Who said Job was blameless?

[Setyoufree]

Job to God: "Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

In case anyone is not sure what Job meant by "blameless" he means without sin. See Job 33:8 below:

"But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin...."

Not only did Job claim to be "without sin", but he also "justified himself before God" [Job 32:1]

So Job does have a problem. He is self-righteous. He thought that he could justify himself before a Holy and righteous God.

Now don't get me wrong, Job believed in God. He was honest, but he was deceived. Saul, before he turned Paul, also believed in God, but both men were self-righteous and God had to correct them.

After Elihu & God talked with Job, Job had a change of heart. No longer did he claim sinlessness, but instead he repented of his self-righteous spirit and saw himself as "vile" (KJV) in comparison to the righteousness of God. (see Job 40:3/42:6)

 

[bmjackson]

You are so right, but these are words of a proud, arrogant man, 29:24 "When I smiled at them, they scarcely believed it; the light of my face was precious to them."

SHOW ME WHERE I SAID JOB WAS UNSAVED.
SHOW ME WHERE I SAID JOB WAS ROTTEN WITHIN.
I said Job was blameless in actions.
I said Job was not blameless in the heart or mind.

I don't understand how you can think that a man can avoid sin outwardly when his heart is not pure and moreso, never sin even on his own, so that Satan could accuse him, which he did not. Satan suspected that Job was good on the outside but imperfect within, as you are claiming, God proved him and the accusers wrong. In all these things Job did not sin. The contest was over at that point.

Moreover, God said that there was no man on earth like Job. Now why would He go and say a thing like that? When has there been a time when there were not proud and arrogant men and how could that never show in their actions, like when they would feel an entitlement to their desires and treat others accordingly? And how can a proud arrogant man be led by the Spirit as though these faults were just minor issues?

Job is recounting that his face shone but Moses' face shone too and it meant that the presence of God was with them. If a man has that it is not boastful to declare it as Job did with regret.

You say, Job was perfect, but needed improvement. I thought perfect meant as good as could possibly be. I thought you agreed with scripture that all have sinned but then you say Job was perfect and sinless. Which is it?

You err not knowing what scriptural perfection means, one can be without sin yet not fully matured and still needing to learn the many ways of God. A perfect man never is infallible.

How would you know it meant nothing to him to receive double?

You just dismiss words of scripture with pure conjecture. They are there for a reason. If it meant nothing to receive double, than God would not have given double. All knew in the time of Job that God blesses those as they obey his commands. Today we don't teach this concept, but back then it was very much in the minds of all. The people would have associated even more respect and honor to Job after his fortunes were restored with double.

I think that it is a fair assessment as Job was not concerned at losing all that he had therefore it was not that important to him.

Can you show me one place where the book of Job states God suffers the blameless?.

The fact that God took Satan on with the wager proved that

 

[bmjackson]

Anyone who disagrees with what I've stated will have to get by these key verses:

Job's self-righteousness:

"Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

God, through Elihu, rebukes Job:

Job 33:8 "But you have said in my hearing-- I heard the very words-- 9 'I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt."

Job 36:1 Elihu continued: 2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's behalf...

Job's problem:

Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.

Job repents:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 "Behold, I am vile..." Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"...

Job's wealth is restored:

Job 42:12 "The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first."

Conclusion:

When God said that Job was blameless, He was presenting Job's view of himself.

The point of the wager was that Job would sin when everything was taken away. He did not as scripture says but he did question why God had deserted him in his hour of need meaning that he justified himself over that point but then repented when God showed him that He must want God for Himself and not just His presence. He was only not in God's will when he got to that point.

 

[Setyoufree]

....he did question why God had deserted him in his hour of need meaning that he justified himself over that point but then repented when God showed him that He must want God for Himself and not just His presence.

What you wrote was totally meaningless.....

 

[Setyoufree]

Job to God: "Let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6] 'I am pure and without sin...." [Job 33:9]

So Job is OT equivalent of Saul in the NT. Look at the parallels:

Phil 3:4 If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless!

Was Saul, turned Paul, a believer in God like Job?

Yes: 1 Tim 1:14 "I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful (past tense - refers to Paul's preconversion) , appointing me to his service.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Likewise Job believed in God. However he too acted in ignorance....He too thought he was blameless before God.

1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves"

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I don't understand how you can think that a man can avoid sin outwardly when his heart is not pure and moreso, never sin even on his own, so that Satan could accuse him, which he did not. Satan suspected that Job was good on the outside but imperfect within, as you are claiming, God proved him and the accusers wrong. In all these things Job did not sin. The contest was over at that point.

Good analysis of the first two chapters of Job. Can you provide any insight to the other 40 chapters? The "contest" is not over till you die. Job did sin and repent of it in Chapter 42. There is a lot more to this story.

I say.
These are words of a proud, arrogant man, 29:24 "When I smiled at them, they scarcely believed it; the light of my face was precious to them."

You say.

Job is recounting that his face shone but Moses' face shone too and it meant that the presence of God was with them. If a man has that it is not boastful to declare it as Job did with regret.

So you finally admit that Job was boasting.
You say it was OK for him to boast because his face shone like Moses. Moses face shown after seeing the glory of God. Another one of your pure conjectures to say Job's face was literally shining. It is obvious in this case to be just a figure of speech. As far as you adding with regret, you are just making that up. That is not in scripture.

You err not knowing what scriptural perfection means, one can be without sin yet not fully matured and still needing to learn the many ways of God. A perfect man never is infallible.

More double-talk to get out of reconciling that all are sinful and you saying Job was sinless and ignoring how a blameless Job gets rebuked by a young man and even God himself for sinning.


Can you show me one place where the book of Job states God suffers the blameless?.

The fact that God took Satan on with the wager proved that

I was looking for an explicit verse because there are many explicit verses that say God suffers the guilty. None explicit in Job that God suffers the blameless.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Since this thread is so obsessed with blamelessness, let’s look at what some other scriptures say about it.

Genesis 6:9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

King David said this. 2 Sam 22:21 “The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. 24 I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin.

Ezekiel 14: 19 “Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath on it through bloodshed, killing its people and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.”

So in these texts we see other men held up in the Bible as righteous. The N.T. adds these; Lot, John the Baptist, Simeon and Cornelius the centurion as righteous. So we should not be so obsessed with the Bible saying Job was blameless. Nor should we think him perfect or sinless. King David spoke of being sinless and look at what a terrible sin he committed.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 reminds us of our sinful nature, “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.”

Looking at the Ezekiel passage we see that righteousness may save one from disaster but man’s righteousness cannot save another man.

If we study the story of a rich man’s question to Jesus in Mat 19, “what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” we see that man’s righteousness does not earn salvation. We further see an example of a man blameless under the O.T. law but still lacking in the heart. After claiming to have kept all the commandments he asked “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered with a test of his heart, how committed was it to God. “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” The rich man then went away sad because he had great wealth. We are left with the impression that his heart loved the riches more than God, although according to the law he was blameless. And I am sure this man was very well respected in the community.


Coming back to Job we have a blameless man’s heart tested. He was not asked to give up his riches, they were taken from him. During trials ones heart should not falter. If it does, it is weak. Regardless, trials give an indication of the strength of one’s heart. Job passed the first trial and this is said,
Job 1:22 “In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.”
After the second trial we have this recorded,
Job 2:10 “In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.”
Now the outright fail that Satan was hoping for was what his wife tested him with,
“Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!” Satan was hoping for Job to lose faith thereby gaining his soul.

The book of Job then has 30 chapters of “soul searching” where Job’s heart is revealed in conversations with 3 friends. It is not so strong. Job sins in both ways that he was cleared of initially in Job 1 and 2. He sins by what he says and Elihu rebukes him. He sins by accusing God with wrongdoing and is rebuked by God.

Job repents of his sin and learns to have complete trust in God’s plan. God restores Job’s fortunes double and Job is marked in history as one who persevered in suffering as recorded in James.

James 5: 10 “Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.”

Job persevered in that he did not abandon God in his trial even though he did question God’s plan and did sin. It is interesting that James says this was something that the Lord brought about and an example of his compassion and mercy. A man pure in heart does not need to suffer thereby showing God’s mercy. A man weak in heart that is tested and made stronger does show God’s compassion and mercy.

So what messages should we learn from Job?

Righteously following the laws does not save.

Do not boast of your righteousness.

God tests the heart.

We cannot doubt God’s justice or plan for us.

When tested it is to make us stronger and closer to God.
​

 

[MoreCoffee]

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Question:

Was this God's view of Job

or

was this Job's view of himself repeated to Satan by God?

Obviously it is what God said about Job to Satan. There's nothing in the passage or in the book of Job to suggest that it was not God's opinion of Job.

 

[Setyoufree]

Obviously it is what God said about Job to Satan. There's nothing in the passage or in the book of Job to suggest that it was not God's opinion of Job.

Wrong!

 

[Setyoufree]

Since this thread is so obsessed with blamelessness, let’s look at what some other scriptures say about it.

Genesis 6:9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

Blameless when compared to the people of his time....Not compared to God Himself.

24 I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin.

David was an adulterer and a murderer. So we must look at the context of your quote, because David was not without sin as Job claimed.

Ezekiel 14: 20... as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.”

Not sure of the version, but no one can be justified by their righteousness. Read Paul again and again. Only God is righteous...all others come short of God's agape.

So in these texts we see other men held up in the Bible as righteous

.

We are only righteous in Christ by faith alone. So these men were only righteous in the coming Messiah.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 reminds us of our sinful nature, “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.”

Bingo....In fact no one is living Christ's life. Romans 3:23 states all have sinned and all have failed to live a life of only agape love.

Satan was hoping for Job to lose faith thereby gaining his soul.

Right, but Job had a problem and he needed to repent of it....

He (Job) sins by what he says and Elihu rebukes him. He sins by accusing God with wrongdoing and is rebuked by God.

His sin also is that he justifies his righteousness before God. His problem was he was self-righteous, which is unrighteousness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wrong!

That adds nothing to the discussion.

Want to explain what you think is wrong and why you think it is wrong and offer some evidence to back your thinking?

 

[Setyoufree]

That adds nothing to the discussion.

Right, neither does your pronouncement.

I have already showed you that Job's problem was self-righteousness. You have my quotes, now disprove them if you can.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Right, neither does your pronouncement.

I have already showed you that Job's problem was self-righteousness. You have my quotes, now disprove them if you can.

If Job were self-righteous (which is a grave sin that Jesus rebuked in the scribes and Pharisees with very strong language) then why does God say this about Job?

Job 42:7-9 RSV 7 After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eli'phaz the Te'manite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." 9 So Eli'phaz the Te'manite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Na'amathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job's prayer.
​

 

[Setyoufree]

.. self-righteous (which is a grave sin that Jesus rebuked in the scribes and Pharisees with very strong language)

Yes, we agree here...

you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

Let's look at all the context:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand (i.e., like I am blameless), Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' 5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes." (Here Job repented of his self-righteousness)7 And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.

What did Job say of God that was right? It must be verse 2!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I see you fobbed off my question.

 

[Setyoufree]

I see you fobbed off my question.

How so?

 

[MoreCoffee]

How so?

By fobbing it off and substituting one of your own which you answered.

It would be helpful if you answered my question rather than one that you asked and pretended it was mine.

 

[MJohn7]

By fobbing it off and substituting one of your own which you answered.

It would be helpful if you answered my question rather than one that you asked and pretended it was mine.

Please don't fob.

 

[bmjackson]

I do not wish to continue the discussion as Setyoufree will not answer why God would say there was no man on earth like Job. I just don't like having discussions with people who will not abide by the rules of good etiquette and reasonableness. He is obviously not a truth seeker. I'm out.

 

[Setyoufree]

I do not wish to continue the discussion as Setyoufree will not answer why God would say there was no man on earth like Job. I just don't like having discussions with people who will not abide by the rules of good etiquette and reasonableness. He is obviously not a truth seeker. I'm out.

Rather self-righteous statement, Jackson. Birds of a feather flock together?

Self-righteousness is very natural. We are by nature legalistic - we think we are good, but God's law disagrees: "There is none (how many?)...none righteous, no, not even one." Trying reading Paul's statement over and over until it sinks in.

Again, God was presenting Job as Job presented himself to God. Keep in mind Satan is the accuser. It is Christ's work to present us blameless "in Himself" and not by our performance.

Satan is accusing all of us before God. I'm speaking of believers. He says we are sinners and therefore we should not have access to heaven and eternal life. His accusations are right, but because our faith is in Christ and not our performance Christ can vindicated us in Himself.


For those of you, like Job, who wish to vindicate yourself before God, He will present your righteousness before Satan as He did Job. In other words He will not vindicate you in Himself.


Given enough self-righteousness God will eventually remove Himself and trouble will come your way. Self-righteousness is essentially unbelief.