The Prosperity Gospel? (Moved from WOF forum)

[JGiddings]

I just wanted to learn a few things. Sorry if a heated debate happened.

 

[Alive_Again]

The gospel to the poor. That's something each person who might take issue must decide what it truly means. What is the good news to a poor person?

The "acceptable year of the Lord" is understood to be the year of jubilee. This is where all debts are cancelled and everyone has their inheritance returned to them. It's a time of great rejoicing.

Usually when someone considers a problem with "prosperity" teaching, they think that someone has the wrong motive and that it's to satisfy a love of money.

I do believe that some things generally received in the church about finances are incorrect, but I still believe in prosperity and every other verse in the Bible about money. They're all true.

I like what Gary Carpenter said about the rich man who asked Jesus what he needed to do. He didn't want to hear about giving everything away. He liked the law's system of blessing. But what Jesus offered him wasn't going to make him poor. It just was going to change what (actually Who) the man trusted to provide for him.

The word "all" keeps appearing in the Word when it comes to blessings and it leaves no one shorthanded. But we have to learn that we live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God to move into our inheritance.

 

[Truthfrees]

I just wanted to learn a few things. Sorry if a heated debate happened.

Your OP asked for comments from those who are against the "prosperity gospel".

You were misinformed about WOF.

If you read our sof with an open mind, asking the Lord to tell you what HE says, HE will explain HIS scriptures to you.

If you believe the internet nonsense about WOF, you will continue to be misinformed.

If you have questions about what we really believe, we would be glad to answer them for you.

 

[LilLamb219]

MOD HAT ON
UPDATED MOD HAT:

This thread has been moved from the Word of Faith to Spirit Filled / Charismatic Debate forum.

Please remember the rules as you post.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"and shall not doubt in his heart,"

This is the ignored part of the process. If you don't have THAT, then you have no basis to claim anything else about the promise.

Simple as that.

 

[JGiddings]

I didn't want a debate (this being moved to the debate forum) I just wanted answers to things I don't know about, but the internet gives false info about WoF all the time. I just wanted to hear it straight from you guys...so thank you all for your responses but I am out.

 

[ARBITER01]

I didn't want a debate (this being moved to the debate forum) I just wanted answers to things I don't know about, but the internet gives false info about WoF all the time. I just wanted to hear it straight from you guys...so thank you all for your responses but I am out.

It's not necessarily false that this was a teaching in those circles for many years. There are many clips on youtube discussing this matter.

 

[Truthfrees]

I didn't want a debate (this being moved to the debate forum) I just wanted answers to things I don't know about, but the internet gives false info about WoF all the time. I just wanted to hear it straight from you guys...so thank you all for your responses but I am out.

I just wanted to learn a few things. Sorry if a heated debate happened.

I know this subject has probably been talked to death. I have a question though. I see that prosperity teaching is not just associated with Word of Faith churches. Many denominations teach it.
I want to know that you guys who are against it think about how it's affecting your churches.
Serious question, no mocking on my part. Very curious about this.
Thank you for any answers.

Debate happens when non-wof CLAIM to know what wof believe.

WOF believe:
6. We believe prosperity is always God's will for all believers; for the whole person, spirit, soul, and body. The Lord has pleasure in the prosperity of those who serve Him. (3 John 1:2, Psalm 35:27)


This isn't the same as the "prosperity gospel".

We don't teach the "prosperity gospel" in our churches.

So your question, as asked, attracts non-wof like flies, bringing debate into our forum.

We teach "prosperity for the whole man". It gives us the abundant life the Lord JESUS CHRIST talks about.

You won't find ANY wof against the Lord blessing the whole man, and you asked that only those who are against prosperity to post in your thread.

"The blessing of the LORD brings wealth, And he adds no trouble to it." - Proverbs 10:22

"Let the Lord be magnified, Who has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant." - Psalm 35:27

"Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers." - 3 John 1:2

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." - John 10:10

 

[Truthfrees]

In our sof are links to a few of the many scriptures confirming our beliefs.

You can left click the scripture links and it will open up the scripture for you.

Word of Faith Statement of Faith Word of Faith - a forum for all Word of Faith Christians to discuss and fellowship.

A few things to know about us:

Word of Faith Statement of Faith
1. We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by His blood, and shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5:9, Romans 10:9-10)

2. We believe that we are new creatures made righteous with Christ's righteousness, which is not of ourselves. We are not "unworthy new creatures" nor "sinners saved by grace". We were once sinners, but now we are saved by grace; our spirits born again, created in righteousness and true holiness; Sons of God, and joint heirs with Jesus.(2 Corinthians 5:17, Philippians 3:9, Ephesians 2:5-8, Ephesians 4:24, Galatians 4:6, Romans 8:17)

3. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration, and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return. (John 17:17-19)

4. We believe the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is a gift from God to all believers in this dispensation. It is received separately from the new birth, and is accompanied by the ability to speak in other tongues, as the Holy Spirit Himself gives utterance. (John 15:26, Acts 2:4)

5. We believe that water baptism should be by immersion in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It is a symbol of the Christian's identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. (Matthew 3:16, Romans 6:1-4)

6. We believe prosperity is always God's will for all believers; for the whole person, spirit, soul, and body. The Lord has pleasure in the prosperity of those who serve Him. (3 John 1:2, Psalm 35:27)

7. We believe divine healing is always God's will for all believers; for the whole person, body, soul, and spirit, and is wrought by the power of God. Jesus healed all who were oppressed of the devil. (Acts10:38, 1 Peter 2:24)

8. We believe that all of the Promises of God are always yes and amen, never no; that they are provided for in the atonement of Christ, and are the privilege of every member of the Body of Christ today who will receive them by faith. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

9. We believe that the faith to receive any of the Promises of God comes from hearing God's Word alone; that God's Word is alive and powerful, and every Promise therein contains the faith of God, sufficient to bring itself to pass in the life of any person who believes His Promise in their heart, and confesses it with their mouth. What God has so wonderfully provided by His grace we receive by faith. (Romans 10:17, Hebrews 4:12)

10. We believe that in all things pertaining to life on earth, God is the Author of all that is good; it is only the devil who comes to steal, kill and destroy. God never tempts us, nor uses any element of the curse (Deut. 28) to teach us; He only teaches us by His Holy Spirit revealing to us, the truth of His Holy Word. (John 10:10, James 1:13, Psalm 119:105, John 16:13, Deuteronomy 28)

11. We believe God gave all mankind free will and dominion over the world that we live in; and gave all Christians His kingdom authority and power, to walk as Sons of God, in the steps of Jesus, Who was our example in all things. By way of the leading of the Holy Spirit, we are to take dominion over circumstances and situations, and enforce His Covenant Promises on earth, through the power of His Words spoken out of our mouth. We believe that when we speak in full agreement with His Word, we can have what we ask. (John 1:12, Mark 11:22-24, Luke 9:1, James 4:7, 1 John 3:22)

12. We believe Jesus, in His life and ministry on earth, demonstrated God's perfect will for the earth in all matters for all time. He was made to be sin for us, and was spiritually separated from the presence of the Father on the cross in our place; He descended into hell, was raised up by God the Father, loosed from the pains of death, and was the firstborn from the dead. (John 14:9-12, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, Acts 2:24, Colossians 1:18)

13. We believe that all scripture, comprised of the 66 Books of the Bible (no apocrypha) from Genesis to Revelation, is the Word of God, and is our final authority over all else for determining faith and practice.


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All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic

 

[Optimus Fortis]

The gospel to the poor. That's something each person who might take issue must decide what it truly means. What is the good news to a poor person?

The "acceptable year of the Lord" is understood to be the year of jubilee. This is where all debts are cancelled and everyone has their inheritance returned to them. It's a time of great rejoicing.

I hear a lot of controversy about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' (a term which those who believe that God prospers never use) but the same people never condemn usury. They would adjudge people who believe that material prosperity is part of the New Covenant as greedy but they'd think nothing of the man who gets rich without raising a finger by loading usury onto the poor.

How many people here have money in a savings account where they hope to 'earn' 5% usury? In most of Christian history, this was seen as the sin of sodomy.

 

[Digout]

Your both ignorant of any Gospel truth

Hardly!

 

[Digout]

I hear a lot of controversy about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' (a term which those who believe that God prospers never use) but the same people never condemn usury. They would adjudge people who believe that material prosperity is part of the New Covenant as greedy but they'd think nothing of the man who gets rich without raising a finger by loading usury onto the poor.

How many people here have money in a savings account where they hope to 'earn' 5% usury? In most of Christian history, this was seen as the sin of sodomy.

Valid points to ponder about! I understand that many Islamic banks do not give interest for the deposits!

 

[Alive_Again]

I hear a lot of controversy about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' (a term which those who believe that God prospers never use) but the same people never condemn usury.

The whole "prosperity gospel" thing is so vague, yet it always seems to carry the suspicion of wrongdoing, covetousness, pride, etc. Anyone who drops it should define it.

The Isaiah passage Jesus preached includes a message of financial prosperity to the poor. It doesn't mean you'll be filthy rich. Why would God you something that would send you to Hell? But He owns it all, and as His heir and a joint-heir with Jesus, so do you. Ponder that for a bit.

The character of God is impeccable and He wants the same for His children. So learning to be a yielded vessel is the first priority. At the same time, He wants to educate His children that they do own everything and provision is not an issue. It is absolutely necessary to get things done in this world. It must be believed first, and for that to happen, you have to have a preacher (and somebody who isn't afraid to bring up the subject).

It's good news and no one should be talked out of it, not for any implied wrongdoing, or any other reason. We're not called to look at others either and any mistakes they're making, or that we think they're making. You cannot see in the heart (on your own), and you'll be free'er not carrying the burden of suspicion about what others seemingly believe and adhere to.

The whole concept of usury is an interesting one. I don't believe it is intrinsically wrong to charge interest on a loan. That's how houses are bought. If your brother for personal reasons borrows money, I don't think interest should be charged.

On a professional thing in the world, the Jews were the ones who loaned money in the Middle Ages (because of the usury thing). It was looked down on back then. They were allowed to prosper doing this. When large debts were accrued at some points in history, they would be run out of town (loosing themselves from the debt at the same time).

Overall, people should just leave the "bad taste" part about how others see handle money. It keeps us from making unrighteous judgments about others and keeps your perspective pure. If' we're concerned about what the Lord wants from us (His plan in our lives), that should be well enough for us to be concerned over. It puts our flesh out of the way in the matter and leaves room for Him to actually give untainted wisdom about it.

We know what the fruits of wisdom are too. Just think of what Solomon had. The spirit of wisdom speaks too, to the simple ones and beckons us to reap similar rewards, but for the matters of the heart first, and the vision of prospering the kingdom (with money and our time and talents) as the highest priority.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

Valid points to ponder about! I understand that many Islamic banks do not give interest for the deposits!

Yes in Islam, usury is known as riba and is forbidden. An interesting study is to look into how much the "War on Terror" is in fact the expansion of the usurious central banking system into Muslim countries through British and US military power.

The NIV translates usury as "excessive interest" which helps to keep open the legal loophole that bankers have got through since the Medici Pope Leo X. They will have less chance of squeezing through the eye of the needle though.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

@Alive_Again I really think that if everyone emptied from their heads everything that they've heard about prosperity being part of the New Covenant (pro or contra) and reread the entire Bible from cover to cover, it would become clear that Yahweh has always prospered His servants.

Jesus declaring Jubilee when he announced the coming of a new covenant is very telling. Even the Babylonians from where much of the present financial system comes from had jubilee years (in fact jubilee years were common in antiquity) as they knew that usurious debts would eventually become mathematically impossible to repay. The ancient kings could do this because their states created the money in the first place. Today Obama has to keep raising the debt ceiling and QEII's jubilee year had nothing to do with debt annulment because the US and British states have given the power to create interest bearing money to the private central bank system.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I hear a lot of controversy about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' (a term which those who believe that God prospers never use) but the same people never condemn usury. They would adjudge people who believe that material prosperity is part of the New Covenant as greedy but they'd think nothing of the man who gets rich without raising a finger by loading usury onto the poor.

How many people here have money in a savings account where they hope to 'earn' 5% usury? In most of Christian history, this was seen as the sin of sodomy.

This seems a rather silly argument.

Theologically, the usury laws are part of the Obsolete Covenant, and so not directly relevant to Xians.

Practically, the case of individuals lending to other individuals is very different from organizations such as banks. You are in essence arguing that banks should not even exist. They charge interest on loans, they pay (minute) interest on accounts. The alternative to interest is charging much higher flat fees for various services, right? Is that really an improvement?

 

[now faith]

I hear a lot of controversy about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' (a term which those who believe that God prospers never use) but the same people never condemn usury. They would adjudge people who believe that material prosperity is part of the New Covenant as greedy but they'd think nothing of the man who gets rich without raising a finger by loading usury onto the poor.

How many people here have money in a savings account where they hope to 'earn' 5% usury? In most of Christian history, this was seen as the sin of sodomy.

This may seem over simplified yet critics of prosperity teaching always exempt themselves
Of their own financial endeavors.
We teach more than wealth is considered prosperity,we teach as John stated ,financial,physical and spiritual prosperity is God's will.

To me a man of God should be a example of God's goodness,not in lack of anything.
People are to greedy themselves to accept those who are blessed with abundance are also
Abundant givers themselves.

You will always reap what you sow,what ever it is.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

This seems a rather silly argument.

Theologically, the usury laws are part of the Obsolete Covenant, and so not directly relevant to Xians.

Practically, the case of individuals lending to other individuals is very different from organizations such as banks. You are in essence arguing that banks should not even exist. They charge interest on loans, they pay (minute) interest on accounts. The alternative to interest is charging much higher flat fees for various services, right? Is that really an improvement?

In the Old Covenant, the prohibition on usury forbade lending to those under the protection of Yahweh. This included strangers who were living under the protection of Israel. Usury was permitted towards the Canaanites which Israel was at war with. That God has established usury as a weapon of war to be used against a group marked for extermination is very clear.

A casual read through Ezekiel shows that a major charge that God made against Israel and Judea was usury and the non-observance of jubilee years. Slaves that Yahweh declared free were still in bondage. Israel and Judea were taken captive to Babylon.

You talk of an obsolete covenant, Jesus talked of a New Covenant that fulfilled it by "loving one's neighbour as oneself" and to "owe no man anything except love" and to "lend expecting nothing in return." He is our Jubilee and Redeemer. No son of the kingdom should be held captive in the usurer's pawnshop.

Banks have existed before usury laws were relaxed under the pretence of helping the poor in 1515. Their investments took on equitable risk in that they shared any profit and any loss. This is what Shakepeare meant when he wrote: 'Shylock expects his reward even though Antonio's ships were on the rocks.'

 

[Optimus Fortis]

This may seem over simplified yet critics of prosperity teaching always exempt themselves
Of their own financial endeavors.
We teach more than wealth is considered prosperity,we teach as John stated ,financial,physical and spiritual prosperity is God's will.

To me a man of God should be a example of God's goodness,not in lack of anything.
People are to greedy themselves to accept those who are blessed with abundance are also
Abundant givers themselves.

You will always reap what you sow,what ever it is.

Any prosperity teaching that I have read or heard states that financial prosperity is the lowest form of prosperity but if someone isn't prospering at this lowest rung, it is very difficult to live out a normal life never mind being a blessing to others.

Yet while the Christian who believes that God wants to meet our needs and those around us, is reading scripture on the matter, believing it, praying and giving to church and to the poor, he is condemned as greedy by others. A closer look at his opponents' financial affairs would likely show that he indulges in petty usury in an effort to "reap where he did not sow."

 

[now faith]

Any prosperity teaching that I have read or heard states that financial prosperity is the lowest form of prosperity but if someone isn't prospering at this lowest rung, it is very difficult to live out a normal life never mind being a blessing to others.

Yet while the Christian who believes that God wants to meet our needs and those around us, is reading scripture on the matter, believing it, praying and giving to church and to the poor, he is condemned as greedy by others. A closer look at his opponents' financial affairs would likely show that he indulges in petty usury in an effort to "reap where he did not sow."

That's very good insight on your part and I agree.
Money for me is the least my woes.

I have lost all my material goods,and God restored me in less than 3 years.
What critics do not understand is the giving,so they rail away at the receiving.

Our ministries are far more than financial.
It hurts when your trying to convince a person that it's God's will for their healing,and they roll their eyes and continue to suffer.

If they can begin to understand the financial aspect of kingdom principles their faith begins
To grow in other areas.
It is illogical to speak of lack ask for offerings then criticise those who receive.
They have lack because they speak against what they hope for.
It makes no sense whatsoever.