Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[HannibalFlavius]

Why did James address the 12 tribes?

Because in James's day. pre Pauline days, the majority of the Way was made up of tens of thousands of Jews who had believed and many of them had lost houses, family, business because of the way they believed and they were downtrodden.

James is written to all believers showing the fruits of good works, and it is those good works that is the outcome of faith in imitating Christ.

To be a servant to all, and this was to everyone, but when James was written, it was written like a comfort letter to the majority of the church at that time.

The whole church changed later in Paul's day and continued to change until there was more gentiles than Jews, and until Gentiles finally took over the reigns. And that was bad.

 

[annier]

Annier, I am a little slow.

I didn't read everything here.

Are we discussing whether or not James is written to Gentiles or not?

Just asking.

Just agreeing with Marc, especially the Abrahamic covenant.

 

[annier]

Why did James address the 12 tribes?

Because in James's day. pre Pauline days, the majority of the Way was made up of tens of thousands of Jews who had believed and many of them had lost houses, family, business because of the way they believed and they were downtrodden.

James is written to all believers showing the fruits of good works, and it is those good works that is the outcome of faith in imitating Christ.

To be a servant to all, and this was to everyone, but when James was written, it was written like a comfort letter to the majority of the church at that time.

The whole church changed later in Paul's day and continued to change until there was more gentiles than Jews, and until Gentiles finally took over the reigns. And that was bad.

James day, and Paul's are the same period.....? There was no earlier James day, and later Paul's day.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Just agreeing with Marc, especially the Abrahamic covenant.

I don't know about a covenant of Abraham outside of the only one covenant.

The covenant of Abraham is passed through Isaac and through Jacob.

Then after Jacob received the same promises, a new covenant was made from the same covenant, only something was changed.


This covenant is given to Judah and Ephraim.


Is it somebodies belief that there is an extra covenant besides the one?

Do people suppose there is a covenant for one people and a different one for others?

The way I see it, is that there is one covenant and people are added to the one.



There is however 3 sections of heaven and everyone will not be treated the same.

The Temple is a progressive walk.


I am a Gentile but I make the claim to be under the covenant that was given to Judah and Joseph.

The same one Jews are under.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

James day, and Paul's are the same period.....? There was no earlier James day, and later Paul's day.

There was an evolution of the church as it went through many changes.

It literally went from being mostly Jewish to mostly gentile after Peter and Paul were gone.

If James the Just wrote James about 40 a.d, he is addressing the people during a time when it was mostly Jewish, and that letter address to people who were suffering and being persecuted for what they believed in. It would only be natural for him to addressed a letter of comfort to the majority of Jews in peril at that time.

Either way, He addressed everyone who believed in Christ.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

James 1:

18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

 

[annier]

I don't know about a covenant of Abraham outside of the only one covenant.

The covenant of Abraham is passed through Isaac and through Jacob.

Actually there are two covenants made with Abraham. The women, Hagar and Sarah, serve as an allegory for them.
The first covenant in effect was the covenant of circumcision. As it was established in Isaac, the first generation of his seed. The other covenant concerned the fourth generation of his seed.

Then after Jacob received the same promises, a new covenant was made from the same covenant, only something was changed.


This covenant is given to Judah and Ephraim.


Is it somebodies belief that there is an extra covenant besides the one?

Do people suppose there is a covenant for one people and a different one for others?

The way I see it, is that there is one covenant and people are added to the one.



There is however 3 sections of heaven and everyone will not be treated the same.

The Temple is a progressive walk.


I am a Gentile but I make the claim to be under the covenant that was given to Judah and Joseph.

The same one Jews are under.

First of all scripture teaches that an established covenant is neither taken away from nor added to. The covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh, was established in Isaac.

Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

The covenant made in the blood of animals was put into effect in the fourth Generation.

Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


It is the covenant which brought them out of slavery.
Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

If you read the law, it is always the covenant made with their Father Abraham, that brings God's mercy, when he becomes wrathful to Israel.
Le 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Le 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Le 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

The mercy of that covenant was not abolished, by the later covenant given at Sinai. What did occur IMO. The increasing sin of the nation of Israel, under the law, then caused increased grace as the previous covenant was never abolished but continued.

It is why they are back in the land today.


There is alot of things being missed which the law teaches concerning these things that you might be surprised, if you do not pay much attention to Paul, I dunno.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Actually there are two covenants made with Abraham. The women, Hagar and Sarah, serve as an allegory for them.
The first covenant in effect was the covenant of circumcision. As it was established in Isaac, the first generation of his seed. The other covenant concerned the fourth generation of his seed.

First of all scripture teaches that an established covenant is neither taken away from nor added to. The covenant of circumcision in the foreskin of the flesh, was established in Isaac.

Ge 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

The covenant made in the blood of animals was established in the fourth Generation.

Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


It is the covenant which brought them out of slavery.
Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

If you read the law, it is always the covenant made with their Father Abraham, that brings God's mercy, when he becomes wrathful to Israel.
Le 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Le 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Le 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

The mercy of that covenant was not abolished, by the later covenant given at Sinai. What did occur IMO. The increasing sin of the nation of Israel, under the law, then caused increased grace as the previous covenant was never abolished but continued.

It is why they are back in the land today.


There is alot of things being missed which the law teaches concerning these things that you might be surprised, if you do not pay much attention to Paul, I dunno.

I still see just one covenant.


Were you taken out of Egypt?

Did you cross the waters?

Did you become a new creature born of Christ hoping to be the firstfruits?


I see the Jews, and I see their covenant.

I also see the gentiles and their covenant, their covenant is through marriage to a Jew.

And this is to be redeemed into Israel.

 

[etZion]

A cop out. You forget that it's the Abrahamic covenant, that all nations will be blessed. It's not by means of the Mosaic covenant. Paul's whole theology is based on Abraham.

If tearing down a straw man was the goal of our debates, this is the best one yet.

 

[annier]

I still see just one covenant.

How do you see only one?
There is one covenant made with Abraham here.....
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning … : Heb. a lamp of fire}
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

There is another covenant made here......

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere}
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations}
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude}
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. {wherein … : Heb. of thy sojournings}
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. {he that is eight … : Heb. a son of eight days}
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Hannibal do you see the promise of the resurrection to Abraham in the passages I quoted above?

 

[visionary]

If tearing down a straw man was the goal of our debates, this is the best one yet.

Defending the sandy foundation is hard work and it doesn't hold up under scrutiny, so accusation and name calling reveal the weakness in the tired old way of thinking..

 

[annier]

There was an evolution of the church as it went through many changes.

It literally went from being mostly Jewish to mostly gentile after Peter and Paul were gone.

If James the Just wrote James about 40 a.d, he is addressing the people during a time when it was mostly Jewish, and that letter address to people who were suffering and being persecuted for what they believed in. It would only be natural for him to addressed a letter of comfort to the majority of Jews in peril at that time.

Either way, He addressed everyone who believed in Christ.

What you say above seems to be a reality in the mj movement. I am sorry HF, but I have seen a lot of you Gentiles (of which mj mostly is made up) mock the Jewish Messianic leadership in disagreement with them. Calling their organizations of leadership ABC organizations. You might want to think about that. Marc's views represent the Jewish leadership which brought about the modern Messianic movement. Many of them do not even come here anymore because of it. Just sayin

 

[HannibalFlavius]

What you say above seems to be a reality in the mj movement. I am sorry HF, but I have seen a lot of you Gentiles (of which mj mostly is made up) mock the Jewish Messianic leadership in disagreement with them.

I really don't know what you mean.

First off, I know nothing of this Messianic leadership, and how could I then mock them?

I got to where I believe from my own journey.

I haven't known any messianic besides this place, and I have no idea what the majority of Messianics believe.

Am I to assume that I have some leader somewhere?

 

[annier]

I really don't know what you mean.

First off, I know nothing of this Messianic leadership, and how could I then mock them?

I got to where I believe from my own journey.

I haven't known any messianic besides this place, and I have no idea what the majority of Messianics believe.

Am I to assume that I have some leader somewhere?

The mjaa =Messianic jewish alliance of America, formerly the Hebrew Christian association. The pioneers of the the Messianic movement. They were the first to call their faith "Messianic Judaism"
umjc=union of messianic Jewish congregations.
MJRC = Messianic Jewish Rabbinical council

I am not so much talking about you personally, but these organizations are often mocked here as ABC organizations. In fact just a few days ago, the mjrc was mocked for having converted Messianic Gentile Derek leman through circumcision. What you describe could easily be said of the messianic movement today.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

What you say above seems to be a reality in the mj movement. I am sorry HF, but I have seen a lot of you Gentiles (of which mj mostly is made up) mock the Jewish Messianic leadership in disagreement with them. Calling their organizations of leadership ABC organizations. You might want to think about that. Marc's views represent the Jewish leadership which brought about the modern Messianic movement. Many of them do not even come here anymore because of it. Just sayin

A lot of us Gentiles?

I am not a Gentile


Those leaders are nothing to me, I don't set out to mock anyone, but I have no leaders, and I certainly wouldn't follow an association just because they think they are the original.

I have found some of them to be profoundly wrong.

I have no agenda against them.

 

[annier]

A lot of us Gentiles?

I am not a Gentile


Those leaders are nothing to me, I don't set out to mock anyone, but I have no leaders, and I certainly wouldn't follow an association just because they think they are the original.

I have found many of them to be profoundly wrong.

Well there ya have it then....

 

[visionary]

Yeshua is our King.. our ruler.. our guidance in spiritual matters. If any leadership chooses tradition over Him and His Torah, then it is a matter than needs to be corrected just like Peter was corrected on His understanding...

Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

and especially in this particular sore spot amongst us.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

and as such.. the first come first served attitude needs to change.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Has not God shown this to you? Why is it so difficult to see?

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

This spirit of division is not of God. Gentiles will be amongst the saints awaiting His Return. They will be grafted in members of the body and will no longer be considered strangers or aliens or gentiles in spirit, but one of the brethren.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Well there ya have it then....

Have what?

I am sorry I am so slow, I feel I am being insulted but don't know how.

Its like you think I have some agenda to bring some type of force to its knees and I literally don't know what you mean.

 

[annier]

Yeshua is our King.. our ruler.. our guidance in spiritual matters. If any leadership chooses tradition over Him and His Torah, then it is a matter than needs to be corrected just like Peter was corrected on His understanding... and especially in this particular sore spot amongst us. and as such.. the first come first served attitude needs to change. Has not God shown this to you? Why is it so difficult to see?This spirit of division is not of God. Gentiles will be amongst the saints awaiting His Return. They will be grafted in members of the body and will no longer be considered strangers or aliens or gentiles in spirit, but one of the brethren.

Visionary, that is peaking of the priesthood and God's house.
See, it speaks of BOTH, being reconciled unto God. Not Just the Gentile.

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Again BOTH, those far off (Gentiles) and those Nigh (Jews)

17 And came and preached peace toyou which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Again BOTH

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Jews were not citizens with the priests (Saints) in Gods house.

Speaking of the Priesthood.... Speaking of the Jews as strangers here

eating of the holy things

Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

Of the anointing oil

Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.

Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.

The priests daughter may not eat if she marries a non Levite and has children with him

Le 22:12 If the priest&#8217;s daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things.

Le 22:13 But if the priest&#8217;s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father&#8217;s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father&#8217;s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.

Nu 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest&#8217;s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

Levites joined to the sons of Aaron...

Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.

Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest&#8217;s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest&#8217;s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.