What is NOT God?

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I wanted to pose my other thread another way.

In church, often the pastor says that God is "in this place".

So, is God distinct from the things in the room?

If you removed the pews, would God still be there?
If you removed the carpet, the windows, the walls, the crosses, the musical instruments, would God still be there?
If you removed the pastor, would God still be there?
If you removed 80% of the congregation, would God still be there?
If you removed the whole congregation, would God still be there?

You are now left with a barren plot of land: no building, no people, no pastor. Is God still there?

Okay, so keep removing stuff...

If you remove the grass and dirt from the plot, is God still there?
If you remove the Earth, is God still there?
If you remove the Solar System, is God still there?
If you remove the Universe, is God still there?

You are now left with Nothing. Eternal nothingness. A pure vacuum. No universe. No matter.

Is God still there?

My main questions:

1) How is God distinguishable from Nothingness?
2) Is God distinct? Or is God dependent?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I wanted to pose my other thread another way.

In church, often the pastor says that God is "in this place".

So, is God distinct from the things in the room?

If you removed the pews, would God still be there?
If you removed the carpet, the windows, the walls, the crosses, the musical instruments, would God still be there?
If you removed the pastor, would God still be there?
If you removed 80% of the congregation, would God still be there?
If you removed the whole congregation, would God still be there?

You are now left with a barren plot of land: no building, no people, no pastor. Is God still there?

Okay, so keep removing stuff...

If you remove the grass and dirt from the plot, is God still there?
If you remove the Earth, is God still there?
If you remove the Solar System, is God still there?
If you remove the Universe, is God still there?

You are now left with Nothing. Eternal nothingness. A pure vacuum. No universe. No matter.

Is God still there?

My main questions:

1) How is God distinguishable from Nothingness?
2) Is God distinct? Or is God dependent?

I would say (maybe this isn't directed at me but I'll answer anyways) that God as described by most Christians I've talked to would still be there even if you have infinite nothingness.

I've asked before and never gotten a straightforward answer to: What was God doing for an eternity before he created the universe? The usual answer is that time does not matter to God and so the question is meaningless.

Somehow, I'm left unsatisfied.

 

[Paradoxum]

Well, when Christians say 'God is in this place', I don't think they mean that God just turned up. Generally they believe in an omnipresence God, so they probably mean that God is particularly active/communicating here, or will be soon.

Christians don't think God is material, so talking about things you can see and experience is irrelevant to whether God is there.

The difference between God and nothingness, is that God is an immaterial supreme mind... and nothingness would lack such a thing. You can't sense this God in any way, of course.

I suppose theists would claim that this God makes itself known by acting in the world. Or that the God can be reasoned to exist.

 

[durangodawood]

....1) How is God distinguishable from Nothingness?
2) Is God distinct? Or is God dependent?

I'm afraid I'm going to provide my personal stock answer to these kind of questions:

You are going where reason is no help at all. The result will equations of words. Occasionally an idea. Never a reality.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Christians don't think God is material, so talking about things you can see and experience is irrelevant to whether God is there.

If god is not something you can see and experience, how can you say he's anywhere?

How can we differentiate this god from, let's say the undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon in my garden?

The difference between God and nothingness, is that God is an immaterial supreme mind...

Please demonstrate that a mind can exist without a physical brain.
Please demonstrate that an entity can exist without a physical body.

If you can't on both accounts, then please explain how I can differentiate this god from the undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon in my garden.

and nothingness would lack such a thing

Nothingness lacks everything. That's kind of what nothingness is: the absence of anything.

You can't sense this God in any way, of course.

Then how can anyone know anything about him? I can't sense my undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon either.

I suppose theists would claim that this God makes itself known by acting in the world.

Like my dragon who's making the grass in my garden grow?

Or that the God can be reasoned to exist.

I have a feeling that I can use the exact same reasoning to show that my undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon exists.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You are going where reason is no help at all.

BOOM!

Yes. Awesome. You nailed it.

Now draw the obvious conclusion. You're almost there, just go the extra mile.

 

[Radagast]

So, is God distinct from the things in the room?

Well, yes.

And it's hard for me to believe this is a serious question, when you're asking it in the non-Christian area of CF.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Well, yes.

And it's hard for me to believe this is a serious question, when you're asking it in the non-Christian area of CF.

No its a serious question. I've met Christians who think God isn't distinct from the room. As in, he is kind of "infused into being" with everything else that exists.

You've answered the first question in my post. Did you read the rest of my post to see the other questions I posed beyond this one?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

The difference between God and nothingness, is that God is an immaterial supreme mind... and nothingness would lack such a thing. You can't sense this God in any way, of course.

You aren't Christian so I'm not sure that you're characterizing Christians properly.

But, as in my OP, I stated that you remove everything and are left with infinite nothingness. You are saying that God still exists in that nothingness?

So what if you then remove God?

What, in any sort of practical way (beyond mere words), changes?

As in, what's the practical difference between God and Nothingness?

 

[Paradoxum]

If god is not something you can see and experience, how can you say he's anywhere?

How can we differentiate this god from, let's say the undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon in my garden?

Please demonstrate that a mind can exist without a physical brain.
Please demonstrate that an entity can exist without a physical body.

If you can't on both accounts, then please explain how I can differentiate this god from the undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon in my garden.

Nothingness lacks everything. That's kind of what nothingness is: the absence of anything.

Then how can anyone know anything about him? I can't sense my undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon either.

Like my dragon who's making the grass in my garden grow?

I have a feeling that I can use the exact same reasoning to show that my undetectable immaterial 7-headed dragon exists.

I don't believe in God, so I'd agree that there isn't sufficient evidence for God.

Whether the evidence for God is better than the evidence for your immaterial dragon is something you will have to take up with a theist. Personally, I'd say God makes more sense, though I don't believe in it either.

You aren't Christian so I'm not sure that you're characterizing Christians properly.

I used to be a Christian, and I was a Christian far long than I've been an atheist. So I'd say I can talk about Christianity just as well as, or perhaps better than, many Christians... on at least some subjects anyway.

But, as in my OP, I stated that you remove everything and are left with infinite nothingness. You are saying that God still exists in that nothingness?

Christians wouldn't agree that it is absolute nothingness... God, heaven, angels, etc, still exist. Some would say there's still a whole other spiritual world which exists.

So what if you then remove God?

What, in any sort of practical way (beyond mere words), changes?

As in, what's the practical difference between God and Nothingness?

I'm not sure why practical difference is important. Maybe other universes exist which we can never go to. It makes no practical difference, but that doesn't mean that millions of universes are the same as nothing.

Anyway, the existence of God, and the spiritual, could make a difference after death... whether you go to heaven or hell. Also, many Christians will claim that God talks to them, and acts in the world... so that makes a practical difference.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Christians wouldn't agree that it is absolute nothingness... God, heaven, angels, etc, still exist. Some would say there's still a whole other spiritual world which exists.

If you remove everything material and you are left with absolute nothingness then where exactly is the spiritual world? In what way does it exist?

How loose can the definition of "existence" be?

I'm not sure why practical difference is important. Maybe other universes exist which we can never go to. It makes no practical difference, but that doesn't mean that millions of universes are the same as nothing.

How loose can the definition of "existence" be? Can you say that there are a bunch of universes out there full of leprechauns but we have no way of detecting them because those universes aren't causally related to ours?

Can you say there are a bunch of universes out there full of flying spaghetti monsters? Or that there are a bunch of universes out there full of angels and demons?

If you make the definition of "existence" loose enough, you can posit that anything and everything conceivable exists....its just that most things don't have any impact on our universe.

Anyway, the existence of God, and the spiritual, could make a difference after death... whether you go to heaven or hell. Also, many Christians will claim that God talks to them, and acts in the world... so that makes a practical difference.

I guess that is the main point of contention then...

 

[Resha Caner]

I've asked before and never gotten a straightforward answer to: What was God doing for an eternity before he created the universe? The usual answer is that time does not matter to God and so the question is meaningless.

Somehow, I'm left unsatisfied.

I can understand that. I never liked the answer either until I found Padgett's work. With that said, it still remains a bit speculative. The honest answer would be, "I don't know. God didn't tell me." If you're dissatisifed with that answer, I would have to ask you why. If you were to ask me what my wife is doing right now, I'd have to give you basically the same answer, "I don't know."

In terms of a simple answer, John 17:24 seems to hint that the answer is, "Before the world was created, God was planning it." But as I said, from there it gets very speculative. So, it's a matter of how much credence you'll give to speculation.

 

[pyramid33]

I've asked before and never gotten a straightforward answer to: What was God doing for an eternity before he created the universe? The usual answer is that time does not matter to God and so the question is meaningless.

Somehow, I'm left unsatisfied.

God is already all that is. Amazing huh?

 

[Paradoxum]

If you remove everything material and you are left with absolute nothingness then where exactly is the spiritual world? In what way does it exist?

Well the point would be that it doesn't exist in this space-time, or plane of existence. So it isn't any distance from here. Imagine another universe which isn't spatially connected to this one. Or perhaps imagine a world which is on top of our world, but which doesn't interact with it at all most of the time.

When thinking of a spiritual world, you need to understand that it is made of a completely different substance. If something is a difference substance (not made of matter and energy) then you wouldn't be able to sense it, even if it were right in front of you.

I don't believe in any of this stuff by the way.

How loose can the definition of "existence" be?

Not loose at all. If it is in reality then it exists. How easily we can sense something doesn't define whether it exists. It only defines whether we have evidence for that thing.

How loose can the definition of "existence" be? Can you say that there are a bunch of universes out there full of leprechauns but we have no way of detecting them because those universes aren't causally related to ours?

Can you say there are a bunch of universes out there full of flying spaghetti monsters? Or that there are a bunch of universes out there full of angels and demons?

You can say those things if you want, but there isn't evidence for those things, or reason to believe in them. It's not about the definition of existence... it's about justification for belief.

If you make the definition of "existence" loose enough, you can posit that anything and everything conceivable exists....its just that most things don't have any impact on our universe.

You're talking about justification for beliefs, not the definition of existence (I think). I agree that there is no justifiable reason to believe in God... I'm just trying to explain the idea.

I guess that is the main point of contention then...

Yup.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, yes.

And it's hard for me to believe this is a serious question, when you're asking it in the non-Christian area of CF.

What exactly did you mean by this? Are you saying/implying that if nonchristians are allowed to answer a question about god...the question shouldn't be taken seriously?

 

[Ana the Ist]

God is already all that is. Amazing huh?

So...satan is actually god?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I can understand that. I never liked the answer either until I found Padgett's work. With that said, it still remains a bit speculative. The honest answer would be, "I don't know. God didn't tell me." If you're dissatisifed with that answer, I would have to ask you why. If you were to ask me what my wife is doing right now, I'd have to give you basically the same answer, "I don't know."

In terms of a simple answer, John 17:24 seems to hint that the answer is, "Before the world was created, God was planning it." But as I said, from there it gets very speculative. So, it's a matter of how much credence you'll give to speculation.

I happen to think that's a refreshingly honest answer. What surprises me is that christians accept it. Whenever I'm asked. "How did the universe begin (before the big bang)?" and my reply is, "I don't know" I usually get derided or at the very least looked upon like I'm some fool.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You are now left with Nothing. Eternal nothingness. A pure vacuum. No universe. No matter.

I'm pretty certain that most Christians believe in a form of panentheism, in which God exists everywhere in the universe, and yet also transcends the universe as some sort of timeless entity, perhaps a "spirit".

So, removing the universe means that you still have this timeless "spirit" that is God. Christianity is not pantheistic. Note the difference between panentheism and pantheism.

Wikipedia on panentheism:

Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force[1]) interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[2] Unlike pantheism, panentheism maintains the identity and significance of the non-divine in the world.[3]


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Resha Caner]

I happen to think that's a refreshingly honest answer. What surprises me is that christians accept it. Whenever I'm asked. "How did the universe begin (before the big bang)?" and my reply is, "I don't know" I usually get derided or at the very least looked upon like I'm some fool.

Thanks.

There is apparently a subtlety in "I don't know" that many miss. Or at least I think there is. I think people get frustrated with this answer when one side is arguing for necessity and the other side is arguing for possibility.

If your car won't start and you have it towed to a mechanic who tells you, "The battery might be dead," and you ask if he can replace it and he replies, "I don't know," that would be an unacceptable answer. You need a different mechanic, because there are certain criteria necessary for repairing your car.

If however, you're sitting around on your front porch one evening and a friend asks you how to get a car engine started and you reply, " I don't know how all cars do it, but I once heard about someone who used a rolling start", there is no reason for your friend to get angry and start arguing about how it won't work in vehicles with a torque converter. A rolling start is possible for cars with manual transmissions.

 

[variant]

1) How is God distinguishable from Nothingness?
2) Is God distinct? Or is God dependent?

God is not distinct nor distinguishable from not God.

That is the epistemic problem of theism.

So Agnosticism.