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A Pondering of the Peculiar (3)

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GenemZ

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It just seems like a big debate about the finer points of Harry Potter's adventures.




Talking point # 664 from the atheist scout handbook. When you can not deal with what is discussed, just tell them the following..........
Your first task is to understand the basics of cladistics. Learn what synapomorphies and apomorphies are all about. Also learn how it differs from Linnaean taxonomy. That is, if it still interests you.
Your argument is pretentious. You should be debating bio-scientists with sort of line, not everyday Christians. Especially, if that is required to understand you.

You come here knowing that what you present will not be understood. You use it as a means to have a smoke screen. It still will not negate the notion that life with feeling, thoughts, and the ability to reason.. is only the result of electrical impulses and matter that was absolutely fortunate time after time, to form into all the vital organs, muscles, brain, eyes, nose, liver, kidneys, pancreas, gall bladder, spleen, lungs, genitals (never forget the genitals!) finger nails, hair, the various kinds of specialized teeth, lips, sinuses, lymph glands, bowels..colon... anus....etc.. all fell into place. And, by mere lucky random chance! foolish to think it could!



it all happened this way, you exceptionally bright kiddies...
...one day mysteriously, matter was there.

mysteriously, this planet was here too (don't ask me how!)
and then, electricity came out of nowhere,
and zapped specific
chemicals that had existed, also out from nowhere..






AND, produced a foxhole for atheists to run down into!

the end.
 
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Davian

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You're taking it as a personal attack. Its nothing personal.

You said "Your projected image OF SUPERIOR wisdom does not work on Christians. For, what you claim is inane as you try real hard to create smokescreens with complex data. A little humility would do you a world of good. Have you evolved into having humility yet? Or, have you evolved out of humility?".

That is a lot of personal pronouns for something that was not personal. :wave:

The trouble begins when someone analyzes what many already know, but are not willing to express.

What is it that they are not willing to express? That your version of Christianity is right and science is wrong?
 
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Davian

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Taking point # 664 in the atheist handbook. When you can not deal with what is discussed, just tell them the following..........

Your argument is pretentious. You should be debating biological scientists, not Christians if that is required to understand you.

That is a false dichotomy. Biology is not atheism vs theism. Being Christian does not preclude one from the biological sciences.

Did you not see my earlier references to the works of Francis Collins, evangelical Christian, and American physician-geneticist:

"Collins uncritically accepts and summarizes the standard big bang story (pp. 71–78),7 then discusses the Anthropic Principle"

Harmony and discord: A review of Francis Collins' book The Language of God

"As someone who's had the privilege of leading the human genome project, I've had the opportunity to study our own DNA instruction book at a level of detail that was never really possible before.

It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming.

I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that."


Scientist Francis Collins on evolution science faith religion genome gene language of God - Beliefnet.com

You come here knowing that what you present will not be understood? ...
This is physical and life sciences sub-forum. Did you come here knowing that what you might be presented with might take some effort on your part to understand?
 
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GenemZ

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This is physical and life sciences sub-forum. Did you come here knowing that what you might be presented with might take some effort on your part to understand?



I can understand to a large extent what others say, if need be, with the help of Google.. I can also understand why the links you provided may accept some of the positions they do. What I do not understand is how to have enough instant knowledge of my own to see if they have any flaws in their premise.


'God Is Not Threatened by Our Scientific Adventures'
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Scien...cientific-Adventures.aspx#1JXb1VcGojJdRTBd.99


God created scientists! I am not anti-science. Scientists are Christians. I have known my share. Not all agree with your side, nor are they young earth creationists.

 
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GenemZ

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That is a false dichotomy. Biology is not atheism vs theism. Being Christian does not preclude one from the biological sciences.

Did you not see my earlier references to the works of Francis Collins, evangelical Christian, and American physician-geneticist:

"Collins uncritically accepts and summarizes the standard big bang story (pp. 71–78),7 then discusses the Anthropic Principle"


And, some Christians accept homosexual marriages. There are Christians that accept almost anything that the secular world agrees to. Christians are free agents. Many choose not to be, but God intends us to be. If not, there could be no accountability.
 
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PsychoSarah

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And, some Christians accept homosexual marriages. There are Christians that accept almost anything that the secular world agrees to. Christians are free agents. Many choose not to be, but God intends us to be. If not, there could be no accountability.

So you have no issue with other Christian sects, so long as they believe in god and accept Jesus as their savior that is enough for you? I don't get that impression.
 
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GenemZ

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So you have no issue with other Christian sects, so long as they believe in god and accept Jesus as their savior that is enough for you? I don't get that impression.


Simply put...

After regeneration a believer still retains his sin nature. He also never loses his volition.

Some believers remember how much they hated certain things about Christians before they were saved. They now fear receiving such hatred directed towards themselves. If they succumb to that fear, and not trust God?.. some will attempt to re-create Christianity in a manner as to avoid such opposition. They, in essence, try to become a type of carnal Christian they would have naturally liked before they were saved.

They remain saved from the Lake of Fire because of their belief in Christ. But, they will lose all special gifts that God had awaiting them personally.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Simply put...

After regeneration a believer still retains his sin nature. He also never loses his volition.

Some believers remember how much they hated certain things about Christians before they were saved. They now fear receiving such hatred directed towards themselves. If they succumb to that fear, and not trust God?.. some will attempt to re-create Christianity in a manner as to avoid such opposition. They, in essence, try to become a type of carnal Christian they would have naturally liked before they were saved.

They remain saved from the Lake of Fire because of their belief in Christ. But, they will lose all special gifts that God had awaiting them personally.

Considering heaven is paradise, I think they will be fine with those lost "gifts".
 
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GenemZ

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Considering heaven is paradise, I think they will be fine with those lost "gifts".

That is correct. Man was ultimately not created for this world. No more than a caterpillar was created for a cocoon.


Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there

will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any
mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed
away.”



Those who receive rewards will not be a cause of pain for those who failed to. No envy. Those who receive rewards will be a source of great joy to those who failed. An even greater joy than people who admired brave war heroes who defended their freedom from evil. Life will be where love will be like a child waking up refreshed running to go outside to greet the new day.

Love will be universal and like breathing for all. No fear. No need to learn how to be safe. No need to learn who to avoid. Its a foreign concept to us now. But, nothing will disappoint, nor grow old and break down. Its how God always intended man to be created for. That is why He must now weed out the kill joys.
 
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GenemZ

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Yes, I would like to see a creationist argue honestly for once.

The "Gap" may not have been refuted because there is not "There there." I have never seen the so called Gap laid out in what it claims. If no one bothers to say exactly what the Gap is it is not possible to debunk it.

For example if I claim that I can fly across the street but give no evidence nor tell how I would do it you would not be able to debunk that claim. If I said I could do it by flapping my arms you could debunk it. If I showed a small portable helicopter that I owned you might even admit that it was possible.

Without details no one can debunk your nonsense.


Where have you been? Where did you go?




I will try again..



The GAP understanding in creation is one showing that this world we now live in is not the first created world ever to have covered the surface of this planet. That there had been prehistoric worlds that were destroyed by God and buried beneath us.


Here it is again:
Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was desolate and empty, darkness
was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God
was hovering over the waters.

The translation ... desolate and empty,;... is mild compared to what the ancient Hebrew speaking reader saw in the text. It speaks of something much more severe.


God would not originally (in the beginning = Gen 1:1) create the world as some destroyed chaotic mess. Not one of manifested in wreak and ruin, also having an eerie sense of emptiness draped over it, giving a feeling of an aftermath of a burned out Hiroshima after the atomic explosion had settled down.

The earth was created by God in the *beginning.* (Genesis 1:1) At some undetermined time later on (Genesis 1:2) we find that it had become something that it was not created as being. It lay in a massive ruin, and in desolation.

Jeremiah gave that kind of warning! Rebellious Israel's warning about God's pending destruction of the apostate Jews. Those rebellious Jews had been saturating themselves in forbidden pagan sex rituals (which included the sacrificing of their children into fire).

God was angry with Israel. Jeremiah as God's spokesman, spoke to them the same exact Hebrew words that are to be found in Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:2 was not speaking about a simple act of creation. It was about judgment. Judgement of the severest kind.

The Jews grew up being taught the Torah from their youth. They knew that full implication of Genesis 1:2. It was giving them a panoramic view of an utterly destroyed earth after judgment. It was a sign of what can happen as a result of God's anger. The prior creation had been judged.

The Hebrew words Toho wabohu [desolate and empty] appear only together two times in the Torah. In Genesis 1:2. And, Jeremiah 4:23. Its no coincidence.


Jeremiah 4:23-24

I looked at the earth,
and it was desolate and empty; (Genesis 1:2)
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone. (Genesis 1:2)

I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.

Jeremiah prophesied to warn them of how they were teetering on the precipice their own destruction. To show them how serious it was, Jeremiah took them right back to Genesis 1:2! Genesis 1:2 was about what the creation had become. Not about how it was originally created to be. That would be like saying a car that came off the assembly line looked like a total wreck. Its not how it was originally made!

Proponents of young earth creationists for the large part, sad to say, are notoriously weak in the original languages of Scripture. They lean upon the King James or some other generic mainstream translation. It is one reason they remain young earthers. They can not connect with what Jeremiah was saying. Most likely because they were never taught much about Jeremiah!

Back then the Jews in Jeremiah's day intimately knew Hebrew. They certainly did. Genesis 1 was Sunday school teaching for them. They all knew it. Interestingly, Jeremiah had to add something after his warning taken from Genesis 1:2. He had to tell them, unlike what took place in Genesis 1:2. That God would not utterly and completely destroy them. For in Genesis 1:2 the earth lay in total destruction. They knew from the Hebrew what had taken place in Genesis 1:2.


Therefore, Jeremiah added...


Jeremiah 4:27

For thus says the Lord,
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute
a complete destruction.


The Jews understood the severity of the warning Jeremiah was giving them. For, he had referred to Genesis 1:2. That is why Jeremiah had to add an addendum. Telling them that unlike the the earth found in Genesis 1:2, in their case; God this time would not utterly destroy all of them as a people. That some Jews as a race would survive to perpetuate their people.

Genesis 1:2, speaks of a destroyed planet.
Not creation.

Genesis 1:2 enters into a scene showing a state of the aftermath of a complete and utter destruction of a previous creation.

A creation that had been on the face of the (prehistoric) earth. That is why we find such different types of lifeforms in the fossil evidence. Yet, also as found in the fossil remains, God worked with the same kind of genetic structuring and building blocks for biological life. He continued to use the same model for this present creation.

The prehistoric world included a humanoid type creature. One that Jeremiah alluded to in another passage. Such a humanoid is what we commonly refer to today as a cave man. All those humanoids were wiped out in the prior judgment. It was a very high order of animal, possibly the highest to date. One major difference. It had not been created in God's image as man is today. Man today has a soul that will exist forever.

What I just presented is found in Scripture. Been there for a very long time. It was there long before Darwin was born. So the Bible was not re-written to accommodate the theory of evolution as some claim when trying to block the GAP understanding.

What I just presented is only a tip of the iceberg in understanding prehistoric life.
 
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SkyWriting

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So you have no issue with other Christian sects, so long as they believe in god and accept Jesus as their savior that is enough for you? I don't get that impression.

Many of the saved lived before Jesus walked the earth.
Many of the saved will never hear about Jesus.

New International Version
For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities --his eternal power and divine nature--
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse.
 
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Davian

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I can understand to a large extent what others say, if need be, with the help of Google.. I can also understand why the links you provided may accept some of the positions they do. What I do not understand is how to have enough instant knowledge of my own to see if they have any flaws in their premise.
Yet you are not open to the possibility their positions that you disagree with may more accurately reflect reality than yours.

God created scientists!
Name one. All of the scientists that I am aware of had to go through significant effort, education, and expense to get where they are. Even Christian ones.

I am not anti-science.

From what you post, all I can see is that you are anti-science. You certainly are not showing where science has it wrong, just that you disagree with it.

Scientists are Christians. I have known my share. Not all agree with your side, nor are they young earth creationists.
That there are Christians that are not anti-science undermines your position.
 
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PsychoSarah

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That is correct. Man was ultimately not created for this world. No more than a caterpillar was created for a cocoon.


Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there

will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any
mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed
away.”



That is why He must now weed out the kill joys.

The way I understood it, the world was, in a way, created for humans, which wouldn't make much of a difference between that or humans being created for this world (one can assume one was created with the other in mind). Well, biblically speaking. As it happens, very little of our planet is naturally hospitable to humans, and even in those few areas life was a constant struggle without further advances in tools and agriculture.

What if I found crying pleasant? Or pain to be invigorating, what then?

Last time I checked, being a "kill joy" wasn't a sin. And if that were the case, you might want to watch out for yourself :p
 
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GenemZ

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What if I found crying pleasant?

Woman can cry when they are happy. The Bible was speaking of crying in the sense that most of us associate with frustration and pain.


Or pain to be invigorating, what then?

I guess you won't need coffee then.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Woman can cry when they are happy. The Bible was speaking of crying in the sense that most of us associate with frustration and pain.




I guess you won't need coffee then.

Oh, don't get sexist on me now, I was speaking figuratively. If there is anything I like that heaven might not allow for it is violent video games. A setting in which enemies can randomly explode like gory water balloons? Aaaaaaaawwwww Yeeeeaaah :thumbsup:

I don't drink coffee. And I don't like that slight suggestion of me being in pain later. If you are going to say I am going to hell, you might as well do so directly.
 
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GenemZ

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From what you post, all I can see is that you are anti-science. You certainly are not showing where science has it wrong, just that you disagree with it.

The excellent data science gathers and categorizes, I very much appreciate. Trouble happens when you automatically equate my rejecting of hypothetical conclusions by certain scientists, with rejecting science itself.

I see science as a very good thing. God created scientists. Created so we could begin to better understand to what fantastic depths of creativity God's hands brought forth for man to fathom.

The genome at present is only the Lord's version of Windows 1.0.

God also created genius. To have the common man get a small taste of how we are so limited standing in the presence of God. And, to make the genius see how difficult it must be for God to get the common man to understand Him. After all, a genius is no better than a common man in the sight of God.
 
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GenemZ

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Oh, don't get sexist on me now


I stated a known fact. Its not sexist in the least. Women have perplexed men in that they will cry when certain things make them happy. Evidently, it does not apply to all women.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I stated a known fact. Its not sexist in the least. Women have perplexed men in that they will cry when certain things make them happy. Evidently, it does not apply to all women.

I have seen men cry out of joy too, and for other weird reasons I don't get. The 1950s image of men and women isn't correct; it just encourages both to go against some of the things that come naturally to them to fit gender roles and stereotypes that are human designed institutions. The differences between men and women are trivial compared to the similarities.
 
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GenemZ

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I don't drink coffee. And I don't like that slight suggestion of me being in pain later. If you are going to say I am going to hell, you might as well do so directly.

wow... that thought never entered my mind. Not in the least. Something tells me maybe I should keep away from you if you can take what I say and twist it into what you just did.
 
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