A Pondering of the Peculiar (3)

[GenemZ]

You avoided the question at hand. Could you be wrong about your beliefs (your belief in a God)?

I have been wrong. Yes. I have been about some things. But, that is a loaded question potentially.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I don't know.

Do you see religious people argue that Mary wasn't a virgin?

Not a lot, but what I have seen from the Mormon religion, they might suggest that (I felt racist reading some of that stuff, just from reading it. I don't think I can express the extent of my dislike of the Book of Mormon without violating some rule of the site because it is technically a sect of Christianity).

 

[PsychoSarah]

I have been wrong. Yes. I have been.

Referring to when you were Jewish?

 

[Davian]

No one knows who the Father is except the Son
and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

And, as you said, it is impossible to show that your god has revealed himself to yourself by himself? Why then should I believe you?

And you have no other evidence for gods?

period.

Because writing out your punctuation makes up for the weakness of your arguments.

 

[Davian]

Its why Christians have gone and split into countless denominations. One that fits them like mud does a pig. They do not want truth beyond the ABC's. Just enough to make them feel righteous about themselves.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a
great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
​

It happened. Yes.


God has no illusions as to what believers can do. God calls them stupid.

Proverbs 12:1

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.


​

Keep in mind.. They are still going to Heaven.

Do they say the same about you?

 

[GenemZ]

Referring to when you were Jewish?

No... As a Jew I might as well have been an atheist.

After becoming a Christian I had my own ideas about certain things in regards to God. Many seek out teachings to reinforce their own way of seeing things. I was jolted over the years by various teachers who were skilled and well trained to exegete the Scriptures from the original languages. It actually scared me a bit to see how I just could not have known, and felt beyond stupid during the moment of corrections. That is where most Christians lock horns with God's Word and hide behind the skirt of their church's dogma that defends their own way of seeing things. I have seen it many times. Sometimes I could not understand what the big deal was, but certain Christians would get huffy when their pet beliefs were exposed as not being according to the Word of God.


Here is the big lesson that many Christians refuse to learn..

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

​

That could not be more true. When God's Word is taught exegetically (requires a teacher who is a dedicated scholar, not a fundy preacher) words that we see in the English translations begin to be seen as only a surface view of things.You just could not have known what was there unless someone with the know-how and skill dug it out for you. Someone with the gift to do so and dedicated his life to study and teaching. Not what we find in most churches these days.

When I began learning from such teachers, I suddenly found myself in deep need to prove what was said. I began seeking out and using reference books. Books that before the challenges came my way, seemed dead and dull, and for someone else. Now they were alive to me. It was to me like finding hidden treasure maps.

 

[bhsmte]

I have been wrong. Yes. I have been about some things. But, that is a loaded question potentially.

Its a simple question and I am sure you have a truthful answer for it, for you specifically.

But I understand, most of the time, when I ask this question to Christians, they either ignore it, give a reason for not answering it, or when pressed they usually state no, there is zero chance they could be wrong about their belief in God.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No... As a Jew I might as well have been an atheist.

After becoming a Christian I had my own ideas about certain things in regards to God. Many seek out teachings to reinforce their own way of seeing things. I was jolted over the years by various teachers who were skilled and well trained to exegete the Scriptures from the original languages. It actually scared me a bit to see how I just could not have known, and felt beyond stupid during the moment of corrections. That is where most Christians lock horns with God's Word and hide behind the skirt of their church's dogma that defends their own way of seeing things. I have seen it many times. Sometimes I could not understand what the big deal was, but certain Christians would get huffy when their pet beliefs were exposed as not being according to the Word of God.


Here is the big lesson that many Christians refuse to learn..

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

​

That could not be more true. When God's Word is taught exegetically (requires a teacher who is a dedicated scholar, not a fundy preacher) words that we see in the English translations begin to be seen as only a surface view of things.You just could not have known what was there unless someone with the know-how and skill dug it out for you. Someone with the gift to do so and dedicated his life to study and teaching. Not what we find in most churches these days.

When I began learning from such teachers, I suddenly found myself in deep need to prove what was said and began seeking out and using reference books, that before the challenges came my way, seemed dead and dull and for someone else. Now they were alive to me, and was to me like finding treasure maps.

Ever notice that the Ten Commandments people put up in public aren't technically the Ten Commandments named in the bible and put on stone tablets? Another atheist on here pointed it out to me, and I looked at Exodus myself.

 

[GenemZ]

Do they say the same about you?

Why should that make any difference? Your looking at this from a perspective that means nothing to me.

 

[GenemZ]

Ever notice that the Ten Commandments people put up in public aren't technically the Ten Commandments named in the bible and put on stone tablets? Another atheist on here pointed it out to me, and I looked at Exodus myself.

How is that addressing what I said? oh well...

You mean they need to be presented on stone? Yet, what was on stone got transferred to the Torah. After all, that is how we know they were originally on stone tablets!

Tell me please what it is you are getting at?

 

[GenemZ]

Its a simple question and I am sure you have a truthful answer for it, for you specifically.

But I understand, most of the time, when I ask this question to Christians, they either ignore it, give a reason for not answering it, or when pressed they usually state no, there is zero chance they could be wrong about their belief in God.

One moment... My belief in God is one thing. That is what you were asking me? What I believe about God has been wrong at times. But, I have no doubt in God being real. But, it was a maturing process. I went through a period wondering if my mind was playing tricks on me to get me convinced God is real. I had those moments. And, that's all they were. Moments.

If a younger me had asked the older me the same question, the younger me would have been perplexed with the answer. Then the younger me would have begun rationalizing reasons why the older me needs to convince myself.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You mean they need to be on stone? Yet, what was on stone got transferred to the Torah. Mind telling me please what it is you are getting at?

Ok, so we look at Exodus in the bible. The Ten Commandments are listed in verse 20, right? Well, those are a list of rules, but they are never named as the Ten Commandments nor are they written on stone tablets. The only reason I think people believe those are the Ten Commandments is that they are listed off right after the purpose of the passages is labelled, so the words Ten Commandments happen to be right next to them.

As it happens, it isn't until Exodus 34 that Moses gets new stone tablets (because he broke the first) with the commandments listed out and named as the Ten Commandments. Now, here is this so you can look at any bible translation you like of these verses Exodus 34 NIV - The New Stone Tablets - The LORD said - Bible Gateway (link in NIV version) and here is the entire verse 34 for all to see in the New King James Version (well, all that you need to see the real Ten Commandments, anyways):



34 And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke. 2 So be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself to Me there on the top of the mountain. 3 And no man shall come up with you, and let no man be seen throughout all the mountain; let neither flocks nor herds feed before that mountain.”

4 So he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.

5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

8 So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped. 9 Then he said, “If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance.”

The Covenant Renewed

10 And He said: “Behold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the Lord. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you. 11 Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. 12 Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. 13 But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images 14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), 15 lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods and make sacrifice to their gods, and one of them invites you and you eat of his sacrifice, 16 and you take of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters play the harlot with their gods and make your sons play the harlot with their gods.

17 “You shall make no molded gods for yourselves.

18 “The Feast of Unleavened Bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, in the appointed time of the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

19 “All that open the womb are Mine, and every male firstborn among your livestock, whether ox or sheep. 20 But the firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb. And if you will not redeem him, then you shall break his neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.

“And none shall appear before Me empty-handed.

21 “Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.

22 “And you shall observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year’s end.

23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.

25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.

26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.[a]

 

[Davian]

Why should that make any difference?

Just curious. You did call them stupid.

Your looking at this from a perspective that means nothing to me.

Indeed, the perspective of not believing in things for which there is no evidence. It works for me.

Do you think of your beliefs as flawless?

 

[bhsmte]

One moment... My belief in God is one thing. That is what you were asking me? What I believe about God has been wrong at times. But, I have no doubt in God being real.

And, I do understand how that sounds like nonsense to your ears. If a younger me had asked the older me the same question, the younger me would have been perplexed. Then the younger me would have begun rationalizing reasons why the older me needs to convince myself.

I think you are making more of the question than you need to.

Let me give you an example; for me, I am 99% sure the Christian God does not exist and I base this on acquired knowledge and the realities of the world we live in. With that said, I admit, I could be wrong, but my confidence is quite high that I am not. Regarding a universal non-personal God, I am about 90% sure this God does not exist, but give him a much better chance of being true than the Christian God, but my confidence is still quite high, no God exists.

For you, it appears you are saying you are 100% sure that a Christian God exists, with zero chance of you being wrong. That's fine, thanks.

 

[GenemZ]

Ok, so we look at Exodus in the bible. The Ten Commandments are listed in verse 20, right?

Verse 20? What chapter? I really have no idea what it is you think you have found. Oh... you meant chapter 20! lol!


Look here:

Exodus 34

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.



I think part of the problem may be.. The ancient Jews did not always write things in chronological order. The way of thinking was not like ours. They would sometimes begin with the conclusion before going over what happened. And, sometimes, would just report as they would recall, and not in chronological order.

I know you wrote a lot of things. But, I am still not clear as to what it is you are after.

By the way... the stone tablets are mentioned all the way back in chapter 16. See what I mean about things not being listed chronologically?


34 As the Lord commanded Moses, Aaron put the manna with the tablets of the covenant law, so that it might be preserved. 35 The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a land that was settled; they ate manna until they reached the border of Canaan.


My pastor taught us about this issue with chronological orders. It was the Jewish way of thinking in that day. Just as the Greek word order in the Bible could at times drive us crazy if read literally as it was written.

 

[GenemZ]

I think you are making more of the question than you need to.

Let me give you an example; for me, I am 99% sure the Christian God does not exist and I base this on acquired knowledge and the realities of the world we live in. With that said, I admit, I could be wrong, but my confidence is quite high that I am not. Regarding a universal non-personal God, I am about 90% sure this God does not exist, but give him a much better chance of being true than the Christian God, but my confidence is still quite high, no God exists.

For you, it appears you are saying you are 100% sure that a Christian God exists, with zero chance of you being wrong. That's fine, thanks.

Ask God questions. Keep on asking. He will take care of that issue of doubt if your heart is in the right place. I can not help you to know God is real. I can only make you think that maybe I am delusional.


It all starts here:


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.

 

[PsychoSarah]

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.[a]

Follows those wonky commandments.

 

[bhsmte]

Ask God questions. Keep on asking. He will take care of that issue of doubt if your heart is in the right place. I can not help you to know God is real. I can only make you think that maybe I am delusional.

I was a Christian for most of my life, so I have been down that road.

In regards to being delusional, one doesn't have to be delusional to believe in something on faith, but there are some that are, no question.

 

[Davian]

Ask God questions. Keep on asking. He will take care of that issue of doubt if your heart is in the right place. I can not help you to know God is real. I can only make you think that maybe I am delusional.

Delusional (wiki) - a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

In that area you are making progress.

 

[GenemZ]

I was a Christian for most of my life, so I have been down that road.

Why? What made you a Christian? What kind of background was it?