Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[annier]

20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.

The joining of the Levites to the priesthood....

Nu 8:10 And thou shalt bring the Levites before the LORD: and the children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites:
Nu 8:11 And Aaron shall offer the Levites before the LORD for an offering of the children of Israel, that they may execute the service of the LORD.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

So lost but trying to understand.


I hope this isn't a dumb question, probably is.


I am thinking that Annier thinks there is some type of Hierarchy, that somebody is in charge.

That maybe some Jews are in charge or suppose to be in charge of Messianics?

Is that a silly question?

I am lost to the point.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The joining of the Levites to the priesthood....

Nu 8:10 And thou shalt bring the Levites before the LORD: and the children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites:
Nu 8:11 And Aaron shall offer the Levites before the LORD for an offering of the children of Israel, that they may execute the service of the LORD.

I am just not seeing your point.

Is there somebody in charge now?

 

[annier]

So lost but trying to understand.


I hope this isn't a dumb question, probably is.


I am thinking that Annier thinks there is some type of Hierarchy, that somebody is in charge.

That maybe some Jews are in charge or suppose to be in charge of Messianics?

Is that a silly question?

I am lost to the point.

Were no Jews in Charge in the first century? Who were those that all the Gentiles did not follow that you are talking about??

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Still not seeing your point, is somebody in charge now?

If there is, then I am clueless to it, sounds interesting but I have no idea who they are.

 

[annier]

Still not seeing your point, is somebody in charge now?

If there is, then I am clueless to it, sounds interesting but I have no idea who they are.

Look them up. Look up their history, and the history of the Messianic movement.
I am curious as to how you became Messianic now.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Look them up. Look up their history, and the history of the Messianic movement.
I am curious as to how you became Messianic now.

Look who up?

Are you really telling me that there is a Hierarchy?

A Priesthood in charge?

Is that what you are saying?

That is what you are saying isn't it?


I am just speechless, I honestly didn't know.

 

[annier]

Look who up?

Are you really telling me that there is a Hierarchy?

A Priesthood in charge?

Is that what you are saying?

That is what you are saying isn't it?


I am just speechless, I honestly didn't know.

O.k. I think you are simply mocking here.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

O.k. I think you are simply mocking here.

I am not mocking in the least, I am taken aback, that's why it took me so long to figure out what you were saying.

I had absolutely no idea that ANYONE thought that there was some sort of organization or people in charge, or whatever it is they do, I am clueless.

Never heard of such a thing, its interesting.

But I am not mocking, my family has given to many associations that help needy Jews and we still do.

But just because we support those who help the Jews doesn't mean we agree with them on anything.

I had no idea there were people who felt like you.

I know of nobody in charge and haven't ever heard anyone say anything like you are saying.

 

[annier]

I am not mocking in the least, I am taken aback, that's why it took me so long to figure out what you were saying.

I had absolutely no idea that ANYONE thought that there was some sort of organization or people in charge, or whatever it is they do, I am clueless.

Never heard of such a thing, its interesting.

But I am not mocking, my family has given to many associations that help needy Jews and we still do.

But just because we support those who help the Jews doesn't mean we agree with them on anything.

I had no idea there were people who felt like you.

I know of nobody in charge and haven't ever heard anyone say anything like you are saying.

There are Jewish leaders within the Messianic Movement, those with which the movement began. You have never heard of the mjaa?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

There are Jewish leaders within the Messianic Movement, those with which the movement began. You have never heard of the mjaa?

Actually, I think I send them money each month, its one of those outfits. I was about to stop sending the money.

I just don't pay that much attention to what most of them believe. Like Jonothan Bernis, He's an ok cat, he does good work I suppose, but I disagree with much of what he believes. Eddie Chumney is at the top of my list, but I even disagree with Eddie.

Now Jews for Jesus, I don't even have the time to talk to.

Spent hundreds of hours defending Jews from them.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Who is the Priest in your Temple Annier?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Does the Mjaa have a line of priests?

Does it have a high priest?

Just really curious.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Actually, I think I send them money each month, its one of those outfits. I was about to stop sending the money.

I just don't pay that much attention to what most of them believe. Like Jonothan Bernis, He's an ok cat, he does good work I suppose, but I disagree with much of what he believes. Eddie Chumney is at the top of my list, but I even disagree with Eddie.

Now Jews for Jesus, I don't even have the time to talk to.

Spent hundreds of hours defending Jews from them.

Those that are steeped into Hebrew Roots, One Law doctrine wouldn't agree with the likes of Jonathon Bernis because he is part of the pioneers(later) of Messianic Judaism which would be more in line with Judaism. The likes of Chumney those in Hebrew Roots and One Law would agree with for the most part because of being in opposition of orthodox/traditional Judaism and having one Law doctrine.

Sounds to me like your in the Chunmey, Staley(maybe) etc camp and the like camp and I'm in the MJAA, UMJC camp and the like.

 

[visionary]

Back to OP

May your life be a living sacrifice, that sin may not be found in you. Everything in the temple service shows that sins and the bodies that harbor sins are burnt up to ashes before God. The burning of sins is performed in the outer court at the altar of sacrifice. Sin will melt like wax before the fire in the presence of God.

Micah 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Yeshua Christ:

Zechariah 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her

The importance of repentance and purification before the coming of the Lord can not be stressed enough. It is an almighty powerful, Holy God that will be coming in all His glory.

 

[Shimshon]

Those that are steeped into Hebrew Roots, One Law doctrine wouldn't agree with the likes of Jonathon Bernis because he is part of the pioneers(later) of Messianic Judaism which would be more in line with Judaism. The likes of Chumney those in Hebrew Roots and One Law would agree with for the most part because of being in opposition of orthodox/traditional Judaism and having one Law doctrine.

Sounds to me like your in the Chunmey, Staley(maybe) etc camp and the like camp and I'm in the MJAA, UMJC camp and the like.

Very well put, Marc.

 

[Yahudim]

Now I get it!

Thank you Annie! At last, I have seen the light! What we are dealing with isn't logic. It really isn't 'belief' although there are certainly some who have swallowed this line "hook line and sinker".

For the longest time, I could not figure out why there seemed to be some posters (members and otherwise) who would not really discuss, some who would and others who would inundate with blather, cut and paste and logic similar to Sheldon Cooper. Yet they all seem to have 'something' in common; one thing in common.

"What line", you might ask? It's the Party Line! The tenets and doctrines of Apostolic Messianic Judaism is being replaced by UMJC, MJAA, MJRC and the like. It's like the old adage, "The right way, the wrong way and the Army way." There is no room for discussion here. Not really. Just conformity to the UMJC party line.

There is no shortage of failures in academia, but they cloak their decisions in the shrouds of the scholastic for the sake of legitimacy. They claim to be the originators of Messianic Judaism, the first to coin the phrase "Messianic Judaism", as if our predecessors in the faith were lacked the common sense to distinguish the difference; as if coining a phrase gave them special privilege in deciding doctrine for all who would follow, "The Way, the Truth and the Life!".

"And what is the Party Line", you may ask? There is one consistent message in all of this blather: Torah is not for Goyim. It is only for Jews. Messianic Judaism is for Jews, not Goyim. Go get your blessings from Abraham. Go back to church.

That is the common failing here. The lack of common sense, reminiscent of when the great mathematician and physicist, Albert Einstein had the keel removed from his sailboat. He wanted to be able to sail over the reef at the end of the bay. His experiment failed, not because the boat leaked, but because it, like this doctrine, lacked balance.

This is the backhanded message of this OP embedded in the sophistic question, "Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?" Well here is some common sense for you: Repeating something ad nausium does not make it true. Unfortunately there is common sense in this approach: Repeating something ad nausium does make it known. And a certain number of people will accept anything if repeated often enough.

This may be the belief of UMJC and the like, but it is strictly forbidden by our SoP and not supported by Torah. Torah always made a way for the Goyim to join Israel and Torah, unlike the UMJC, does not require you to undergo a conversion not recognized by any Jewish body, or to go through one that is, but only if you curse Messiah first. This is another example of a failed approach that lacks balance and common sense.

Again, thank you. Now I know exactly what to do.

The mjaa =Messianic jewish alliance of America, formerly the Hebrew Christian association. The pioneers of the the Messianic movement. They were the first to call their faith "Messianic Judaism"
umjc=union of messianic Jewish congregations.
MJRC = Messianic Jewish Rabbinical council

I am not so much talking about you personally, but these organizations are often mocked here as ABC organizations. In fact just a few days ago, the mjrc was mocked for having converted Messianic Gentile Derek leman through circumcision. What you describe could easily be said of the messianic movement today.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Now I get it!

Thank you Annie! At last, I have seen the light! What we are dealing with isn't logic. It really isn't 'belief' although there are certainly some who have swallowed this line "hook line and sinker".

For the longest time, I could not figure out why there seemed to be some posters (members and otherwise) who would not really discuss, some who would and others who would inundate with blather, cut and paste and logic similar to Sheldon Cooper. Yet they all seem to have 'something' in common; one thing in common.

"What line", you might ask? It's the Party Line! The tenets and doctrines of Apostolic Messianic Judaism is being replaced by UMJC, MJAA, MJRC and the like. It's like the old adage, "The right way, the wrong way and the Army way." There is no room for discussion here. Not really. Just conformity to the UMJC party line.

There is no shortage of failures in academia, but they cloak their decisions in the shrouds of the scholastic for the sake of legitimacy. They claim to be the originators of Messianic Judaism, the first to coin the phrase "Messianic Judaism", as if our predecessors in the faith were lacked the common sense to distinguish the difference; as if coining a phrase gave them special privilege in deciding doctrine for all who would follow, "The Way, the Truth and the Life!".

"And what is the Party Line", you may ask? There is one consistent message in all of this blather: Torah is not for Goyim. It is only for Jews. Messianic Judaism is for Jews, not Goyim. Go get your blessings from Abraham. Go back to church.

That is the common failing here. The lack of common sense, reminiscent of when the great mathematician and physicist, Albert Einstein had the keel removed from his sailboat. He wanted to be able to sail over the reef at the end of the bay. His experiment failed, not because the boat leaked, but because it, like this doctrine, lacked balance.

This is the backhanded message of this OP embedded in the sophistic question, "Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?" Well here is some common sense for you: Repeating something ad nausium does not make it true. Unfortunately there is common sense in this approach: Repeating something ad nausium does make it known. And a certain number of people will accept anything if repeated often enough.

This may be the belief of UMJC and the like, but it is strictly forbidden by our SoP and not supported by Torah. Torah always made a way for the Goyim to join Israel and Torah, unlike the UMJC, does not require you to undergo a conversion not recognized by any Jewish body, or to go through one that is, but only if you curse Messiah first. This is another example of a failed approach that lacks balance and common sense.

Again, thank you. Now I know exactly what to do.

Actually you don't have it right. The MJAA and UMJC view is not for Gentiles to stay in the church, geez!

I never and the MJAA and UMJC has said that the Torah is for Jews only. In the context of the New Testament since the Temple was present. Even all Judaism's agree that there is One Law but the law applies differently depending who you are; man, woman, Jew, Gentile. Are you as a Gentile since you are a believer in Israel's Messiah 'subject' to the Torah? Yes but not in the same matter as a native born. The Abrahamic covenant which is everlasting and unconditional still applies for Jews to circumcise our males(Brit Milah), as a Gentile you're not subject to that. It's just the way it is. What about a Passover Seder? There's no law that says a Gentile have or participate in a Seder, in fact the MJAA and UMJC encourages it.

Jewish indentity is very important in the Messianic Jewish movement(Romans 11). Read and digest Romans 11. And yes the prophets write about the Nations coming to know the One True G-d. Notice the nations stay as the nations, why is that such a bad thing?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This may be the belief of UMJC and the like, but it is strictly forbidden by our SoP and not supported by Torah. Torah always made a way for the Goyim to join Israel and Torah, unlike the UMJC, does not require you to undergo a conversion not recognized by any Jewish body, or to go through one that is, but only if you curse Messiah first. This is another example of a failed approach that lacks balance and common sense.

So you're right and the rabbi's are wrong? Maybe join the Chabad forum
and debate there too.

 

[Shimshon]

Actually you don't have it right. The MJAA and UMJC view is not for Gentiles to stay in the church, geez!

I never and the MJAA and UMJC has said that the Torah is for Jews only.

Right! But if you say it long enough it becomes truth, right?!?