Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[Lulav]

Oneness doesn't mean sameness. Just like Yeshua is head of the family, then the father, then the mother. Husband and wife are one flesh, right? One. But the wife is to submit to the husband although they are one.

A husband and wife can never become one with a wall separating the two, can they? That's like saying the wife spends the honeymoon in the hotel suite while the husband stays out in the hall. They are married, but have they become one?

 

[visionary]

Back to OP.... NO it is not safe to stay in the outer court.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

A husband and wife can never become one with a wall separating the two, can they? That's like saying the wife spends the honeymoon in the hotel suite while the husband stays out in the hall. They are married, but have they become one?

Back to OP.... NO it is not safe to stay in the outer court.

But you're worshipping the One True God whether which court you're in. Now if you chose not to be in the court then a different story.

What about the ones from the nations who aren't children of Israel and make pilgrimages that the prophets write about and Solomon? Are they not sufficient because they aren't children of Israel?

 

[kcmonseysr]

I have been 'listening' to some of you preaching that believing Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Torah for you to accept them at your Passover Seders. Or am I missing something here, and it is just unbelieving Gentiles that you are speaking of?

If it is believing Gentiles that you speak of here, then you are coming very close to those from Judea who came and taught thus: "…And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.'" (Acts 15:1-2 NASB) Do you not recall this teaching: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:2-5 NASB) Would you really risk placing one of your Gentile brethren in such a position, if indeed you do count them as full brethren in Messiah, and just not as ignorant step-siblings?

To some of you, why don't you consider and accept what those who were with Peter were amazed by: "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB) If the Gentile members of the same body (and family) as yourselves also have the same Holy Spirit, and you actually do love them as Messiah loved the Church (which is even a greater standard than that given in Torah - "Love your neighbor as yourself"), then why do you seek to entice them to take upon themselves the burden of Torah by offering them a meal in exchange for their foreskins? "… do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." (Matt 3:9-10 NASB)

As to those born into Judaism and who wish to keep Torah in order not to offend their friends and families, I would say 'fine'. Just as long as you don't think that doing so makes you more sanctified and gives you some sort of closer 'in' with HaShem. For it is also written: "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-4 NASB)

Just to clarify: I have not mentioned anything about your speculations about the (Millennial?) Temple in this thread. I have not formed an opinion about how the Church relates to this during the Millennial, but I DO NOT believe that any Gentile will be serving as functioning priests within it. Also, the land promised to Abraham has belonged to him, and to Isaac, and to Jacob and to their descendants (the Jews) from the moment of that unconditional promise on until today and on for all time. I.e., I totally reject "replacement theology", and, as a friend of mine once said, I hate to call it "theology".

Blessings upon all of you in this forum. I do not wish to seem harsh, only open and honest - and, at the risk of sounding either like a sycophant or a fool, I do find that, in general, Jews ARE much better at this than Gentiles.

 

[Shimshon]

I have been 'listening' to some of you preaching that believing Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Torah for you to accept them at your Passover Seders. Or am I missing something here, and it is just unbelieving Gentiles that you are speaking of?

If it is believing Gentiles that you speak of here, then you are coming very close to those from Judea who came and taught thus: "…And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.'" (Acts 15:1-2 NASB) Do you not recall this teaching: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:2-5 NASB) Would you really risk placing one of your Gentile brethren in such a position, if indeed you do count them as full brethren in Messiah, and just not as ignorant step-siblings?

To some of you, why don't you consider and accept what those who were with Peter were amazed by: "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB) If the Gentile members of the same body (and family) as yourselves also have the same Holy Spirit, and you actually do love them as Messiah loved the Church (which is even a greater standard than that given in Torah - "Love your neighbor as yourself"), then why do you seek to entice them to take upon themselves the burden of Torah by offering them a meal in exchange for their foreskins? "… do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." (Matt 3:9-10 NASB)

As to those born into Judaism and who wish to keep Torah in order not to offend their friends and families, I would say 'fine'. Just as long as you don't think that doing so makes you more sanctified and gives you some sort of closer 'in' with HaShem. For it is also written: "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-4 NASB)

Just to clarify: I have not mentioned anything about your speculations about the (Millennial?) Temple in this thread. I have not formed an opinion about how the Church relates to this during the Millennial, but I DO NOT believe that any Gentile will be serving as functioning priests within it. Also, the land promised to Abraham has belonged to him, and to Isaac, and to Jacob and to their descendants (the Jews) from the moment of that unconditional promise on until today and on for all time. I.e., I totally reject "replacement theology", and, as a friend of mine once said, I hate to call it "theology".

Blessings upon all of you in this forum. I do not wish to seem harsh, only open and honest - and, at the risk of sounding either like a sycophant or a fool, I do find that, in general, Jews ARE much better at this than Gentiles.

I think you have a very good understanding of what Messianic Judaism is.

 

[mercy1061]

I have been 'listening' to some of you preaching that believing Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Torah for you to accept them at your Passover Seders. Or am I missing something here, and it is just unbelieving Gentiles that you are speaking of?

If it is believing Gentiles that you speak of here, then you are coming very close to those from Judea who came and taught thus: "…And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.'" (Acts 15:1-2 NASB) Do you not recall this teaching: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:2-5 NASB) Would you really risk placing one of your Gentile brethren in such a position, if indeed you do count them as full brethren in Messiah, and just not as ignorant step-siblings?

To some of you, why don't you consider and accept what those who were with Peter were amazed by: "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB) If the Gentile members of the same body (and family) as yourselves also have the same Holy Spirit, and you actually do love them as Messiah loved the Church (which is even a greater standard than that given in Torah - "Love your neighbor as yourself"), then why do you seek to entice them to take upon themselves the burden of Torah by offering them a meal in exchange for their foreskins? "… do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." (Matt 3:9-10 NASB)

As to those born into Judaism and who wish to keep Torah in order not to offend their friends and families, I would say 'fine'. Just as long as you don't think that doing so makes you more sanctified and gives you some sort of closer 'in' with HaShem. For it is also written: "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-4 NASB)

Just to clarify: I have not mentioned anything about your speculations about the (Millennial?) Temple in this thread. I have not formed an opinion about how the Church relates to this during the Millennial, but I DO NOT believe that any Gentile will be serving as functioning priests within it. Also, the land promised to Abraham has belonged to him, and to Isaac, and to Jacob and to their descendants (the Jews) from the moment of that unconditional promise on until today and on for all time. I.e., I totally reject "replacement theology", and, as a friend of mine once said, I hate to call it "theology".

Blessings upon all of you in this forum. I do not wish to seem harsh, only open and honest - and, at the risk of sounding either like a sycophant or a fool, I do find that, in general, Jews ARE much better at this than Gentiles.

What is wrong with a gentile becoming circumcised and honoring the "whole torah kingdom law"? Was not Abraham circumcised? Do you consider becoming circumcised is evil for gentiles? Is it more honorable for you to teach gentiles to honor only part of the "torah kingdom law"? Do you think the 10 commandments should be obeyed by gentiles?

 

[isleof]

boo gentiles.

 

[etZion]

boo gentiles.

Lol...

 

[kcmonseysr]

Hi mercy,

You ask some great (and, I think, foundational) questions here - and I will answer them as best I can, but not right this minute. Give me some time to compose my thoughts, maybe even a day or so. I don't want to throw "just anything" back in your direction. The true purpose of any discussion is to learn, not to win the argument; and if I were to give just a quick reply in this case, I'm afraid that I would risk confusing both of us as to what I mean.

Blessings on you.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I have been 'listening' to some of you preaching that believing Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Torah for you to accept them at your Passover Seders. Or am I missing something here, and it is just unbelieving Gentiles that you are speaking of?

If it is believing Gentiles that you speak of here, then you are coming very close to those from Judea who came and taught thus: "…And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.'" (Acts 15:1-2 NASB) Do you not recall this teaching: "Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:2-5 NASB) Would you really risk placing one of your Gentile brethren in such a position, if indeed you do count them as full brethren in Messiah, and just not as ignorant step-siblings?

To some of you, why don't you consider and accept what those who were with Peter were amazed by: "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB) If the Gentile members of the same body (and family) as yourselves also have the same Holy Spirit, and you actually do love them as Messiah loved the Church (which is even a greater standard than that given in Torah - "Love your neighbor as yourself"), then why do you seek to entice them to take upon themselves the burden of Torah by offering them a meal in exchange for their foreskins? "… do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." (Matt 3:9-10 NASB)

As to those born into Judaism and who wish to keep Torah in order not to offend their friends and families, I would say 'fine'. Just as long as you don't think that doing so makes you more sanctified and gives you some sort of closer 'in' with HaShem. For it is also written: "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-4 NASB)

Just to clarify: I have not mentioned anything about your speculations about the (Millennial?) Temple in this thread. I have not formed an opinion about how the Church relates to this during the Millennial, but I DO NOT believe that any Gentile will be serving as functioning priests within it. Also, the land promised to Abraham has belonged to him, and to Isaac, and to Jacob and to their descendants (the Jews) from the moment of that unconditional promise on until today and on for all time. I.e., I totally reject "replacement theology", and, as a friend of mine once said, I hate to call it "theology".

Blessings upon all of you in this forum. I do not wish to seem harsh, only open and honest - and, at the risk of sounding either like a sycophant or a fool, I do find that, in general, Jews ARE much better at this than Gentiles.

Good thing no one here is suggesting that we can be justified by keeping the law then, eh.

 

[etZion]

I have been 'listening' to some of you preaching that believing Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Torah for you to accept them at your Passover Seders. Or am I missing something here, and it is just unbelieving Gentiles that you are speaking of?

You need to go back and read, anyone can participate at at seder, but no uncircumcised male can eat the Passover sacrifice, whether Jew or Gentile, which cannot even be done today, so the argument is simply hypothetical if it was present today.

Would you really risk placing one of your Gentile brethren in such a position, if indeed you do count them as full brethren in Messiah, and just not as ignorant step-siblings?

There is nothing wrong with circumcision, the command in the Torah to circumcise is not in competition with Yeshua, and neither is it a risk, unless done incorrectly. Paul's argument in Galatians 5 revolves around a false form of justification. Thus Paul is not telling Gentiles to stay away from the commandment of circumcision, but instead from the false circumcision, which taught a false message, we see this message in Acts 15:1, and we see it summed in the verse you quoted here: You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Seeking your own justification, no matter what it is, it doesn't even have to be circumcision, it just happened to be in this case.

To some of you, why don't you consider and accept what those who were with Peter were amazed by: "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB)

Exactly, this was a promise to Israel, not to gentiles, and yet in the Messiah, gentiles were taking part in a covenant promise to Israel. Because of Messiah, gentiles had been brought in, Paul expounds on this in Ephesians.

If the Gentile members of the same body (and family) as yourselves also have the same Holy Spirit, and you actually do love them as Messiah loved the Church (which is even a greater standard than that given in Torah - "Love your neighbor as yourself"), then why do you seek to entice them to take upon themselves the burden of Torah by offering them a meal in exchange for their foreskins? "… do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham." (Matt 3:9-10 NASB)

The Torah is not a burden, but a delight, read Psalm 119. The burden then is something other than the Torah. In Matthew 23, we see Yeshua talking about the Pharisees laying heavy burdens on men's shoulders, this is more in line with what Paul and the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 were dealing with. There argument was never that God's word was a burden, something which would cause more contradictions than satisfactions.

As to those born into Judaism and who wish to keep Torah in order not to offend their friends and families, I would say 'fine'. Just as long as you don't think that doing so makes you more sanctified and gives you some sort of closer 'in' with HaShem. For it is also written: "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-4 NASB)

The Spirit does not nullify the Law, as Paul writes in Romans 7 and 8. Obedience to God is not simply a choice, but it is what true faith looks like. Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Also, the land promised to Abraham has belonged to him, and to Isaac, and to Jacob and to their descendants (the Jews) from the moment of that unconditional promise on until today and on for all time. I.e., I totally reject "replacement theology", and, as a friend of mine once said, I hate to call it "theology".

Well said.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi kcmonseysr,

...and welcome. As you are well aware, the points you bring up a source of great contention. Two thousand years of man's rescripting of the Gospel message has seen to that. But you seem sincere and ask good questions; both qualities I particularly enjoy.

If I may, I would take a brief stab at an answer. Forgive me in advance if it is a bit generic.

The subject of circumcision has been debated here ad nausium. There are many arguments as to what the term means and how it is used in scripture:

1. One argument is based on the term being taken literally; a physical mark made in the foreskin of the penis according to the manner and methods laid out in Torah.
2. One argument is based on the term being taken figuratively; a reference to a highly ritualized tradition of conversion to Judaism that includes physical circumcision, among other elements.
3. One argument is based on the thought that certain references are made within highly stylized forms of midrashic hyperbole.
4. There is a hybrid argument (probably most accurate), that is founded on the belief that references to circumcision in New Testament writings, are a combination of the three cases and can only be discerned through contextual means by a person well versed in history, scripture and the practices and traditions of ancient Judaism.
5. There is also the term, "of the circumcision" that refers to certain Jews that were proponent of the second argument listed above.

Your question indicates you are unfamiliar with the topic and the debate. I only posted all of that to let you know that this is a complex issue that might require a little study on your part if you really want to understand all of the ramifications of your question. I would suggest that you start with a simple search (perhaps in eSword?) for the word 'circumcision' in the Tanakh (Old Testament) and brush up on the basics.

The second part of your post enters some even more contentious ground. That would be the whole, 'faith, grace and law' debate. I won't presume to lecture you, but I would advise an open mind and a circumspect approach.

Don't get caught up in the arguments. Instead, embrace the questions. When you fully understand the depth of the questions you ask, you will be able to make a more reasonable judgement for yourself as to the arguments offered.

Concerning Passover:
The short answer is that no, you do not have to be circumcised to attend a Passover seder. A Seder is not a sacrifice, so physical circumcision is not required. Instead, it is an instructive retelling of the events of the Passover story replete with props, Q&A and interactive immersion into the historical, scriptural and spiritual significance of the actual event.

I'm sure that there are many Seders hosted in your area. Reach out to your local Messianic synagogue for more information on the when and where. You may also wish to participate in a traditional Jewish Seder at some point too. I recommend it.

Keep in mind that the public versions are presented before the actual Passover and, though complete productions in and of themselves, are considered rehearsals for the actual date. The actual Passover is the one that is celebrated at home with family and guests. If you are unfamiliar, there are certain social and cultural conventions to be observed. Make sure to inquire. This is a most edifying and gratifying experience, so care should be take not to spoil it by offending your hosts.

Concerning the rest:

1. The short version is that some people insist that faith and grace are either all that is necessary or that the former (faith and grace) has replaced the latter (the law).
2. Another camp contends that the former and the latter are not mutually exclusive and in fact are different components of the same concept; selection through grace and obedience through faith.
3. There is another camp that contends that the first position is for Gentile believers and the second is for Jewish believers.
4. All camps believe that studying the Hebraic context of the scripture can only enhance the disciples understanding of these critical issues.

I hope you have found this information helpful.

Blessings,
Phillip

I have been 'listening' to some of you preaching that believing Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Torah for you to accept them at your Passover Seders. Or am I missing something here, and it is just unbelieving Gentiles that you are speaking of?

*snip*​

 

[kcmonseysr]

etZion,

Thanks much for clarifying the 'Seder thing' (not forgetting the others - I have to look again at those). Indeed, I misunderstood, not understanding that it was just a 'theoretical' discussion. To be honest, to me a 'theoretical discussion' of such an important subject bespeaks of too much free time on someone's hands. The time we have left here is short, and much 'non-theoretical' work yet remains to be done.

I only had time to do a very quick read of your entire reply, but, at this time, I suspect that our 'differences' are more semantical than factual. I really do have to run this time - I have a weekly coffee date with some people, and, well, am I violating some mitzpah or other in putting the coffee ahead of you???

Please keep in mind that I'm fairly new to the Messianic world, and am trying to learn a slightly new vocabulary as well as understanding new viewpoints. Any honest rebukes that you can throw my way would be appreciated!!! I really do seek to understand youall.

Blessings.

 

[kcmonseysr]

To MessianicMommy:

(I tried to PM you, but evidently I'm not old enough yet for that. So, I am bending the rules a bit here in reaching you in this manner???)

THANKS mum!!! May HaShem guide us as we learn about Him, and may He show us how, when, and where to use what He teaches us.

 

[Yahudim]

Obviously, I spoke too soon! Or too late as the case may be.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

In the days of Noah there were hordes of multitudes of people that watch as only 3 gentiles walked into the ark having married into the seed of God.

Gentiles have a marriage proposal to a Jew for 2000 years.

Gentiles have watched the family of her husband to be.


The world has sought to wipe the family of the husband off the face of the Earth, and even the wife to be has involved herself in trying to wipe out the ways of her bridegrooms family.


The wife should have went to the family of her betrothed and bought land for them, and she should have taken care of them until her husband came back.


Instead, she went whoring after the ways of other gods and sought to take the kingdom by violence as if a woman should kill the family of the husband and rule as queen herself.


I think the only thing that matters is that the gentiles of the world come back with loyalty to the family of her betrothed husband.

That this wife should stand and support while she watches her adopted family take care of their own business.

That all gentiles should show support and acknowledge their return with respect to Torah, and their return to the 7 feast days of Christ.


I don't think Gentiles so much as become the same as Jews, but they should become one with Jews.



Jesus making one man out of two men is physically putting them together as one, as all nations united under their authority.

It is a marriage where one people represent the flesh{woman}. The other person represents the male.

So our whole being symbolizes both Jew, and Gentile.

Male and female.

''3Your adornment should not be outward – arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on dresses –

4but the hidden Man of the heart, with the incorruptible ornament of a meek and peaceable spirit, which is of great value before Elohim.
''


Just as the woman should be submissive in silence with her husband in authority, so too should the gentile nations act towards the Jews.


If the Gentile is supposed to do what the high priest asks him to do, what would the high priest ask of him?

Not much.


It doesn't matter whether the gentile can eat of the Passover lamb or not, it matters that they are there in support when their husband does.

 

[mercy1061]

mercy - sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'm posting earlier than I promised.

Okay, I am glad you have had time to carefully consider your response to my questions. Since you politely answered my questions; I will politely answer your questions.


What is wrong with a gentile becoming circumcised and honoring the "whole torah kingdom law"?

Please clarify to me what you think of as a "gentile". I.e. do you consider a non-Jew who has believed in the finished work of Messiah to be the same as a non-Jew who remains in the darkness of sin? I am not sure if you are advocating that a "believing Gentile" should be circumcised and place himself under Torah. If you are, then let me clearly know, and I will answer further.

A gentile is simply a non-jew. I do not believe any man should place himself UNDERNEATH the torah; if you place yourself UNDERNEATH torah; then the torah is above you. If the torah is above you, then you are not truly honoring torah. You have "fallen" under torah, "fallen" from grace.

Was not Abraham circumcised?

Of course. As part of the Abrahamic covenant. Prior to Torah being given. Do you believe that all "believing Gentiles" should be circumcised and that this would make them full heirs to the promises given to Abraham - including Eratz Yishrael?

All gentiles among a jew must be circumcised, even a gentile not currently living among a jew. Abraham did not live among jews, yet he circumcised himself, he also circumcised every gentile male in his household including his slaves.

Do you consider becoming circumcised is evil for gentiles?

Not in of itself. I myself am circumcised, as are my sons. Likewise, I have no problem with Jewish believers in Messiah circumcising their own sons into the Abrahamic covenant (so, you see, I am very broadminded here ). However, I have very serious problems with believing Gentiles being brought under Torah, as is clearly taught in the New(er) Testament. (To clarify my physical linage: when I was twelve years old, my father's father took me aside and said to me, "Never say anything against the Jews, we have (a) Jew in the woodpile". My mother's great-grandparents came to the U.S. in the late 1800's and would NEVER even allow FAMILY to know anything about their lives in Germany. Maybe they were escaping horse thieves, but the family always believed them to be Jewish. So, am I a Jew? Not by any Rabbinical standard of physical descent, but I do have this (irrational???) love for (the) Jewish people.)

If a jew refuses to honor "torah kingdom law" through circumcision; does he continue to be a jew?

Romans 2

28 Just because you live like a Jew and are circumcised doesn’t make you a real Jew. 29 To be a real Jew you must obey the Law. True circumcision is something that happens deep in your heart, not something done to your body. And besides, you should want praise from God and not from humans.

If you are circumcised but teach others to dishonor Sabbath, what happens to your "seal of righteousness" or circumcision?



25 Being circumcised is worthwhile, if you obey the Law. But if you don’t obey the Law, you are no better off than people who are not circumcised. 26 In fact, if they obey the Law, they are as good as anyone who is circumcised. 27 So everyone who obeys the Law, but has never been circumcised, will condemn you. Even though you are circumcised and have the Law, you still don’t obey its teachings.

Is it more honorable for you to teach gentiles to honor only part of the "torah kingdom law"?

Please clarify for me: what "kingdom" are you speaking of here? I actually love the Torah as given to Moses. Truly, it is a "lamp unto my feet". So, after you clarify to me the "kingdom" part, please clarify to me what you mean by "to honor".

Ancient Israel was established as a kingdom, not a democratic government or democratic nation. "Honor" means do you show "respect" toward torah?

Do you think the 10 commandments should be obeyed by gentiles?

Nine of the ten Commandments are repeated in the New(er) Testament - as standards to which ALL believers should strive towards following. The tenth, Shabbat, is covered when it is written: "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Col 2:16-18 NASB Therefore, I myself, take this to mean that it means little as to what day of the week I come together with fellow believers (Jew or Gentile), and 'rest'. Rather, I take my true Rest seven days a week, (trying to be) resting from my own works and (trying to do) the works of our Father in Heaven, even as Messiah did and gave us his example to follow. I am not "under" Torah, I am under the Law of Messiah. I am not so much to "love my neighbor as myself" as I am to love my neighbor even as Messiah loved us, and gave His life for us. I am not being formed by the external pressures that come from trying, and not succeeding, to follow Torah, I am being formed by the Spirit of G-d that is residing within me and who is jealous for me, and what things that I do that follow Torah should be coming from and reflecting of a change within me.

I DO believe that Torah is indeed an expression of the Holiness of the Living G-d, and I find it useful as a gauge that helps me to be sure that I am indeed doing better as time here goes by, and that my old nature that I still struggle with is not deceiving me. I also believe that an excellent example of the "lawful" use of Torah is given by Paul in this passage: "For it is written in the Law of Moses, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.' God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we should reap material things from you? If others share the right over you, do we not more?" 1 Cor 9:9-12 NASB

So, if by "being obeyed by gentiles" to mean that do I believe that Gentiles - believing or unbelieving - should place themselves under the strictures of Torah, then the short answer is "NO". If Torah was not able to make the Jews righteous, how much more would it fail for unbelieving Gentiles. If believing Gentiles are redeemed from the curse of Torah by the blood of Messiah, then why would they want to place themselves (back) under the Law?

Blessings - I like name 'mercy'. I've used more than my fair share of it.

I am glad that you like my name "mercy", I will try to use "mercy" in my response to you. So you think only nine out of 10 commandments should be obeyed from it's original form? Let me show you how important the Sabbath law is important, and it is repeated in the new testament; not that it need to be. If "thou shall not murder" is not repeated in the new testament, does that mean murder is okay? I am not understanding your logic.

Neh 13
15 I also noticed what the people of Judah were doing on the Sabbath. Not only were they trampling grapes to make wine, but they were harvesting their grain, grapes, figs, and other crops, and then loading these on donkeys to sell in Jerusalem. So I warned them not to sell food on the Sabbath. 16 People who had moved to Jerusalem from the city of Tyre were bringing in fish and other things to sell there on the Sabbath. 17 I got angry and said to the leaders of Judah, “This evil you are doing is an insult to the Sabbath! 18 Didn’t God punish us and this city because our ancestors did these very same things? And here you are, about to make God furious again by disgracing the Sabbath!”
19 I ordered the gates of Jerusalem to be closed on the eve of the Sabbath[c] and not to be opened until after the Sabbath had ended. Then I put some of my own men in charge of the gates to make certain that nothing was brought in on the Sabbath. 20 Once or twice some merchants spent the night outside Jerusalem with their goods. 21 But I warned them, “If you do this again, I’ll have you arrested.” From then on, they did not come on the Sabbath. 22 I ordered the Levites to make themselves holy and to guard the gates on the Sabbath, so that it would be kept holy.
God is truly merciful, and I pray that he will treat me with kindness and bless me for doing this.


If you dishonor Sabbath, you run the risk of being in bondage again.

 

[etZion]

etZion,

I only had time to do a very quick read of your entire reply, but, at this time, I suspect that our 'differences' are more semantical than factual.

I think at first sight, it might seem like a matter of semantics, but it definitely is not. I would recommend you see Talmidim's post to you, with more details of this subject broken down.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Tal, mercy, and et. To learn is why I'm here. Et - I agree, I need to follow Tal's lead to learn a bit more. Mercy, what I was TRYING to say is NOT that I would disrespect any Law, but (at least at this time) I take the Sabbath in my Savior. In that sense, I rest from my own works. I do NOT believe that the seventh day of rest has ever been changed to another day, just in case you're wondering... However, I will plead guilty of maybe (and I hate to use this word...) "spiritualizing" the Sabbath well beyond anything that you yourself would accept. As to the literal days of the week, each is the same to me and I only believe that the brethren should meet together regularly. I would not fight or disparage any day that they choose - but more on that later. I really do have to run off again. Fire away. How else can I learn???

Blessings.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Mercy - I know that I'm a little slow, so I'm just mildly curious. As I was getting out of my car about half an hour after reading the opening line of your last post ("...Okay, I am glad you have had time to carefully consider your response to my questions.) I noticed that my clothes were damp. When I got into better light, I realized that I was wiping dripping sarcasm off myself. Was that from you????

Blessings,

Ken