God is capable of performing the miraculous and the wondrous when and where He sees fit.
But they are not promised to be a normative, regulative component of Christianity--Jesus, in fact, condemns the seeking after signs and wonders as representative of this present wicked and faithless age.
The passage in [deutero-]Mark ought to be understood within the context of the apostolic period, "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." The "they" here is very obviously the apostles.
It's not that there won't or can't be signs/wonders, but it's not even remotely an emphasis in Scripture.
I think it is also important to caution building an entire theology around the dubiousness of Mark 16:9-20. I would caution it's inclusion as part of Mark as being something analogous to the Deuterocanonical inclusions of Daniel or Esther. Good, worth being kept and read; but probably not smart to try and isolate a single verse from it in order to offer as the proof text of a theological belief.
-CryptoLutheran
Listen to Crypto people, he's right on the money!
Aha! They were sued by the pancake kings! I knew it.
Thanks for the link.
Haha yeah that was a while back, but yeah they got nailed.
In regards to your opinion about IHOP, I don't know where you were going, but I've watched plenty of IHOP services online and I don't see what you see - They preach the gospel, their hearts are for the Lord, and if signs & wonders follow THEM that's biblical. Perhaps not every manifestation is from God, that's true... but in all my years of being in churches where God shows up, I've never seen anyone "begging God to slay them in the spirit", LOL
I belonged to an IHOP satellite campus here in my town called The Prayer House for about a year, and my ex-wife had been a member there for 5+ years. They abide completely to the doctrine of Mike Bickle and his cronies, and on occasions leaders from Kansas City (like Eddie Boasso) visiting to teach and do their show.
Much of the IHOP and Bethel doctrine permeated my old church, I recall services where someone who's viewed as a leader (but whom was never educated nor ordained as a pastor) leading prayer for healing and
demanding that God heal a person. Saying, "we won't leave here until you heal her God!" How
irreverent is that?!
My church shifted from a paradigm of prioritizing helping and serving others á là the Christian & Missionary Alliance credo, to an entirely self-serving paradigm of spending all of their time trying to indulge in the euphoric ecstasy that Bethel and IHOP and Lakeland and Toronto all promote. Chasing after a feeling instead of sacrificing ones self to help others.
They lost the plot, plain and simple.
I was wondering though, Cogent, has God given you the ability to see into these people's hearts? You seem to confidently state that all the people in the congregations of Bethel, IHOP, and other God serving churches are
I've been intimately acquainted with those churches and organizations because my church lost it's own sense of identity some years ago and started trying to adopt theirs. Therefore they were constantly co-opting their practices and beliefs in the interest of becoming more like them.
He's given me eyes, ears just like everybody else. We don't have to judge hearts to see what's actually happening and determine what a churches priorities are. When a church spends all of it's times within it's doors falling over, writhing around on the ground, making animal noises, making "fire tunnels" and laughing hysterically at inappropriate times I think it's painfully obvious that those places are more concerned with a feeling than the Great Commission.
I'm not judging individuals, I'm observing entities and their beliefs and practices.
Christ was far more concerned that his followers attended to the needs of the poor and the marginalized than spending all day lying on the floor laughing like they just took a hit of nitrous oxide.
Signs & wonders followed the men & women of the Bible and that will never cease.
At least THREE things follow those who are sold out for the Lord:
1. Signs / wonders / miracles
2. Persecution
3. Suffering for His sake (we're called to be partakers in His suffering)
If those things are not following one's life for the Lord then there's a problem. There's a worse problem if we are the one CAUSING the persecution & suffering within the ranks of God's bride.
I think the operative phrase is that "they followed", in other words: the apostles weren't following the signs and wonders, it was the other way around. Another way to put it is that the apostles did Christ's work, helping others and the signs and wonders happened now and then as a result.
The difference with today's groups in question is that they put the signs and wonders first. They can't be bothered with the millions of men, women and children forced into slavery and human trafficking, they're not concerned with the fact that a billion people on Earth drink unsafe water filled with viruses and bacteria that kills them before they reach adulthood.
I mean, considering the fact that
polluted water kills more people than all forms of violence including war - and this is a very fixable issue - they would rather spend their time walking on all fours and barking like dogs.
I've noticed that a lot of the people who claim they have "discernment" don't really have God's discernment at all.. Instead what they have is a judgemental spirit (goes hand in hand with the religious spirit).
I've been a Christian my entire life, I don't say that to showcase it as some sort of merit badge, but just that I've been around the block and I've seen quite a bit in my life. What it boils down to is that what Charismatic groups label "signs and wonders" these days amounts to actions that ultimately prove to be disruptive and bear little to no fruit.
I'm convinced that Christ wouldn't be found flailing around on the floor at a Jesus Culture conference but would more likely be on the street doing whatever he could to help the homeless, building wells in developing countries with no access to safe drinking water or combating the injustice of human trafficking.
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Realistically, IHOP is more responsible for atrocities such as that which is showcased in this terrifying documentary. The scene at 1:54 is especially horrifying to me...
This is
especially devastating to me because I've done some work in Uganda and seeing it tainted in this way grieves me deep in my soul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALNQ_xfOzlU
