Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[Messianic Jewboy]

Right! But if you say it long enough it becomes truth, right?!?

Now Messianic Judaism might teach that Torah isn't for Jews in the proper context such as Acts 15 and the like. But that context doesn't apply in this present day.

I remember David Chernoff saying he never would have imagined that so many Gentiles would be in Messianic synagogues, that's it's prophecy being fulfilled; Jew and Gentile, one new man. Oneness doesn't mean sameness.

The problem is that many on this board believe it's through the Torah, but it's because of the Abrahamic covenant being fulfilled. The Torah has nothing to do with being one new man.

 

[Shimshon]

Oneness doesn't mean sameness.

Echad, a plural oneness.

 

[annier]

Now I get it!

Thank you Annie! At last, I have seen the light! What we are dealing with isn't logic. It really isn't 'belief' although there are certainly some who have swallowed this line "hook line and sinker".

For the longest time, I could not figure out why there seemed to be some posters (members and otherwise) who would not really discuss, some who would and others who would inundate with blather, cut and paste and logic similar to Sheldon Cooper. Yet they all seem to have 'something' in common; one thing in common.

"What line", you might ask? It's the Party Line! The tenets and doctrines of Apostolic Messianic Judaism is being replaced by UMJC, MJAA, MJRC and the like. It's like the old adage, "The right way, the wrong way and the Army way." There is no room for discussion here. Not really. Just conformity to the UMJC party line.

There is no shortage of failures in academia, but they cloak their decisions in the shrouds of the scholastic for the sake of legitimacy. They claim to be the originators of Messianic Judaism, the first to coin the phrase "Messianic Judaism", as if our predecessors in the faith were lacked the common sense to distinguish the difference; as if coining a phrase gave them special privilege in deciding doctrine for all who would follow, "The Way, the Truth and the Life!".

"And what is the Party Line", you may ask? There is one consistent message in all of this blather: Torah is not for Goyim. It is only for Jews. Messianic Judaism is for Jews, not Goyim. Go get your blessings from Abraham. Go back to church.

That is the common failing here. The lack of common sense, reminiscent of when the great mathematician and physicist, Albert Einstein had the keel removed from his sailboat. He wanted to be able to sail over the reef at the end of the bay. His experiment failed, not because the boat leaked, but because it, like this doctrine, lacked balance.

This is the backhanded message of this OP embedded in the sophistic question, "Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?" Well here is some common sense for you: Repeating something ad nausium does not make it true. Unfortunately there is common sense in this approach: Repeating something ad nausium does make it known. And a certain number of people will accept anything if repeated often enough.

This may be the belief of UMJC and the like, but it is strictly forbidden by our SoP and not supported by Torah.
, unlike the UMJC, does not require you to undergo a conversion not recognized by any Jewish body, or to go through one that is, but only if you curse Messiah first. This is another example of a failed approach that lacks balance and common sense.

Again, thank you. Now I know exactly what to do.

Judaism (messianic included) does not teach no torah for Gentiles that I am aware. I do agree with what you have said in other posts. Defining terms is a very good thing. I believe some good terms for use are in line with the op. As well as, in line with scripture. As well as in line with the sop
There is
# 1. Torah, and there is
# 2. whole torah.
This speaks to levels of observance does it?

Which is it you are applying here?

"Torah is not for Goyim. It is only for Jews."

As it makes me curious as to statements like the following....

Torah always made a way for the Goyim to join Israel and Torah

If Torah (meaning whole Torah) is for Gentiles as well, why would there be a need to join Israel? That has always had me curious. But I am sure you can answer this sufficiently.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Echad, a plural oneness.

Exactly the prophets write that the Nations will come to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacle's as one with Israel. The prophets also write if the Nations don't come, they won't get rain.

Interesting that in the Law of Moses the feast of Tabernacle's is only for Israel, however in the Messianic Age there's a provision per se for the Nations for the Feast.

Messianic Judaism is much more liberal in regards to Gentiles compared to other Judaism's.

 

[Lulav]

And the beat goes on.........................

 

[Lulav]

Are there two kinds of peoples or three?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Judaism (messianic included) does not teach no torah for Gentiles that I am aware. I do agree with what you have said in other posts. Defining terms is a very good thing. I believe some good terms for use are in line with the op. As well as, in line with scripture. As well as in line with the sop
There is
# 1. Torah, and there is
# 2. whole torah.
This speaks to levels of observance does it?

Which is it you are applying here?

As it makes me curious as to statements like the following....

If Torah (meaning whole Torah) is for Gentiles as well, why would there be a need to join Israel? That has always had me curious. But I am sure you can answer this sufficiently.

Judaism teaches that non Jews are subject to the Torah but like you said not the whole Torah. The Laws of Noah apply to all human kind which is based in the Torah. Even applies to Jews per se. The Law of Moses includes the laws of Noah but also includes the Law or the constitution if you will for the nation of Israel.

With that being said Messianic Judaism is more liberal per se when it comes to the constitution of the nation of Israel for non Jews.

 

[annier]

Judaism teaches that non Jews are subject to the Torah but like you said not the whole Torah. The Laws of Noah apply to all human kind which is based in the Torah. Even applies to Jews per se. The Law of Moses includes the laws of Noah but also includes the Law or the constitution if you will for the nation of Israel.

With that being said Messianic Judaism is more liberal per se when it comes to the constitution of the nation of Israel for non Jews.

Yes, that is what I also have understood as well.
But I have been long curious about Torah and Israel within Messianic circles. So many seem to make Torah exclusive to Israel in their own peculiar way (at least it seems that way). Keeping torah seems to always be about having joined Israel. As though one does not, or cannot keep torah apart from Israel? That is what makes me curious how that works if Torah is not exclusive to Israel?
Of course in saying Torah, I mean whole torah. We Christians are not lawless ;-)

 

[Yahudim]

What sophistry! No one person or group can be subject to "The Whole Torah". Gee have you even read it?

What you are trying to accomplish it to rebuild the wall of separation, what Sha'ul called the 'Wall of Hostility', between Jew and Gentile.

I have posted scripture to prove that Messiah Y'shua was dead set against this perversion of scripture and practice as quoted in Mat 23.

Matthew 23
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
23 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: 2 “The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them. 5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin broad and their tzitziyot long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’

8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted.

13 “But woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. 14 [a]

15 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!

16 “Woe to you, you blind guides!...

The biblical term "proselyte" is an anglicization of the Koine Greek term προσήλυτος/proselytos, as used in the Greek Old Testament for "stranger", i.e. a "newcomer to Israel";[1] a "sojourner in the land",[2] and in the Greek New Testament[3] for a first century convert to Judaism, generally from Ancient Greek religion. It is a translation of the Biblical Hebrew phrase גר תושב/ger toshav.[4]

Go argue with Him. I can't hear you.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Those that are steeped into Hebrew Roots, One Law doctrine wouldn't agree with the likes of Jonathon Bernis because he is part of the pioneers(later) of Messianic Judaism which would be more in line with Judaism. The likes of Chumney those in Hebrew Roots and One Law would agree with for the most part because of being in opposition of orthodox/traditional Judaism and having one Law doctrine.

Sounds to me like your in the Chunmey, Staley(maybe) etc camp and the like camp and I'm in the MJAA, UMJC camp and the like.

I don't think you get it, this thing is foreign to me.

I have given up all that I ever knew several times, I have moved from belief to belief, and I have been alienated by everyone. I lost my wife, my job, my house, my family thinks I'm nuts, and I have been on a mission ALONE.

For me to agree with anyone would be alien to me. Certainly to believe there is somebody that I am supposed to agree with is so foreign that I can't even imagine it.

I have fought Christian, Jew, Messianic Jew, and Messianic, and I don't roll with any of them.

I am not linked to anyone, or any particular belief, in fact, I don't know a single person who believes as I do.

I did not come all this way alone continually shunned by everyone to give up my will to anyone.


If there is somebody who thinks they are in charge, bring them to me, and perhaps I will leave them as a drink offering in my wake.

I am the priest of my temple.

I alone will stand before God, and I alone will be judged for what I have done, and for what I believe.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Sounds to me like your in the Chunmey, Staley(maybe) etc camp and the like camp and I'm in the MJAA, UMJC camp and the like.

Please don't put me in a camp or compare me with anyone, they would all be offended to have me in they camps.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

If I were to make an allegiance with anyone, it would be to Orthodox Jews who do not believe in Jesus.

I have always been loyal to them, even as a child.

I never believed like other people, I read the bible over and over at a very early age, and when I thought of Jews, I thought of kings and priests and being able to serve them.

I didn't become a Messianic till I was 40, but I always had a mind of loyalty toward Jews who are Orthodox and they are my fathers.

When I see Jews who believe in Jesus, I just see people like myself.

But when I see Orthodox Jews, and Jews who are my betters, I see my fathers, and I wouldn't even presume to open my eyes or my mouth in their presence.

They are the people I am loyal to.

My life literally belongs to them, and everything I have or ever will have belongs to them. There is nothing they could ask of me that I wouldn't do.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Meh

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I will anger a lot of Christians because I will bring up all sorts of prophecies about how a gentile should present himself to a Jew as a servant. I show many scriptures of the gentiles gathering the wealth of the world to present at the feet of Jews.

I was made for this reason, only to serve.



But what I never say is that while I am on my knees saying that I am a servant, the correct response would be for the Jew to fall on his knees and say,''NO, I am your servant.''


I will tell any Christians that he had better find that extra vessel{a Jew} and put oil in it.

A gentile had better become one with an orthodox Jew while Orthodox Jews may be found, because when there are no more to be servants to, how will you serve?

How will a gentile find a Jew to carry on his back then?


Something is going to frighten the world so bad, that I can't even imagine what.

The world is going to see that God is with Judah, and then the world will gather up the wealth of the world and the kings of the world will come bowing.

But what good is all this wealth and bowing when one has been frightened into doing it?


Wouldn't you rather be a person who presented all your wealth to an Orthodox Jew before you are made to?


Its like keeping Sukkot, a day is coming that everyone will be punished if they don't keep the Sukkot, is that something we should delay in doing until we are punished for not doing it to begin with?

Zechariah in fact insinuates that a great number of people die because they were not already keeping the Sukkot.

To fight against Jerusalem is to fight the ways of God, the feasts of Jerusalem and those who sit in the seat of Moses.


Some people will be standing when their tongues melt in their heads before they hit the ground, and when does this happen?

At Sukkot.


This new movement of being Messianic is not something that was created recently, it comes from Jews keeping this religion alive for 2000 years while the people of Jesus tried to abolish it and do away with it.

I converted to the religion of the Jews, they are in charge, they sit in the seat of Moses.


All these last days prophecies speak of anyone who goes against them, and then shows great reward for gentiles who served them.

 

[MessianicMommy]

OK, I have read all five pages of this and I feel like this thread should have had a warning.

Not to mention, I sat here watching all the back and forth and the more I read the more scary it got.

My honest feeling is to just cut and run.

Ya'll, we can do so much better with communicating our views than this.

Might I suggest that we table this conversation for a little bit and try to work on our communication skills without ad hominems and logical fallacies, and try again later?


There is so much happening in the wide world right now, do we really need to be tearing each other apart like this?

 

[kcmonseysr]

Well, for what it's worth - I (after beating my head once or twice trying to follow the arguments [partially successfully]) actually got quite a bit out of this thread. Somewhere around page 16 to 18 there began to be given some reference points in the (to me, anyway) very confusing map of land of the Messianic belief system(s). I wish to thank all that gave some names and organizations that I can further research and use as 'way points' as I learn more. So, scary?? Naw!! A good argument is always invigorating…

 

[Steve Petersen]

If the Temple was still present and as a non Jew you are washed in His blood and co-heirs is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

Is the Court of the Women a bad place to be? or the court of Israel? or the Court of the Priests?

Even a native Israelite could be restricted in his access to various parts of the Temple. Heck, only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Here is the 3 sections of the Temple, the measuring of this temple is a measuring of people in those 3 sections.


The reason there is no Ephraim listed in Revelation is because a Time limit has passed and everyone is counted in a single day.

The people who have come up to the Temple of God but are still gentiles are not counted with the people in the 2 sections of the Temple proper.

A war begins at this point, Gentile believers who would not become Israel fight against those people who are considered true Israel.

If a person is considered still a gentile and seen standing in the outer court, it is a very bad thing to be.



And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Lulav]

If the Temple was still present and as a non Jew you are washed in His blood and co-heirs is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

How can you be co-heirs if you aren't even allowed in the same space? That's like telling someone that they are heirs to a castle but if you aren't Jewish you can't go past the moat.

Where in Torah is it written that there should be a wall of separation from those who want to worship the one true G-d?

And who appointed anyone St. Peter of the gate to heaven?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

How can you be co-heirs if you aren't even allowed in the same space? That's like telling someone that they are heirs to a castle but if you aren't Jewish you can't go past the moat.

Where in Torah is it written that there should be a wall of separation from those who want to worship the one true G-d?

And who appointed anyone St. Peter of the gate to heaven?

Oneness doesn't mean sameness. Just like Yeshua is head of the family, then the father, then the mother. Husband and wife are one flesh, right? One. But the wife is to submit to the husband although they are one.