Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[etZion]

A New Covenant
31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Gentiles have no covenant, the covenant is between Israel and Judah, if you are not of Israel and Judah, the new covenant does not apply to you.

Correct.

The law, the prophets and the promises stand without any New Testament.

That's not exactly true, the Covenant's all carry the Promise of the Messiah. You might have had Galatians 3:18 in mind, but it is only speaking of one Promise, the Messiah, however there are other promises and other blessings and laws that exist only in the covenants. Now, One Law proponents such as myself, believe that gentiles are part of these covenants today, due to the Messiah as evidenced in Ephesians 2: strangers to the covenants of promise, but now in Messiah, no longer strangers.

Those who are not One Law proponents, such as Marc, generally believe gentiles share in all the blessings of the covenants, without actually being part of the covenant, thus without any of the responsibilities or obligations, which means, it pays to be a gentile! , but this also goes against the grain of Yeshua's teaching, about making disciples of the nations, not simply believers.

The New covenant is not for gentiles.

I agree that the New Covenant is only made with Israel, but Yeshua has made way for gentiles to come in, just as God has always allowed for such things to happen, Paul referred to this as the grafting of wild branches into a natural tree. Paul also claims that in the Messiah, gentiles are now part of the commonwealth of Israel. A place the rest of the gentile world outside of Yeshua, has no place in.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hi Marc,

Two House? Marc, I had no idea that you were a Two House proponent! I presume that you are because you brought it up. Why else would you do that? I certainly didn't say anything about it. Nice try.

Chaver, you have a bad habit of ignoring what you don't wish to acknowledge. You often change the subject when it gets difficult to defend your position. Your responses have been one or two lines that often state a view without explaining it. If all you have is opinion, why do you bother to discuss?

Yes there were Jews. That is hardly the point. There weren't JUST Jews. Do you think that the '...lost sheep of the house of Israel' means just Jews? Or do you think that Y'shua was a 'Two House' proponent? Do you think that there might be more than just Jews living as aliens (read: just like the Goyim) in the diaspora? Do you think that Y'shua might have conveyed that particular calling (to the lost sheep e.g. the scattered tribes) to His Apostles? I'm thinking yes.

Which 'diaspora' do you think Peter was addressing? Since the Jews had not been scattered out of the land at the time of this writing; I'm thinking it was the earlier ones, like the Babylonian and Assyrian diasporas. So I'm thinking this probably includes Israelites of both the Northern and Southern kingdoms that had been separated from their brethren, as I said in my post. I'm also pretty sure that Peter's reference to Hosea was a dead giveaway that he was addressing Northern tribe descendants too. Why bring up that prophecy if his point wasn't that it was being fulfilled in Messiah? None that I know. How about you?

There are (I'm guessing) ten or twelve questions in this post plus a number of logical assertions. Let's do something different, just for fun. Try addressing them directly and offer some type of logic, historical proof and/or scripture to reinforce your view. Anyone can spout opinions. Everyone has one. I already know yours. Now tell us how you came to those conclusions, OK?

Blessings,
Phillip

I've stated one or two lines with scripture. The Jews were certainly scattered. As James says unquote "to the 12 tribes scattered abroad". And Peter referred to the same thing.

Context is key which includes the audience who the Apostle's we're writing too. That would be the who the letter is too. Now you could apply a 'spiritual' application however it doesn't negate who the letter was written too.

Nice try. You're post has 2 house written all over it. There have been papers written against it, Tim Hegg being one.

Those who are not One Law proponents generally believe gentiles share in all the blessings of the covenants, without any of the responsibilities or obligations, which means, it pays to be a gentile!

It is not it pays to be a gentile, it's who you are. Nothing wrong with it. God accepts Jew and gentile on equal ground.

 

[visionary]

There comes a time when it is necessary to leave the outer court. As it is prophesied in Daniel, this part of the sanctuary services will be taken away, by the overflowing abominations.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations were determined.

For those that are not familiar with Daniel, he was given a vision of the last days, which has puzzled many for centuries.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

This has been the puzzle in prophecy that many have tried to calculate using the numbers provided as to when
this occurred or is still to occur. The sanctuary mentioned in this prophecy is not an earthly sanctuary or temple in Jerusalem; but the Temple of God, which is the divine original Moses was shown in the mountain and of which he made an earthly copy.

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

According to this prophecy in Daniel the Antichrist (the Little Horn) is scheduled to desecrate the Temple of God by his very presence. He will enter in the outer court of the Temple of God where the daily sacrifices are performed and will blasphemously challenge the Prince of the heavenly host.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10: And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11: Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The heavenly host cast down to the ground by the Little Horn are the holy angels who surround the throne of God, and because of following under the guidance of Lucifer, the dragon, these angels also fell into his deception and are to be cast of out of heaven.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Remember that stars are angels whether they are good or bad in prophecy.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The war in heaven affects us, for the dragon comes after us knowing His time is short.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Winds are used to describe mighty beliefs that consume the mind, they can be brought about through deception which comes from the Devil, and they can also be from the mighty workings of our Lord through the Holy Spirit.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Jeremiah 49:36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Turmoil and tribulation among the nations, strife stirring up the masses, all are making the rushing about, rushing sounds of many waters, or winds.

Isaiah 17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

Since we are in the middle of the final battlefield, there is two types of winds, the winds of strife which is the working of the devil, so if you are stirred up to manifest an angry, hateful, evil intent, then it is not of God. The workings of the Lord which are to wake us up from dead works and beliefs into a new life with His Spirit in us and to do the good works that God has commanded us to do, peculiar given the circumstances, but understandable in the light of gospel and in the hope of salvation.

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Isaiah 17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

The great sea is the multitudes upon the earth, the vast human sea of humanity which the four winds like doctrines strive to control our minds, those to bring us closer to the Lord and those to lead us into servitude to the Antichrist.

Daniel 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Zechariah 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
At the sound of the trumpets, the message will get to the people of God and they will gather from the four corners of earth into the truth.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are four winds of earth which are the winds of strife that the devil can stir up, and they are being held back from having full sway upon the multitudes until every one has a chance to receive the seal of the Living God.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree

You remember the parable that the Lord told about building the house on the rock, so that when the winds blew and the floods came, it was not moved. We understand the foundation for the house was a solid foundation of Christ. Building a foundation for the Temple of God which you are, in which God may dwell will need to be strong to withstand every wind of doctrine, and the over flooding of satanic deceptive lies manifested to deceive the very elect in the last hours of earth’s history.

Matthew 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

So how are the people of God to be prepared for this experience that the world has and not be over come in some deception of Satan. They are themselves to have an experience with God, in their Temple. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit will seal them to the truth. Just as the disciples were told to stay in the upper room until the Holy Spirit comes, so are we to wait upon the Lord, praying for deliverance only He can give us. Praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that we might walk in the light of truth.

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

In Daniel’s prophecy the Prince of princes is none other that Yeshua, who is currently officiating in the heavenly sanctuary. When the Antichrist stops the offering of the daily sacrifice it will be at the Temple of God in the outer court. So you ask “how can the daily sacrifice be stopped by Satan?” If Satan can stop people from praying for repentance, there is no need for the daily sacrifice and its service. If Satan can get people to not look to Yeshua, for one reason or another, then there is no need for Yeshua to perform the daily sacrifice priestly service. Maybe they believe Satan to be Yeshua.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Satan will be doing a great imitation of the second coming of Yeshua before Yeshua returns and if they believe Satan to be Yeshua then you will have no more requests for forgiveness, no more repentance and therefore no more need for the heavenly daily services. Let’s say the world no longer repents for they now believe it is no longer necessary because they live under His Grace or some other deceptive lie fostered by some institution that they have trusted to be keepers of the truth. These keepers of the truth have taken upon themselves to lead the people away from the truth as it is found in Christ.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

With a false concept of justification, faith, sanctification and grace, people under a great deception will unwittingly, unknowingly be serving another god. As we get into the ministry in the Holy Place and the Most Holy, you will see how the daily sacrifice can be stopped.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Correct.



That's not exactly true, the Covenant's all carry the Promise of the Messiah. You might have had Galatians 3:18 in mind, but it is only speaking of one Promise, the Messiah, however there are other promises and other blessings and laws that exist only in the covenants. Now, One Law proponents such as myself, believe that gentiles are part of these covenants today, due to the Messiah as evidenced in Ephesians 2: strangers to the covenants of promise, but now in Messiah, no longer strangers.

Those who are not One Law proponents, such as Marc, generally believe gentiles share in all the blessings of the covenants, without actually being part of the covenant, thus without any of the responsibilities or obligations, which means, it pays to be a gentile! , but this also goes against the grain of Yeshua's teaching, about making disciples of the nations, not simply believers.



I agree that the New Covenant is only made with Israel, but Yeshua has made way for gentiles to come in, just as God has always allowed for such things to happen, Paul referred to this as the grafting of wild branches into a natural tree. Paul also claims that in the Messiah, gentiles are now part of the commonwealth of Israel. A place the rest of the gentile world outside of Yeshua, has no place in.

If Jesus made a way for gentiles to be a part of the covenant, then they are only a part of Israel or Judah, one or the other.


The covenant is only for Judah and Israel, and we can see what happens to the gentiles who are not considered true Israel in Revelation 7, Revelation 11, Revelation 14, and many other places.

They are not counted, they are not considered true Israel, they do not receive the protective seal between the eyes and on the arms, they do not receive resurrection in the Messianic age when they are not counted as the firstfruits.


People today talk about this covenant with gentiles in Jesus day, and we see Gentiles and Jews made one man, when the two became as one.

This however is no longer the case.

Now the gentile thinks he can stand alone when he cannot.

There is no longer one man made out of the two because the one separated from the other, and they have no place amongst the children of Israel unless they have become one with the children of Israel.

If they are grafted into the house of Israel, their objective is to cease being a gentile.

 

[etZion]

If Jesus made a way for gentiles to be a part of the covenant, then they are only a part of Israel or Judah, one or the other.


The covenant is only for Judah and Israel, and we can see what happens to the gentiles who are not considered true Israel in Revelation 7, Revelation 11, Revelation 14, and many other places.

They are not counted, they are not considered true Israel, they do not receive the protective seal between the eyes and on the arms, they do not receive resurrection in the Messianic age when they are not counted as the firstfruits.


People today talk about this covenant with gentiles in Jesus day, and we see Gentiles and Jews made one man, when the two became as one.

This however is no longer the case.

Now the gentile thinks he can stand alone when he cannot.

There is no longer one man made out of the two because the one separated from the other, and they have no place amongst the children of Israel unless they have become one with the children of Israel.

If they are grafted into the house of Israel, their objective is to cease being a gentile.

There is nothing wrong with being a Gentile, like Noah or Abraham, the issue is how you live your life... such as Ephesians 4:18 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do..., note that this verse does not say, "do not be a gentile", too late...

We are no longer to live as gentiles, but instead to live like Jews, as Paul says to imitate Him, and Yeshua said to be imitators of me, etc. This does not mean though, that a gentile has to stop being who God created him/her to be, no one can change their ethnicity, and it would be worthless to do so anyhow.

I personally do not want to be a Jew, I don't say that negatively, I love my Jewish brethren, but I want to be, who God created me to be. Even in the era of Biblical Judaism, gentiles "who were likened to native borns", did not become Jews. They remained as strangers in the land, and they were to be treated as if they were a native born. I see the same thing in Yeshua, gentiles in Messiah are now part of Israel, while remaining gentiles.

 

[etZion]

It is not it pays to be a gentile, it's who you are. Nothing wrong with it. God accepts Jew and gentile on equal ground.

This sounds like a cop out...

If it were that simple, gentiles should never be allowed to join the covenants.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This sounds like a cop out...

If it were that simple, gentiles should never be allowed to join the covenants.

A cop out. You forget that it's the Abrahamic covenant, that all nations will be blessed. It's not by means of the Mosaic covenant. Paul's whole theology is based on Abraham.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

There is nothing wrong with being a Gentile, like Noah or Abraham, the issue is how you live your life... such as Ephesians 4:18 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do..., note that this verse does not say, "do not be a gentile", too late...

We are no longer to live as gentiles, but instead to live like Jews, as Paul says to imitate Him, and Yeshua said to be imitators of me, etc. This does not mean though, that a gentile has to stop being who God created him/her to be, no one can change their ethnicity, and it would be worthless to do so anyhow.

I personally do not want to be a Jew, I don't say that negatively, I love my Jewish brethren, but I want to be, who God created me to be. Even in the era of Biblical Judaism, gentiles "who were likened to native borns", did not become Jews. They remained as strangers in the land, and they were to be treated as if they were a native born. I see the same thing in Yeshua, gentiles in Messiah are now part of Israel, while remaining gentiles.

Oh but there is something definitely wrong with being a gentile with no Jew.


Gentiles are standing about as if the kingdom can come, when it cannot.


The kingdom will only come when Gentiles are freaked out so badly that they realize they are alone without the Jew.

This is the reason that one day the world brings the wealth of the nations to the feet of Israel.


The Gentiles can do nothing or be nothing without the Jews at their side. Until Gentiles return with loyalty to their brother, Gentiles are in trouble.


Gentiles stand there and say,'' O We are saved.''


But unless the gentile nations become one with the Jewish nation, there is no man.


Jesus came to make two, one.


When the one has departed from the other, you have a man cut in half.


They were as one in the first church, but they are no longer one.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Should we look at mainstream Christianity and tell them they are saved under the same covenant that Jews are under?


This covenant of the Gentiles, it is a covenant that accepts the traditions of Pagan gods, and has feast days and Sabbaths that originated in Babylon.

This covenant changed the very word of God and goes against everything that is called of God or that is worshiped.

It has changed the times and the seasons so as to not have the same promises found in the 7 feast days of Christ.

This New religion of Christ that supposedly makes the gentile one with the Jew makes laws against any Jew, or against any Christian who would take up any Jewish law or custom.

This new religion is quite the opposite and enemy of the first religion, but yet we hear that we have gentiles claiming to be Israel and having nothing to do with the ways of the God of Israel.

Gentiles have one purpose, and that purpose was to remain loyal to Judah, and we have failed, not only did we fail, but we made ourselves the bitter enemy of the Jew and anyone who treasured the ways of God.

How is a Gentile become Israel when he sets out to be the enemy of Israel and the enemy of the God of Israel?

 

[annier]

A cop out. You forget that it's the Abrahamic covenant, that all nations will be blessed. It's not by means of the Mosaic covenant. Paul's whole theology is based on Abraham.

The Levites are not heirs with Israel, by the law, but by the Abrahamic covenant as well. Gentiles, Levites both not heirs with Israel by the law, are heirs in Christ through the promises made to their fathers in Christ Jesus. Which was before the law.

 

[annier]

Should we look at mainstream Christianity and tell them they are saved under the same covenant that Jews are under?


This covenant of the Gentiles, it is a covenant that accepts the traditions of Pagan gods, and has feast days and Sabbaths that originated in Babylon.

This is quite an accusation of us Christians HF.

This covenant changed the very word of God and goes against everything that is called of God or that is worshiped.

It has changed the times and the seasons so as to not have the same promises found in the 7 feast days of Christ.

Christians as far as I know do not really celebrate any feasts which are given through the covenant at Sinai. We celebrate those feasts which were fulfilled in the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. Passover, unleavened bread, firstfruits etc. Are feasts which celebrate the faithfulness of God to keep his promises to Abraham. Which celebration also commemorates his atonement for our sins, which did not occur on the day of atonement. But he has made an atonememt none the less.

This New religion of Christ that supposedly makes the gentile one with the Jew makes laws against any Jew, or against any Christian who would take up any Jewish law or custom.

This new religion is quite the opposite and enemy of the first religion, but yet we hear that we have gentiles claiming to be Israel and having nothing to do with the ways of the God of Israel.

Gentiles have one purpose, and that purpose was to remain loyal to Judah, and we have failed, not only did we fail, but we made ourselves the bitter enemy of the Jew and anyone who treasured the ways of God.

How is a Gentile become Israel when he sets out to be the enemy of Israel and the enemy of the God of Israel?

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

This is quite an accusation of us Christians HF.

Christians as far as I know do not really celebrate any feasts which are given through the covenant at Sinai. We celebrate those feasts which were fulfilled in the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. Passover, unleavened bread, firstfruits etc. Are feasts which celebrate the faithfulness of God to keep his promises to Abraham. Which celebration also commemorates his atonement for our sins, which did not occur on the day of atonement. But he has made an atonememt none the less.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

If the majority of all Christians accept Pagan feasts, and I say what it is, it is just me calling a duck, a duck.


The majority of Christians have traditions and rituals that were derived from Babylon.


I see people qoting from the New Testament all the time, but they are quoting from an era when the Gentile was one with the Jew, and then the gentile separated from the Jew, and from the entire religion of God, and they created their own religion.

Now after they have created their own religion, they quote New Testament that was speaking to people from an entirely different religion.


These quotes from the New Testament was spoken to brave gentiles who gave up all their old ways of their worship with Pagan Gods.

But this was only briefly in time.



About 100 years after Christ died, there was a huge separation that pitted the Messianic Gentile Christian against the Catholic Christian.


This new religion of Rome made laws against the actual worship system of Christ.

They persecuted any gentile wanting to keep the things of Christ instead of the things of Babylon.


Christianity as a whole accepted the Saturnalia.



This is not the same religion as the first gentiles were a part of, to which those quotes in the New Testament speak to.


It simply is what it is.


How do two religions looks so opposite?


Because one departed from the other, and made laws against the other.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I don't say these things to point a finger and say that I am better than somebody, but I point the finger because so many have set to kill not only me, but the whole world.

The Earth is under a curse and until the restoration happens, the Earth remains cursed.


The restoration and the coming of Elijah has one primary function, and that function is to turn the hearts of gentiles to the hearts of Jews.


Elijah was sent to Ahab, not Judah, John the Baptist also went out seeking restoration in bringing two people to make them as one.


But now there is no restoration and its the reason why Jesus talks of a future restoration, because after the restoration occurred, it was again broken, the brotherhood broken in two, and if Gentiles do not return, the Earth will kill us all.

If something is broken, and a clear problem can be seen where this problem is holding back world peace, should we speak of it?

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Marc,

I've stated one or two lines with scripture. The Jews were certainly scattered. As James says unquote "to the 12 tribes scattered abroad". And Peter referred to the same thing.

Taking one or two scriptures out of context to support opinion is not directly addressing each point. This is a tactic that you use often. If you are so sure of your position, simply answer my questions. We may even find some common ground.

You keep bringing up James addressing his missive to the "to the 12 tribes scattered abroad" and insisting that Peter was saying the same thing. Is this your definition of 'Jews'? Because when I said Jews, I meant those with a pedigree approved by the religious leaders of Judea; something I made clear.

So this might be one area where we could find common ground, if only you had said so in the beginning. Because your definition of Jews (if I am correct) goes counter to the presuppositions of the OP; that is, the rulings of the Jewish leadership and who gets access to the Court of Israel. Or did you forget?

Keep in mind that I have nothing against that definition as long as we agree on terms. My assertion is that these 'Jews' (see me switching to your terminology here?) that were scattered, were not living like Jews and were not accepted as Jews in Judea. In fact, many were living like the Goyim among the Goyim, a fact that is well founded. Do you need proofs?

Do you or do you not agree with what I have written so far. Please be specific. Tell me where we agree and disagree. Reading your mind is not a viable option.

Context is key which includes the audience who the Apostle's we're writing too. That would be the who the letter is too. Now you could apply a 'spiritual' application however it doesn't negate who the letter was written too.

Correct! But we must agree on terms in order to establish context. See how that works? I like apples and I like oranges, but one at a time, please!

That is exactly what I was addressing; to whom the letter was written. Please be so good as to show me where I have 'spiritualized' anything. If you would simply answer a direct question with a direct answer, we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.

Nice try. You're post has 2 house written all over it. There have been papers written against it, Tim Hegg being one.

Perhaps your imagination is running away with you. Or perhaps you are simply trying to discredit me by a little mudslinging. I honestly don't know. Mainly because you don't answer my questions, you do not define your terms and you jump to conclusions for which I find no basis.

I've been this Messianic Forum since 2004; for around ten years, so let's ask: Hey everyone! Am I Two House? So again, where the heck did you come up with that BS? I am certainly not an AntiNomian. Is that the stick in your craw?

I greatly admire Tim Hegg and agree with him on most topics. So please show me how Two House doctrine is supported anywhere in my post. Please be specific. You have boldly made the accusation for all to read. Time to put up or shut up. Show me!

It is not it pays to be a gentile, it's who you are. Nothing wrong with it. God accepts Jew and gentile on equal ground.

Nothing wrong with that. But it does not address the point that Goyim become a part of Israel through Y'shua and through Torah. Why do I say both? Because Y'shua IS the Living Torah; He is HaD'var: The Word, the Torah. Where do you think Moshe got Torah from in the first place?

Let's ease up on the mudslinging and stick with the topic, OK? Thanks!

Yours in Messiah,
Phillip

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Taking one or two scriptures out of context to support opinion is not directly addressing each point. This is a tactic that you use often. If you are so sure of your position, simply answer my questions. We may even find some common ground.

The scripture related to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad are not taken out of context, it simply is related to the 12 tribes of Israel.

You keep bringing up James addressing his missive to the "to the 12 tribes scattered abroad" and insisting that Peter was saying the same thing. Is this your definition of 'Jews'? Because when I said Jews, I meant those with a pedigree approved by the religious leaders of Judea; something I made clear.

Jew= child of Israel.

Nothing wrong with that. But it does not address the point that Goyim become a part of Israel through Y'shua and through Torah. Why do I say both? Because Y'shua IS the Living Torah; He is HaD'var: The Word, the Torah. Where do you think Moshe got Torah from in the first place?

Nope it's not through the Torah, it's the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The scripture related to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad are not taken out of context, it simply is related to the 12 tribes of Israel.



Jew= child of Israel.



Nope it's not through the Torah, it's the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Gentile does not equal child of Israel?


There is only Israel, if you are not Israel, then you have a bad problem.


The covenants are to Israel alone.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Roman Pagans dropped all of their traditions and then converted to the religion of God.

Paul went around teaching the Torah when there was no New Testament, Gentiles had to become like Jews because they converted to the same religion as the Jews.

In taking God's Sabbath and God's feast of Tabernacles, they gained a name better than sons and daughters because they denied what they were, and became something else.

They became a Gentile who went about studying the Torah and all the feast days of Jesus and the promises of those feast days.


Imagine how their fellow unbelieving Romans felt when they saw their friends abandon their old ways to take up the ways of the Jew.

Those wannabe Jews.

It was only by the Gentile abandoning what he had done all his life that made him part of Israel, he took up study of the Torah and began to study Jewish things.


The Jews have not kept their identity by blood, they have kept their identity by being a peculiar people unto God, a people who will only have one way and not take up the ways of the other nations.


That's how Jews are known, they stick out like a sore thumb.


If a person converts, he begins to look like the religion he converts too, he becomes that thing.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Marc,

It seems you don't want to address your 'Two House' accusations. I guess that is to be expected.

So, you don't see the difference between who the leaders of ancient Judea defined as Jews and your definition of Jews in terms of your OP? Again, apples and oranges. Or more like 'separate but equal', please step to the back of the bus. Violators will be killed.

The p'shrim would never accept any Goyim, Israelite or Jew that could not document their genealogy through Temple records. That is what determined who stood in the Court of the Goyim and the Court of Israel. that is what this OP is about. That is what I was addressing. Did you lose track? Perhaps its because you switched definitions in midstream.

The covenant of Abraham, what are the main points please. Isn't it primarily about circumcision and who inherits the land? How specifically does it impact the Goyim?

OK Marc, so if the Goyim do not have a part in Torah (according to you), you are saying that Goyim do NOT need to keep the Ten Mitzvot, right? That's Torah, not the covenant of Abraham. So how exactly does that work? Please be specific.

The scripture related to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad are not taken out of context, it simply is related to the 12 tribes of Israel.



Jew= child of Israel.



Nope it's not through the Torah, it's the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[annier]

The scripture related to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad are not taken out of context, it simply is related to the 12 tribes of Israel.



Jew= child of Israel.



Nope it's not through the Torah, it's the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Annier, I am a little slow.

I didn't read everything here.

Are we discussing whether or not James is written to Gentiles or not?

Just asking.