A Pondering of the Peculiar

[Lost Angel]

That is some serious quote mining. Total avoidance of the point made.

 

[biggles53]

Witches were burnt, were they?

(Please answer this according to your opinion.)

Gott mit uns got pwned by IN GOD WE TRUST.

Really....?

Didn't that become your motto some TEN YEARS AFTER the fall of the Nazis....??

Seems to me that a whole bunch of godless Russians were much more directly responsible.......

 

[GenemZ]

Is that why the devil is still out there being blamed by everything bad that ever happened? Because God can "crush it like a worm"?

No... the devil is out there because God allowed for an appeal to his verdict. Satan has been granted time for gathering evidence to try to prove his case. That is why we see in the Bible both Satan and fallen angels asking permission before they can do something. They're on a leash of God's.

You see.. God knows all things. The angels and fallen angels did not understand properly what it was Satan and his angels were judged for. They also did not understand the discipline the Lord applied in God's attempt to get Lucifer and his minions to repent and return to God. They even saw the discipline as unjust.

 

[GenemZ]

Well, it's not just atheists; there are plenty of people of different religions that are in the same boat.

What about the atheists that don't care to confront Christians about anything?

God uses what man wills to be. Not all atheists desire to confront Christians. Well..that's OK. God has plenty of others to go around. God also uses the belligerence of Muslims to test the faith of Christians. Communism is another. Take your pick. God has a big gymnasium for having his people exercise their faith.

 

[biggles53]

No... the devil is out there because God allowed for an appeal to his verdict. Satan has been granted time for gathering evidence to try to prove his case. That is why we see in the Bible both Satan and fallen angels asking permission before they can do something. They're on a leash of God's.

You see.. God knows all things. The angels and fallen angels did not understand properly what it was Satan and his angels were judged for. They also did not understand the discipline the Lord applied in God's attempt to get Lucifer and his minions to repent and return to God. They even saw the discipline as unjust.

Wild, unsupported assertions.....

 

[biggles53]

God uses what man wills to be. Not all atheists desire to confront Christians. Well..that's OK. God has plenty of others to go around. God also uses the belligerence of Muslims to test the faith of Christians. Communism is another. Take your pick. God has a big gymnasium for having his people exercise their faith.

Wild, unsupported assertions....

 

[GenemZ]

Wild, unsupported assertions....

And, Organic, too.

 

[driewerf]

Above are two posts, separated by a few pages of discussion. The two posters aren't a reaction to each other, but have the same theme: the christian god doesn't wanted the Crusades, or the Inquisition.

Let' us concede the point. God didn't want
- the Crusades
- the witch hunt
- the massacre of the Cathares
- the massacre at Munster against the Anabaptists
- the Thirty Years War between catholics and protestants
- the killing of doctors who perform abortions

But in all these cases, god remained silent. He let it happen. As if he either doesn't care (speaking of being pro-life!) or he is... absent.
If there is a god, he has to know that killing the infidels would damn them for eternity to hell. Instead of killing them, keep on preaching, talking and, even better -- evangelise by example. But no. God let it happen. Or was absent.

God works in ways that we will never understand.

What? Are you saying that killing the muslims, the cathares, the anabaptists was indeed a good thing, that tese were god's ways? You know, the loving mercifull god of christianity? That he indeed let it happen?

And children will all go to Heaven!

Not true. your very own religion states that you can only go to heaven through Jesus. Not by being a child. It means that children who die before they even now or understand chrsitianity are doomed to hell.

 

[driewerf]

Above are two posts, separated by a few pages of discussion. The two posters aren't a reaction to each other, but have the same theme: the christian god doesn't wanted the Crusades, or the Inquisition.

Let' us concede the point. God didn't want
- the Crusades
- the witch hunt
- the massacre of the Cathares
- the massacre at Munster against the Anabaptists
- the Thirty Years War between catholics and protestants
- the killing of doctors who perform abortions

But in all these cases, god remained silent. He let it happen. As if he either doesn't care (speaking of being pro-life!) or he is... absent.
If there is a god, he has to know that killing the infidels would damn them for eternity to hell. Instead of killing them, keep on preaching, talking and, even better -- evangelise by example. But no. God let it happen. Or was absent.

Habakkuk had the same dilemma.

Habakkuk 1:1 The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
Habakkuk 1:2 O LORD, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
Habakkuk 1:3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
Habakkuk 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

God's reply follows:

Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

You stopped at verse 5. Shall I continue with the next verses of the book Habakkuk?

For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.

7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.

9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.

So, by your answer you are not only admitting that god agreed with all the violence mentioned in my post. In the book Habakkuk god ir raising an army to commit violence. The only sad thing is that you were too shy to continue with the next verses.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, by your answer you are not only admitting that god agreed with all the violence mentioned in my post. In the book Habakkuk god ir raising an army to commit violence. The only sad thing is that you were too shy to continue with the next verses.

I actually did post those verses, then had a change of mind and went back and edited them out; since the point is:

God is not just sitting back passively doing nothing.

 

[anyathesword]

What? Are you saying that killing the muslims, the cathares, the anabaptists was indeed a good thing, that tese were god's ways? You know, the loving mercifull god of christianity? That he indeed let it happen?


Not true. your very own religion states that you can only go to heaven through Jesus. Not by being a child. It means that children who die before they even now or understand chrsitianity are doomed to hell.

Absolutly not!


Matthew 19:14 (NIV)
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

All children are not held accountable for their décisions until they are of age to understand and make a decision. ALL children go to Heaven!!

Because these killings happened, it doesn't mean it was a "good" thing, it just means it happened.

Check out this article of Biblegateway.com: Why Does God Allow Tragedy and Suffering? | Bible Gateway Blog

1. From the very beginning in Genesis chapter 1, God created a perfect world and He saw that it was good. There was no sin, no suffering, no disease, no death. He did not create suffering.

2. God gave us the free will to decide to feel His love or not. If God made us without free will, then it would not be love. Love is a choice. God did not create us as robots to repeat the words "I love you", He gave us the choice to choose it and to feel it.

3. Man sinned. Mankind has been sinning since the beginning after Adam and Eve. So now there are 2 kinds of evil now, MORAL and NATURAL.
So much of the world’s suffering results from the sinful action or inaction of ourselves and others.

“When we humans told God to shove off, He partially honored our request. Nature began to revolt. The earth was cursed. Genetic breakdown and disease began. Pain and death became part of the human experience.”[/INDENT]

4. "Some people ask, “Couldn’t God have foreseen all of this?” And no doubt he did. But look at it this way: many of you are parents. Even before you had children, couldn’t you foresee that there was the very real possibility they may suffer disappointment or pain or heartache in life, or that they might even hurt you and walk away from you? Of course — but you still had kids. Why? Because you knew there was also the potential for tremendous joy and deep love and great meaning."

5. Sometimes God can use suffering to turn it into good. But that's a promise for those that follow Him.
Romans 8:28: “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”

6. "God can use our suffering to draw us to Himself, to mold and sharpen our character, to influence others for Him – He can draw something good from our pain in a myriad of ways…if we trust and follow Him."

7. The day will come when God will judge.

"And the Bible says that the story of this world isn’t over yet. It says the day will come when sickness and pain will be eradicated and people will be held accountable for the evil they’ve committed. Justice will be served in a perfect way. That day will come, but not yet.

So what’s holding God up? One answer is that some of you may be. He’s actually delaying the consummation of history in anticipation that some of you will still put your trust in Him and spend eternity in heaven."







So why did all those things happen? Because of the evil act of the sinful man!!​

 

[anyathesword]

The point went soaring over your head.

God created hell. Hell is an eternal punishment for finite crimes called sin. I'm not arguing about freewill and whether he already knows who's going to hell and who's not. I'm arguing that he screwed up big time by creating hell in the first place. The fact that he created it for fallen angels and not humans is even worse because, according to the mythology, human souls still go there anyway.

That is not justice. That is sadism.

If he was't a villain, he could think of far more effective and humane ways to reprimand his creation if he felt in necessary. Alas, the character is far dumber than most reasonable modern people. That's the point I'm making.

If he didn't want humans to go to hell, then why is there supposedly still a hell after the crucifixion?

No, as AV so kindly pointed out some weeks ago, God PREPARED hell for SATAN and his Fallen angels!!! He did not create it. God created whatever is said in the first chapter of Genesis. He had to prepare this place for Satan who rebelled against Him and for those angels that interbred with human women and decided to follow Satan. They sinned and that is their judgement for eternity.
These angels (satan was an angel) sinned against God. Unfortunatly, man does the same and rebelles against God. So that's the place for them now, of their own choosing.

Well where do the evil Fallen angels stay and all the people that rejected God? They need to stay somewhere and it isn't going to be in God's holy house!!!

No God is brighter and smarter than you could possibly think that you could be as smart as you possibly think that you are. He knows what He is doing, He is in control.

 

[anyathesword]

All signs point to a sadistic, cruel and capricious God that tricks us and punishes us for his own entertainment. This has both Biblical textual support and real world evidence in the form of STDs, ectopic pregnancies, parasitic eye worms, etc., etc., etc. I don't know why more Christians don't just go with that reading.

Nope, it's not because of God, it's because of us and our sin.

The god that you are describing is Satan.

 

[Delphiki]

No, as AV so kindly pointed out some weeks ago, God PREPARED hell for SATAN and his Fallen angels!!! He did not create it. God created whatever is said in the first chapter of Genesis. He had to prepare this place for Satan who rebelled against Him and for those angels that interbred with human women and decided to follow Satan. They sinned and that is their judgement for eternity.
These angels (satan was an angel) sinned against God. Unfortunatly, man does the same and rebelles against God. So that's the place for them now, of their own choosing.

Well where do the evil Fallen angels stay and all the people that rejected God? They need to stay somewhere and it isn't going to be in God's holy house!!!

No God is brighter and smarter than you could possibly think that you could be as smart as you possibly think that you are. He knows what He is doing, He is in control.

You are still missing the point. Prepared, created... call it what you want. God made hell happen. You say he intended it for fallen angels. People supposedly go there, forever, even though he doesn't want them to. It's ultimately his fault it happens. There doesn't have to be a hell. And the fact that you mention it wasn't originally prepared for humans only makes matters worse, as it shows impudence. An omnipotent God should have the capability to do what it wants.

They don't need to stay anywhere. Can't God make new, humane, ethical rules for himself.

Hell is God's. People go there, whether or not that's who he "prepared" it for. God is sadistic, impudent, or both. No crime or sin should be worth an eternity of suffering.

 

[anyathesword]

Nature.

Ancient people were surrounded by phenomena they didn't understand.

They made up explanations.

Myths.

Nature? Sure. But what about all the gods and goddesses they make up? What about all the legends?

Do you think reality and real expériences had an inspiration on them to write down or to tell these stories to their children?

What about the flood myths and the similarities that all cultures around the world have?

What about the legend of dragons in Chinese, Greek, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Arabian, Indian, French, German, Viking, Scandinavian, African, and native american cultures? In the epic of Gilgamesh? In the tales of Alexander the Great? You know they are dinosaurs?

People just don't come up with similar myths without something happening, or someone seeing something or someone. And the fact that they are in just about every culture, makes you Wonder how important myths are.

China and the Native Americans are far apart!! But they both have a flood myth and a dragon myth. hmmm

 

[anyathesword]

You are still missing the point. Prepared, created... call it what you want. God made hell happen. You say he intended it for fallen angels. People supposedly go there, forever, even though he doesn't want them to. It's ultimately his fault it happens. There doesn't have to be a hell. And the fact that you mention it wasn't originally prepared for humans only makes matters worse, as it shows impudence. An omnipotent God should have the capability to do what it wants.

They don't need to stay anywhere. Can't God make new, humane, ethical rules for himself.

Hell is God's. People go there, whether or not that's who he "prepared" it for. God is sadistic, impudent, or both. No crime or sin should be worth an eternity of suffering.

IT'S THE PERSON'S FAULT!!!!!!!!!! Satan made hell happen. How is God's fault if a person CHOOSES not to love God???!!!

Wow, you and me are not faulty at all for our décisions, nope we are not. We are not accountable to decide to eat or to sleep. Nope we can't make our own décisions, nope.

I never hear you or anyone else here say that it is THEIR responsibility!!!!!!!!

Are you telling me you can't make a choice and whatever choice you make you aren't accountable to?

Are you blaming God for the décisions you are making everyday?

Oh boy....

 

[AV1611VET]

It's ultimately his fault it happens.

No, it's not.

Please answer this question:

Does it make you feel better that no one ... and I mean NO ONE ... is going to go to Hell that doesn't deserve to go?

Also, if I swallow a Chess piece from my miniature Chess-on-the-Go set, despite the fact that it came with a warning label, can I sue FIDE?

 

[anyathesword]

Depends on which man you are talking about.

I think most of us would think of better solutions to problems than doing things like drowning the planet, plaguing civilizations, and demanding foreskins and burnt offerings.

So come up with the solution to man's problem's, including the solution to stop killers running around and shooting innocent people. Go ahead, try. Even the présidents can't solve any problems!!!

 

[anyathesword]

That's really the easy way out.



They are born sinners, they inherrit Adam's sin. But if you feel comfortable with thinking this, go ahead.

Oh yes, I am totally comfortable in thinking this. Children go to Heaven.

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh yes, I am totally comfortable in thinking this. Children go to Heaven.

Yup.

Until children reach the Age of Accountability, they are saved by grace through innocence.

After they reach the Age of Accountability, they are saved by grace through faith.