please tell me who the false apostle was. Paul himself said that "All Scripture is complete", so the answer HAS to be in the Bible.

That is what the disciples decided. Did Jesus or the Holy Spirit say anything about choosing a new apostle by throwing dice?

If the Son of Man thought this was important enough to mention in His final address to the church, not just once but twice, don't you think we owe Him the respect of at least considering what He said? Or was He just blowing hot air, sending us on a wild goose chase after some mystery 'false apostle', who cannot be discovered by any means? If that's the case, why would He have mentioned it at all?TorahMan

What are you talking about here? What exactly did Jesus mention twice?

 

[Phantasman]

IchoozJC,
You said, Did you know that the Nazi party burned books in Germany before the country fell into chaos? That is what censorship does.

Did you know that Rome burned all the gnsotic books shortly before Rome fell?

Interesting irony.

 

[Sheraldo]

Jesusmartyr said:

I just can't imagine how shallow and meaningless one's life would be without his revelations to us from Jesus. But good luck with whatever you have left

Hello,

That's an interesting observation….For me, I have found the opposite to be true having been on both sides of Paul… Since removing the leaven as I call it, my relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have grown way deeper and more meaningful…..I could not imagine going back actually…

Thanks for the comment and the wish for luck though,

Sheraldo


PS I have found this verse in Revelation 2:17 to be true for me: "To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna…."

 

[Der Alte]

Phantasman,

You said, Thanks for your observation. Yes, it is ironic, but sad. They did a bit more than just burn gnostic books. They burned almost everything that disagreed with their ideas of Pauline scripture. They also persecuted the true believers in Yahushua from about the time of His death to the time of Constantine. They killed them in almost every kind of way. I personally believe that there were millions of them. They killed them in the Arena, they killed them in ever horrible fashion that one can think of including burning them at the stake. These men women and children were true martyr's. This went up until the time that Constantine then took Sunday worship established it as a day of worship. Sunday named after Apollo the sun god. Worshiped by the whole of Rome and their by this time most of its citizens like Paul. Who when push came to shove tried to run to Rome for protection. The wolf returning to his true home.

Blatant revisionist history. Where is your evidence that anyone burned "almost everything that disagreed with their ideas of Pauline scripture?" Who persecuted the true believers in Yehoshua from about the time of His death to the time of Constantine? Provide your evidence. There is no such name as Yahushua! Hebrew grammar requires that when YHWH is in the first part of a compound name it is pronounced Yeh or Yoh. Constantine had absolutley nothing to do with establishing Sunday worship. Christians were worshipping on Sunday more than 100 years before Constantine was even born and it had nothing to do with Apollo!

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chapter 67

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.​

 

[Sheraldo]

IchoozJC said:

Originally Posted by Jesus
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

I appreciate you looking out for me! I wasn't heading out to give money or food to poor people though yesterday …really hoped to hug and pray for some very hurting and shellshocked people in our small community….and hopefully inspire all of us to pray for the victims of a horrific tragedy…

Thank you if you could keep the families of the UCSB victims in your prayers!!

Sheraldo

 

[Sheraldo]

Phantasman said:

I can see where you are coming from. But if I may, please consider this:

Some "things attributed to Paul may not be his. Hebrews and the Pastorals has been considered by many scholars as not his style of writing, and the content themselves can be questioned as much does not seem to appear in his 10 books used by Marcion.

Next, you may want to consider Peters comments on Paul.

2 Peter 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

At first view, Paul can seem hard to understand, and mistaken. But after much seeking on my own, and seeing clarity through understanding that his message is entirely spiritual. without learning spiritual understanding, Pauls physical words seem shallow, to say the least.

I used to feel as you. Now, I see Paul as a master of hidden knowledge revealed to those who understand the spirit as he did, even being able to challenge Peter himself.

I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful comments Phantasman….however, I have considered all the evidence and have found Paul to be a false apostle. I read the whole 2nd Epistle of Peter to be an indictment of Paul…he spends a good portion of the letter going over the criteria of false teachers and their destruction. The way I "see" it and "hear" it is different than you and most see it. I see it as Peter naming him in a warning to those who have ears to hear in the grand finale of his letter. If you read 2 Peter out loud from 2 Peter 2 through the end of the letter you might be able to hear what I mean?

Peace to you Phantasman,

Sheraldo

 

[TorahMan]

There were more than 70 apostles sent out. Paul couldn't be one of them?

In the regeneration (as Jesus called it), on which of the twelve thrones will those seventy 'apostles' sit, to judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

 

[Der Alte]

Phantasman said:

I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful comments Phantasman….however, I have considered all the evidence and have found Paul to be a false apostle. I read the whole 2nd Epistle of Peter to be an indictment of Paul…he spends a good portion of the letter going over the criteria of false teachers and their destruction. The way I "see" it and "hear" it is different than you and most see it. I see it as Peter naming him in a warning to those who have ears to hear in the grand finale of his letter. If you read 2 Peter out loud from 2 Peter 2 through the end of the letter you might be able to hear what I mean?

Peace to you Phantasman,

Sheraldo

Doesn't read that way to me. But I don't have a presupposed hate on for Paul.

2Pe 3:15-16
(15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
(16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

 

[TorahMan]

The old law is now junk. Yes. Dead. Buried. It went into the grave along with the one who WROTE IT.

I am sincerely sorry to hear you say that. Have you considered the identity of the Person who wrote the law, and handed it to Moses? Here's what Scripture says:

"Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity... So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Then He said to Moses, 'Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them.' ... And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God" (Ex 24:9-12; 31:18).

Remember that John said "No one has seen God (the Father) at any time" (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12). So if no-one has seen the Father, then who was the Person who stood facing Moses, to hand him the two tablets of the Testimony? May I suggest the pre-incarnate Jesus, who also appeared to Abraham as one of the Three (Gen 18:2)? Do you have any better suggestions?

So when you condemn the law and call it junk, along with the One who wrote it, you are really blaspheming the Saviour whom you claim to honour!

You really should examine these things more closely for yourself, before quoting the lawless and blasphemous inventions of people like Paul. Paul did not come to teach us, but to test us. It's a source of grief that so few believers have woken up to this, as obvious as it is once you realise it.

 

[TorahMan]

2Pe 3:15-16:
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

So who are these "unlearned and unstable people who twist Scripture to their own destruction"? Just because you assume that it's believers who choose to obey the commandments doesn't make it true. It could just as easily be those who choose lawlessness, who are appointed for destruction. It can be read either way.

Paul himself openly revealed his modus operandi in 2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one (i.e. Paul) is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The 'strong delusion' is that grace nullifies the law. No, grace works in conjunction with the law. And I don't perceive any 'love of the truth' amongst most people here, who choose to attack people like me in the most awful ways possible, because we no longer kowtow to Pharisee Paul.

If that's the fruit of Paul's so-called "law of love", I want no part of it.

 

[IchoozJC]

So who are these "unlearned and unstable people who twist Scripture to their own destruction"? Just because you assume that it's believers who choose to obey the commandments doesn't make it true. It can just as easily be those who choose lawlessness, who are appointed for destruction.

Paul himself openly revealed his modus operandi in 2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one (i.e. Paul) is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The 'strong delusion' is that grace nullifies the law. No, grace works in conjunction with the law. And I don't perceive any 'love of the truth' amongst most people here, who choose to attack people like me in the most awful ways possible, because we no longer kowtow to Pharisee Paul.

If that's the fruit of Paul's so-called "law of love", I want no part of it.

Can you quote some of those attacks? I'm curious because I haven't seen anyone attack you "in the most aweful ways possible", whatever that means.

 

[Phantasman]

In the regeneration (as Jesus called it), on which of the twelve thrones will those seventy 'apostles' sit, to judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

WHAT???

 

[Sheraldo]

WHAT???

That was a good question Torahman...


Matt 19:28

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


and I think it also mentions it here:

Rev 22:14 The city wall (New Jerusalem) had 12 foundations, and the 12 names of the Lamb’s 12 apostles were on the foundations.

 

[Der Alte]

So who are these "unlearned and unstable people who twist Scripture to their own destruction"? Just because you assume that it's believers who choose to obey the commandments doesn't make it true. It can just as easily be those who choose lawlessness, who are appointed for destruction.

Don't really know and don't care. But the context strongly suggests that those who twist the scriptures are believers. Most nonbelievers would not have the scriptures, i.e. OT, to twist and the few that did would more than likely twist them. It would be expected. Believers who twisted scriptures would be of concern to the Christians that Paul was instructing. But the point is that Peter called Paul a beloved brother, not a false apostle, and compared his writings to the scriptures i.e. the OT.

Paul himself openly revealed his modus operandi in 2 Thess 2:9-12: "The coming of the lawless one (i.e. Paul) is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Yeah right! Paul is going to write "Hey I'm the lawless one who is coming, everyone watch out for me." If you actually believe that nonsense I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you real cheap.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The 'strong delusion' is that grace nullifies the law. No, grace works in conjunction with the law. And I don't perceive any 'love of the truth' amongst most people here, who choose to attack people like me in the most awful ways possible, because we no longer kowtow to Pharisee Paul.

It is only your opinion that the strong delusion is "grace nullifies the law." Paul never said anything like that. The people here are no more attacking you than you are attacking them. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you and supporting what they say from scripture, maybe you shouldn't be here.

If that's the fruit of Paul's so-called "law of love", I want no part of it.

Where did Paul say anything about a "law of love?" Guess you don't want any part of the new commandment of love that Jesus gave us, "Love one another as I ahve loved you."