Matthew 22, 23 and Rabbinic Authority

[mercy1061]

Yeshua likens the kingdom of heaven to banquets, marriage ceremonies, and/or formal gatherings (Matt 22, 23). We know at formal gatherings the seats are reserved for special guests. It would be an grievous offense for a "common person" to sit in a reserved seat for a special guest. Those "common persons" sitting in the wrong seat may be asked to move or kindly escorted outside the gate.

It is interesting however, the seat of Moses is really only one seat! I don't understand how the entire group of pharisees will be able to sit down in one seat designated solely for Moses. Moses sat down in his own seat outside the borders of Israel.

Ex 18
13 The following day Moshe sat to settle disputes for the people, while the people stood around Moshe from morning till evening. 14 When Moshe’s father-in-law saw all that he was doing to the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing to the people? Why do you sit there alone, with all the people standing around you from morning till evening?” 15 Moshe answered his father-in-law, “It’s because the people come to me seeking God’s guidance. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it comes to me; I judge between one person and another, and I explain to them God’s laws and teachings.”
17 Moshe’s father-in-law said to him, “What you are doing isn’t good.

I noticed how the people came to Moses to have their disputes settled; not that Moses ever forced his ideas on others. What kind of people did Moses choose to govern the people?

21 But you should choose from among all the people competent men who are God-fearing, honest and incorruptible to be their leaders, in charge of thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 22 Normally, they will settle the people’s disputes. They should bring you the difficult cases; but ordinary matters they should decide themselves. In this way, they will make it easier for you and share the load with you. 23 If you do this — and God is directing you to do it — you will be able to endure; and all these people too will arrive at their destination peacefully.”

I never read where Moses ever gave up his seat to another? In fact when he chose men he continued to judge the more difficult matters. When he sat in his chair, he sat alone with no one else.

Matt 23
5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin broad and their tzitziyot long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’


Yeshua's rebuke against the pharisees is that they teach a "limited" torah; they do not consider all of the holy elements in their instructions. They consider only the gold in the temple and only the gift placed on the altar. Not understanding it is the altar that makes the gift clean or holy; it is the temple that makes the gold holy. Abraham built the altar first, then he placed a gift on the altar. Solomon built the temple with precious stones.

16 “Woe to you, you blind guides! You say, ‘If someone swears by the Temple, he is not bound by his oath; but if he swears by the gold in the Temple, he is bound.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is more important? the gold? or the Temple which makes the gold holy? 18 And you say, ‘If someone swears by the altar, he is not bound by his oath; but if he swears by the offering on the altar, he is bound.’ 19 Blind men! Which is more important? the sacrifice? or the altar which makes the sacrifice holy? 20 So someone who swears by the altar swears by it and everything on it. 21 And someone who swears by the Temple swears by it and the One who lives in it. 22 And someone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and the One who sits on it.

The pharisees were commended for paying their tithes, but not with money! However they neglected the weightier matters of torah; "mercy", justice and trust.

23 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah — justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to — without neglecting the others! 24 Blind guides! — straining out a gnat, meanwhile swallowing a camel!

The ancient pharisees rejected John's water baptism unto repentance; instead they immersed themselves in study of the torah, yet they remained far from torah.

John 5
39 You keep examining the Tanakh because you think that in it you have eternal life. Those very Scriptures bear witness to me, 40 but you won’t come to me in order to have life!

 

[Yahudim]

I don't think you get it. Let me see if I can help.

*snip*

 

[mercy1061]

Moses never served as high priest over the people, he mostly judged civil matters, of course he represented the people before G-d. Moses did not need a foreign government permission to execute the death penalty. However Jethro was a high priest.

 

[Yahudim]

Yeah, naming that chair the 'Seat of Moses' was probably a mistake. They only did that to confuse us.

Moses never served as high priest over the people, he mostly judged civil matters, of course he represented the people before G-d. Moses did not need a foreign government permission to execute the death penalty. However Jethro was a high priest.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Help me to follow some of the discussion here. Is not much of the opinion being put forth here based upon this portion of Scripture:

"…You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" [The first and great commandment], "…And the second is like unto it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself" and "…on these two commandments hang all the law [Torah] and the prophets." (Matthew 22:36-40)

So, help me to understand: How do these verses fit in with other passages in the NT? For example, what are we to make of this small sampling?

“I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.
John 13:34 CJB

Is it not fair to understand this new command, since it is so similar to the second greatest command, as a new mitzvah, one that is even greater than "…as yourself…", and, since it is stated "as new" could it not be that Yeshua is here replacing the second table of Torah with, not a contradictory Law - but with even a higher Law?


And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. 1 Cor 9:20-21 NASB

AND:

Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. Gal 6:1-3 NASB

AND:

Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning [of Yeshua's ministry?]: that we should love each other 12 and not be like Kayin, who was from the Evil One and murdered his owonen brother. 1 John 3:10-12 CJB

AND:

Here is what love is: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the kapparah for our sins. 11 Beloved friends, if this is how God loved us, we likewise ought to love one another. 1 John 4:10-12 CJB

AND:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. Eph 5:25-28 NASB

So, I ask all of you, is it not valid to believe that the level of this second commandment ["…love...as yourself…] as given in Torah as one of its two foundational basis, has been raised by Yeshua, under the Law of Messiah, to even a higher standard [...gave Himself up for her... ] than that of the Torah?

In none of these passages above does Yeshua require us to place ourselves under Torah. He does not ignore Torah [gee, aren't you glad that I noticed that ] or disrespect it in any way. But, is it not made clear (at least to me) in other passages [i.e. Romans] that Torah is no longer our schoolmaster, with authority over us? I, myself, do believe that if we then take this teaching to mean that "school's out…" (As Alice Cooper would put it) or that Torah is a "bear trap" to be avoided (a common attitude in many (most?) gentile churches, then, in my opinion, we risk disrespecting Torah and will make more mistakes (sin more) than we need to as we learn to walk with our G-d. We SHOULD confer with Torah, to learn. But should we, possibly risking (if we are not very careful) acting as a voice for Torah's authority over us, insist (maybe I should say "over lovingly highlight from love - Hey, I once had to hunt all day in a cold rain because an older brother did the same ?) that all of the brethren should/must, follow Torah in keeping all of the mitzvot, including kosher eating and the Festivals? And if we do this onto others (and not for ourselves only) - especially those others who were not raised under these customs - are we not risking allowing Torah to become dominating over them, and not just their lawful guide? And is this risk not especially true for those who are still young and the weak in the faith - fellow believers, and therefore brethren, from both the Jewish and the Gentile communities? Is this wise? And are you who seem to be (I think that most, if not all posting here would deny this charge, but, I'm sorry, as one from outside your group: gee guys, this line is very blurry here...) proponents of this really THAT sure of your Scriptural arguments that you MUST (seem to? ) push this? Just wondering.

Blessings on all of you ,

Ken

 

[visionary]

Help me to follow some of the discussion here. Is not much of the opinion being put forth here based upon this portion of Scripture:

"…You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" [The first and great commandment], "…And the second is like unto it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself" and "…on these two commandments hang all the law [Torah] and the prophets." (Matthew 22:36-40)

So, help me to understand: How do these verses fit in with other passages in the NT? For example, what are we to make of this small sampling?

“I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.
John 13:34 CJB

Is it not fair to understand this new command, since it is so similar to the second greatest command, as a new mitzvah, one that is even greater than "…as yourself…", and, since it is stated "as new" could it not be that Yeshua is here replacing the second table of Torah with, not a contradictory Law - but with even a higher Law?


And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. 1 Cor 9:20-21 NASB

AND:

Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. Gal 6:1-3 NASB

AND:

Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning [of Yeshua's ministry?]: that we should love each other 12 and not be like Kayin, who was from the Evil One and murdered his owonen brother. 1 John 3:10-12 CJB

AND:

Here is what love is: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the kapparah for our sins. 11 Beloved friends, if this is how God loved us, we likewise ought to love one another. 1 John 4:10-12 CJB

AND:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. Eph 5:25-28 NASB

So, I ask all of you, is it not valid to believe that the level of this second commandment ["…love...as yourself…] as given in Torah as one of its two foundational basis, has been raised by Yeshua, under the Law of Messiah, to even a higher standard [...gave Himself up for her... ] than that of the Torah?

In none of these passages above does Yeshua require us to place ourselves under Torah. He does not ignore Torah [gee, aren't you glad that I noticed that ] or disrespect it in any way. But, is it not made clear (at least to me) in other passages [i.e. Romans] that Torah is no longer our schoolmaster, with authority over us? I, myself, do believe that if we then take this teaching to mean that "school's out…" (As Alice Cooper would put it) or that Torah is a "bear trap" to be avoided (a common attitude in many (most?) gentile churches, then, in my opinion, we risk disrespecting Torah and will make more mistakes (sin more) than we need to as we learn to walk with our G-d. We SHOULD confer with Torah, to learn. But should we, possibly risking (if we are not very careful) acting as a voice for Torah's authority over us, insist (maybe I should say "over lovingly highlight from love - Hey, I once had to hunt all day in a cold rain because an older brother did the same ?) that all of the brethren should/must, follow Torah in keeping all of the mitzvot, including kosher eating and the Festivals? And if we do this onto others (and not for ourselves only) - especially those others who were not raised under these customs - are we not risking allowing Torah to become dominating over them, and not just their lawful guide? And is this risk not especially true for those who are still young and the weak in the faith - fellow believers, and therefore brethren, from both the Jewish and the Gentile communities? Is this wise? And are you who seem to be (I think that most, if not all posting here would deny this charge, but, I'm sorry, as one from outside your group: gee guys, this line is very blurry here...) proponents of this really THAT sure of your Scriptural arguments that you MUST (seem to? ) push this? Just wondering.

Blessings on all of you ,

Ken

I would start with Christ's commands.... acknowledging that they are in harmony with the Fathers. Not a jot or tittle difference.

I would understand that as it has been stated, it really isn't "new" but the one you have heard in the beginning.

Besides, you should never forget the foundational education upon which your teacher has taught you the basics.

Hope that helps.

 

[daq]

In none of these passages above does Yeshua require us to place ourselves under Torah. He does not ignore Torah [gee, aren't you glad that I noticed that ] or disrespect it in any way. But, is it not made clear (at least to me) in other passages [i.e. Romans] that Torah is no longer our schoolmaster, with authority over us? I, myself, do believe that if we then take this teaching to mean that "school's out…" (As Alice Cooper would put it) or that Torah is a "bear trap" to be avoided (a common attitude in many (most?) gentile churches, then, in my opinion, we risk disrespecting Torah and will make more mistakes (sin more) than we need to as we learn to walk with our G-d. We SHOULD confer with Torah, to learn. But should we, possibly risking (if we are not very careful) acting as a voice for Torah's authority over us, insist (maybe I should say "over lovingly highlight from love - Hey, I once had to hunt all day in a cold rain because an older brother did the same ?) that all of the brethren should/must, follow Torah in keeping all of the mitzvot, including kosher eating and the Festivals? And if we do this onto others (and not for ourselves only) - especially those others who were not raised under these customs - are we not risking allowing Torah to become dominating over them, and not just their lawful guide? And is this risk not especially true for those who are still young and the weak in the faith - fellow believers, and therefore brethren, from both the Jewish and the Gentile communities? Is this wise? And are you who seem to be (I think that most, if not all posting here would deny this charge, but, I'm sorry, as one from outside your group: gee guys, this line is very blurry here...) proponents of this really THAT sure of your Scriptural arguments that you MUST (seem to? ) push this? Just wondering.

Blessings on all of you ,

Ken

Someone recently said in response to a post of mine in the GT board: "this is why the law is obsolete . it just doesn't produce the fruit that Jesus is looking for and leads to many withered fig trees". The poster may or may not have known it but this is an offense to all who uphold Torah in Messiah. When I responded something to the effect that "just because he was not bearing fruit" I myself was reported for flaming and my post was deleted. This is not complaining about the action, (and I was kindly "extended grace" by the moderators) but the point is that his post was the flame even though I did not report it. Here is why he and the many are incorrect in this particular thinking which also relates to what you have said about Galatians and the law being our "schoolmaster" to bring us to Messiah. This likewise relates to some of the comments made previously in this thread by both Phillip and myself concerning attention span. If only people would continue reading a passage until it is complete, (regardless of chapter and verse numbering which has been added for convenience) perhaps there might be much less division because of misunderstanding what the various authors are actually saying in the full context of their writings. Notice the discourse does not end at Galatians 3:29 but continues into the next chapter:

Galatians 3:24-4:2 KJV
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [GSN#3807 paidagogos] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Original Strong's Ref. #3807
Romanized paidagogos
Pronounced pahee-dag-o-gos'
from GSN3816 and a reduplicated form of GSN0071; a boy-leader, i.e. a servant whose office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor ["paedagogue"]):
KJV-- instructor, schoolmaster.

A "servant whose office it is to take the children to school" is a modern CROSSING GUARD:

The Law is your paidagogos-crossing-guard to bring you to Messiah Yeshua Faithfulness:
Without it one cannot come to Messiah but rather "climbs up into the fold some other way".

 

[mercy1061]

Help me to follow some of the discussion here. Is not much of the opinion being put forth here based upon this portion of Scripture:

"…You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" [The first and great commandment], "…And the second is like unto it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself" and "…on these two commandments hang all the law [Torah] and the prophets." (Matthew 22:36-40)

Now if all the law hang on a loose thin string attached to these two great commandments upon a wall or gate; do you wish to cut the string with scissors? If you do then we are left with the two great commandments still posted upon the door or gate.

So, help me to understand: How do these verses fit in with other passages in the NT? For example, what are we to make of this small sampling?

“I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.
John 13:34 CJB

We know Israel's wisest, King Solomon has already concluded there is absolutley "nothing new" under the sun. Yet we have Yeshua claiming to be giving them a so-called "new command" that sounds like the old command already posted upon their doors, gates, or walls. If it is truly a new command, then the old command must have been forgotten or else erased off their doors, gates or walls. Is the law posted on your door, fence, or walls as Moses has commanded? If not, then Yeshua's command may seem like a new command to you.

Is it not fair to understand this new command, since it is so similar to the second greatest command, as a new mitzvah, one that is even greater than "…as yourself…", and, since it is stated "as new" could it not be that Yeshua is here replacing the second table of Torah with, not a contradictory Law - but with even a higher Law?

When the old law has been erased from her mind; then it may seem like Israel's lover is singing his bride a new song.

And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. 1 Cor 9:20-21 NASB

AND:

Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. Gal 6:1-3 NASB

AND:

Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning [of Yeshua's ministry?]: that we should love each other 12 and not be like Kayin, who was from the Evil One and murdered his owonen brother. 1 John 3:10-12 CJB

AND:

Here is what love is: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the kapparah for our sins. 11 Beloved friends, if this is how God loved us, we likewise ought to love one another. 1 John 4:10-12 CJB

AND:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. Eph 5:25-28 NASB

We must be careful interpeting Pharisee Shaul's words outside the gates of torah, that is; Jacob marked or spotted the "stronger" sheep he kept for himself away from his uncle Laban the idol worshipper. Can the leopard lose or wash away his spots?

Gen 30
40 Ya‘akov divided the lambs and had the animals mate with the streaked and the brown in the flock of Lavan. He also kept his own livestock separate and did not have them mix with Lavan’s flock. 41 Whenever the hardier animals came into heat, Ya‘akov would set up the rods in the watering troughs; so that the animals would see them and conceive in front of them; 42 but he didn’t set up the rods in front of the weaker animals. Thus the more feeble were Lavan’s and the stronger Ya‘akov’s. 43 In this way the man became very rich and had large flocks, along with male and female slaves, camels and donkeys.

So, I ask all of you, is it not valid to believe that the level of this second commandment ["…love...as yourself…] as given in Torah as one of its two foundational basis, has been raised by Yeshua, under the Law of Messiah, to even a higher standard [...gave Himself up for her... ] than that of the Torah?

In none of these passages above does Yeshua require us to place ourselves under Torah. He does not ignore Torah [gee, aren't you glad that I noticed that ] or disrespect it in any way.

I am glad you noticed that these passages do not require us to place ourselves under torah.....

But, is it not made clear (at least to me) in other passages [i.e. Romans] that Torah is no longer our schoolmaster, with authority over us? I, myself, do believe that if we then take this teaching to mean that "school's out…" (As Alice Cooper would put it) or that Torah is a "bear trap" to be avoided (a common attitude in many (most?) gentile churches, then, in my opinion, we risk disrespecting Torah and will make more mistakes (sin more) than we need to as we learn to walk with our G-d. We SHOULD confer with Torah, to learn. But should we, possibly risking (if we are not very careful) acting as a voice for Torah's authority over us, insist (maybe I should say "over lovingly highlight from love - Hey, I once had to hunt all day in a cold rain because an older brother did the same ?) that all of the brethren should/must, follow Torah in keeping all of the mitzvot, including kosher eating and the Festivals? And if we do this onto others (and not for ourselves only) - especially those others who were not raised under these customs - are we not risking allowing Torah to become dominating over them, and not just their lawful guide? And is this risk not especially true for those who are still young and the weak in the faith - fellow believers, and therefore brethren, from both the Jewish and the Gentile communities? Is this wise? And are you who seem to be (I think that most, if not all posting here would deny this charge, but, I'm sorry, as one from outside your group: gee guys, this line is very blurry here...) proponents of this really THAT sure of your Scriptural arguments that you MUST (seem to? ) push this? Just wondering.

Blessings on all of you ,

Ken

School is never out, this is why Yeshua says to call no man your teacher or father, you have one father. Yeshua calls his followers, disciples, disciples mean students or learners. If there are many students in a class; all students do not earn an "A" in the class; some students even fail the class! This great class has one teacher or father whom issues an academic grade to each student. Some students do not come to class, other students refuse to do their homework or study for exams; in the end, only the graduates get to wear a robe at the formal graduation ceremony.

 

[daq]

PS ~ kcmonseysr, this is also why the Gospel is "to the Jew first" and why that statement is so misunderstood. Many westsiders when they hear this statement think to themselves: "Well it was to them first, but now that they are out of the way as of the first century, it is all for me" and that is clearly an exaggeration but perhaps this mindset might also be from where "replacement theology" has its origins. The fact of the matter imho is that the Gospel is "to the Jew first" because true Judaism is fully trained up, (read "schoolmaster") in TaNaK. For the same reason Cornelius was fully prepared to become "a son" when his alms came up before the Most High and the Malak appeared to him.

 

[kcmonseysr]

PS ~ kcmonseysr, this is also why the Gospel is "to the Jew first" and why that statement is so misunderstood. Many westsiders when they hear this statement think to themselves: "Well it was to them first, but now that they are out of the way as of the first century, it is all for me" and that is clearly an exaggeration but perhaps this mindset might also be from where "replacement theology" has its origins. The fact of the matter imho is that the Gospel is "to the Jew first" because true Judaism is fully trained up, (read "schoolmaster") in TaNaK. For the same reason Cornelius was fully prepared to become "a son" when his alms came up before the Most High and the Malak appeared to him.

daq,

Just a fairly off-the-top-of-my-head response for now, with, I hope maybe, a fuller response later when I've rested a bit .

I like you, do not subscribe to the "westsider" type of teachings.

And to you, and mercy, and visionary - I DO give you my thanks for your replies, and I would like to ask some more questions later on .

Blessings,

Ken

 

[annier]

Someone recently said in response to a post of mine in the GT board: "this is why the law is obsolete . it just doesn't produce the fruit that Jesus is looking for and leads to many withered fig trees". The poster may or may not have known it but this is an offense to all who uphold Torah in Messiah. When I responded something to the effect that "just because he was not bearing fruit" I myself was reported for flaming and my post was deleted. This is not complaining about the action, (and I was kindly "extended grace" by the moderators) but the point is that his post was the flame even though I did not report it. Here is why he and the many are incorrect in this particular thinking which also relates to what you have said about Galatians and the law being our "schoolmaster" to bring us to Messiah. This likewise relates to some of the comments made previously in this thread by both Phillip and myself concerning attention span. If only people would continue reading a passage until it is complete, (regardless of chapter and verse numbering which has been added for convenience) perhaps there might be much less division because of misunderstanding what the various authors are actually saying in the full context of their writings. Notice the discourse does not end at Galatians 3:29 but continues into the next chapter:

Galatians 3:24-4:2 KJV
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [GSN#3807 paidagogos] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Why did you stop here?
Continuing on........
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: {elements: or, rudiments}
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[daq]

Why did you stop here?

For one reason because it was enough to make the point that the chapter break is irrelevant and for another reason because, although we can go on with this for days, it is neither my OP thread start nor is it really "on-topic" imho. The appointed time in Galatians 4:2 is likewise prothesmios which is a predetermined set time like when a child, whether male or female, becomes an andri, (the genos that is neither male nor female but isangelos).

 

[visionary]

Why did you stop here?
Continuing on........
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: {elements: or, rudiments}
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

So you think the son is disobedient since He, according to the direction you are heading with this, has done away with the law and is no longer under it Himself, nor any of His followers??? Really..... a kingdom without structure, without guidelines, without laws, without statutes, without ordiances, without judges [since you have have that without the laws by which judgment is mad], without a moral foundation, without all that keeps it from being chaotic... Really... a kingdom where everyone goes their own way.. really...

There is only one place were there is no law...

Galatians 5:22-23
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[visionary]

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Messiah has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Messiah will profit you nothing. and I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You who have become estranged from Messiah, you who seek to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Look at the word "again" in verse 1. The Galatians were primarily non-Jews. They didn't observe Torah before being given faith in Yeshua. So the Torah couldn't be the yoke of bondage they were again being entangled in (and similarly, the "days and months and seasons and years" disparaged in Gal. 4:9-10 are not the Biblical festivals, either).So what was that bondage? Perhaps they were again giving away responsibility for their own spirituality. Perhaps they were in danger of exchanging the traditions of the Pagans for the traditions of the Pharisees thus trading one worship-by-appeasement for another, rather than finding rest in God's love.

To our modern ears, unfamiliar with the religious culture of Paul's time, this can sound like a warning against all Torah observance, and circumcision in particular. It could sound like that if we become circumcised, we will suddenly take on a debt that cannot be paid off. Someone could take it to mean that if anyone actually wants to do anything the Torah says, it is a sure sign they have come under bondage, fallen from grace, and become a stranger to the One who loves us.

But once we know that the Pharisees used circumcision as the final act when converting a Gentile to their form of Judaism, and that it was a public commitment to keep the whole Torah, things begin to get clearer. And when we understand that it also included what Yeshua called "the tradition of men" (what later became the Talmud), things become even clearer. Paul wasn't warning against the Biblical instruction of circumcision, or anything else written through Moses. Rather, he was saying don't exchange the gift of a life-changing relationship with Messiah for our own "works of Law": mere rule-keeping especially any efforts at rule-keeping by compulsion [our own or others].

Verse 4 doesn't say that wanting to do what is written in the Bible is the problem. Seeking to be justified by doing those things is like looking for rewards, not a good idea, because that is the not the purpose. As they are written on our hearts, we do the things instructed in Torah, it is not in order to be saved because Yeshua looked after that part, but because we delight in them and Him.

Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalm 40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psalm 119:70
Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law....77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight....92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction....174 I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 

[annier]

So you think the son is disobedient since He, according to the direction you are heading with this, has done away with the law and is no longer under it Himself, nor any of His followers??? Really..... a kingdom without structure, without guidelines, without laws, without statutes, without ordiances, without judges [since you have have that without the laws by which judgment is mad], without a moral foundation, without all that keeps it from being chaotic... Really... a kingdom where everyone goes their own way.. really...

There is only one place were there is no law...

I simply continued quoting scripture from where daq left off.... I said none of those things concerning those verses vis. You did????????????????

 

[Yahudim]

Boy am I glad!

Signed,
The OP.

 

[annier]

Look at the word "again" in verse 1. The Galatians were primarily non-Jews. They didn't observe Torah before being given faith in Yeshua. So the Torah couldn't be the yoke of bondage they were again being entangled in (and similarly, the "days and months and seasons and years" disparaged in Gal. 4:9-10 are not the Biblical festivals, either).

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak <772> and beggarly elements, where unto ye desire again to be in bondage?

So what was that bondage?

Their sin. Which the Levitical sacrifices could never take away

Perhaps they were again giving away responsibility for their own spirituality. Perhaps they were in danger of exchanging the traditions of the Pagans for the traditions of the Pharisees thus trading one worship-by-appeasement for another, rather than finding rest in God's love.

I think it might have to do with the next issue you bring up

To our modern ears, unfamiliar with the religious culture of Paul's time,

I think this is a large part of it vis. Galatians IMO speaks of the Levitical priesthood, and it's weakness to take away SIN.....Hence the bondage....

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness <772>and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. {an &#8230; : or, which passeth not from one to another}
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity <769> ; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

769 &#945;&#963;&#952;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#945; astheneia as-then&#8217;-i-ah

from 772; TDNT-1:490,83; {See TDNT 104} n f

AV-infirmity 17, weakness 5, disease 1, sickness 1, 24

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
1a) of the body
1a1) its native weakness and frailty
1a2) feebleness of health or sickness
1b) of the soul
1b1) want of strength and capacity requisite
1b1a) to understand a thing
1b1b) to do things great and glorious
1b1c) to restrain corrupt desires
1b1d) to bear trials and troubles

this can sound like a warning against all Torah observance, and circumcision in particular. It could sound like that if we become circumcised, we will suddenly take on a debt that cannot be paid off. Someone could take it to mean that if anyone actually wants to do anything the Torah says, it is a sure sign they have come under bondage, fallen from grace, and become a stranger to the One who loves us.

Turning AGAIN to weak and beggerly elements is to turn again for salvation from sins from the weak elements of the Levitical sacrifices of the priesthood.
That is a religious context of the first century scripture, the temple sacrifices of the priests. A weak and unprofitable element.

 

[daq]

Boy am I glad!

Signed,
The OP.

Funny thing is Phillip now with 20/20 hindsight I perceive ten or twelve more reasons why I stopped where I did. Perhaps if we both lean hard to the right we can pull this monster rabbit trail away from the gaping chasm which lies before us. With that I have something I would like to add to the following observation in the image file which you posted below:

I don't think you get it. Let me see if I can help.

With the accused in the center of the room there be seventy two brethren . . .

 

[visionary]

I simply continued quoting scripture from where daq left off.... I said none of those things concerning those verses vis. You did????????????????

I guessed that you were continuing to quote further into the scripture, to state what a lot of Christians use it for, I gave the response. Forgive me, if my second guessing was wrong.. Does that mean you are not taking the Torah "do away with" position?

 

[kcmonseysr]

Hi guys,

I just discovered a GREAT thread on this forum that some of you may really find interesting. It's thread number t7792724/ and is entitled Torah and its relationship with Gentiles.

I suspect (I've only begun to skim it myself) that many of the excellent issues being raised here at the moment may be covered there .

Just sayin' .

Blessings,

Ken