Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[Messianic Jewboy]

Who said anything about salvation, was the salvation of Jews based on circumcision, thus no women could be saved? No neither Jews or Gentiles are saved by circumcision. Are men saved differently than women?



Must for what? Obedience? Salvation?

If obedience to the covenant, yes and no, and woman cannot be circumcised and thus female gentiles are not required to get circumcised to eat the Passover or to keep the command, but a male gentile is.

Jews are circumcised according to the Abrahamic covenant; Abraham>Isaac>Jacob>children of Israel.

 

[visionary]

Jews are circumcised according to the Abrahamic covenant; Abraham>Isaac>Jacob>children of Israel.

Exodus 12:42-44
King James Version (KJV)
42 It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.

43 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Daq,

Obviously, I was not speaking of Goyim usurping the office of Cohen HaGadol; but rather their right to be in the Court of Israel as commanded by Adonai in Torah. (*Notice I call the circumcised Goyim "Israel" and not "Jews".) While your point is interesting and certainly a valid one, it takes away from my point, which is a direct refutation of the OP. By quoting my post and saying, "Apart from the High Priest...", it would appear to the casual reader that you are arguing against my point (which I don't really think you are doing), which is as follows:

All Israel are bound by "One Law" according to direct quotes from Adonai by Moshe. These are not a "dark sayings" or "difficult matters of the law" that require the intervention of a council of Elders. These are what would be termed "legal precedents". Any ruling that would contravene or diminish these direct commandments would necessarily be classified as "adding to" or "taking away" from Torah:

* Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Exodus 12:48-49
48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe Adonai’s Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you.

Leviticus 24:22
22 You are to apply the same standard of judgment to the foreigner as to the citizen, because I am Adonai your God.”

Numbers 9:14
14 If a foreigner is staying with you and wants to observe Pesach for Adonai, he is to do it according to the regulations and rules of Pesach — you are to have the same law for the foreigner as for the citizen of the land.

Numbers 15:15-16
15 For this community there will be the same law for you as for the foreigner living with you; this is a permanent regulation through all your generations; the foreigner is to be treated the same way before Adonai as yourselves. 16 The same Torah and standard of judgment will apply to both you and the foreigner living with you.

Why do I call these Goyim, Israel? Well I didn't. Peter did:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen people,[a] the King’s cohanim, a holy nation,[c] a people for God to possess![d] Why? In order for you to declare the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.[e]

Footnotes:

• "a chosen people"
  Isaiah 43:20
  The wild animals will honor me,
  the jackals and the ostriches;
  because I put water in the desert,
  rivers in the wasteland,
  for my chosen people to drink,
  
  Deuteronomy 7:6
  For you are a people set apart as holy for Adonai your God. Adonai your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his own unique treasure.
  
  Deuteronomy 10:15
  Only Adonai took enough pleasure in your ancestors to love them and choose their descendants after them — yourselves — above all peoples, as he still does today.;
  .
• "the King’s cohanim"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  
  Isaiah 61:6
  but you will be called cohanim of Adonai,
  spoken of as ministers to our God.
  You will feed on the wealth of nations,
  and revel in their riches.
  .
• "a holy nation"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  .
• "a people for God to possess"
  Isaiah 43:21
  the people I formed for myself,
  so that they would proclaim my praise.;
  
  Exodus 19:5
  Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine;
  .
• "Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
  Hosea 2:25(23)
  I will sow her for me in the land.
  I will have pity on Lo-Ruchamah [Unpitied];
  I will say to Lo-‘Ammi [Not-My-People], ‘You are my people’;
  and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”

What you have posted is better seen as a step beyond this point. But the foundation must needs be set for those that follow and read these posts...

Blessing dear chaver!

Apart from the High Priest there is only one creature allowed inside the Holiest Oracle and those creatures are of olive wood overlaid with hammered pure gold having been tried in the fire. Perhaps this is why Yeshua counsels the Laodicean congregation to purchase from him gold having been tried in the fire.

 

[Yahudim]

We do not know if Cornelius was ever circumcised. We only have that brief story of how they were accepted by the Spirit of Separation for their faith. I presume if they followed Torah, sooner or later, he did.
So Marc, are you now turning this thread into one on circumcision? Perhaps you might start a new one so that everyone would know what was being discussed based on the title. Or, you could resurrect an old one...

What about Gentiles who didn't get circumcised, become as a native born? Did they not receive the 'blessing' of salvation? The Cornelius', the Titus'..,

Is it a must that Gentiles be circumcised?

 

[visionary]

Can't find anywhere in scripture where the Gentiles are not guided into the covenant relationship which includes circumcision for Passover.

I just want to be clear... So I underlined the important part.

 

[daq]

Hi Daq,

Obviously, I was not speaking of Goyim usurping the office of Cohen HaGadol; but rather their right to be in the Court of Israel as commanded by Adonai in Torah. (*Notice I call the circumcised Goyim "Israel" and not "Jews".) While your point is interesting and certainly a valid one, it takes away from my point, which is a direct refutation of the OP. By quoting my post and saying, "Apart from the High Priest...", it would appear to the casual reader that you are arguing against my point (which I don't really think you are doing), which is as follows:

All Israel are bound by "One Law" according to direct quotes from Adonai by Moshe. These are not a "dark sayings" or "difficult matters of the law" that require the intervention of a council of Elders. These are what would be termed "legal precedents". Any ruling that would contravene or diminish these direct commandments would necessarily be classified as "adding to" or "taking away" from Torah:

* Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Exodus 12:48-49
48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe Adonai’s Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you.

Leviticus 24:22
22 You are to apply the same standard of judgment to the foreigner as to the citizen, because I am Adonai your God.”

Numbers 9:14
14 If a foreigner is staying with you and wants to observe Pesach for Adonai, he is to do it according to the regulations and rules of Pesach — you are to have the same law for the foreigner as for the citizen of the land.

Numbers 15:15-16
15 For this community there will be the same law for you as for the foreigner living with you; this is a permanent regulation through all your generations; the foreigner is to be treated the same way before Adonai as yourselves. 16 The same Torah and standard of judgment will apply to both you and the foreigner living with you.

Why do I call these Goyim, Israel? Well I didn't. Peter did:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen people,[a] the King’s cohanim, a holy nation,[c] a people for God to possess![d] Why? In order for you to declare the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.[e]

Footnotes:

• "a chosen people"
  Isaiah 43:20
  The wild animals will honor me,
  the jackals and the ostriches;
  because I put water in the desert,
  rivers in the wasteland,
  for my chosen people to drink,
  
  Deuteronomy 7:6
  For you are a people set apart as holy for Adonai your God. Adonai your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his own unique treasure.
  
  Deuteronomy 10:15
  Only Adonai took enough pleasure in your ancestors to love them and choose their descendants after them — yourselves — above all peoples, as he still does today.;
  .
• "the King’s cohanim"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  
  Isaiah 61:6
  but you will be called cohanim of Adonai,
  spoken of as ministers to our God.
  You will feed on the wealth of nations,
  and revel in their riches.
  .
• "a holy nation"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  .
• "a people for God to possess"
  Isaiah 43:21
  the people I formed for myself,
  so that they would proclaim my praise.;
  
  Exodus 19:5
  Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine;
  .
• "Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
  Hosea 2:25(23)
  I will sow her for me in the land.
  I will have pity on Lo-Ruchamah [Unpitied];
  I will say to Lo-‘Ammi [Not-My-People], ‘You are my people’;
  and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”

What you have posted is better seen as a step beyond this point. But the foundation must needs be set for those that follow and read these posts...

Blessing dear chaver!

True I was not arguing against your point at all. Likewise I am in agreement with everything you have posted here. However, I was at the same time still attempting to make the case from my first post in this thread which encompasses most of the directions which the OP has already taken this thread including circumcision. The writer of Hebrews likewise admonishes the reader to enter into "the Holiest", (Hebrews 9:8, 10:19) yet the only way this may be possible, speaking by the Law, is if one is transformed according to the doctrine of Messiah, (for the Law is spiritual and concerns heavenly things such as the Tabernacle which the Most High pitched and not man). Yeshua is the minister of the circumcision according to Paul. Therefore, if one accepts Paul and desires to understand his writings, then this fact cannot be stressed enough. Yet seeing how I did say to the OP already that we are probably speaking from completely different perspectives concerning what is "literal" I suppose I will bow out here and allow him to continue his discussions with you and the others he has addressed more recently. No worries mate!

Romans 15:8-10 ASV
8. For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,
9. and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, Therefore will I give praise unto thee among the Gentiles, And sing unto thy name.
10. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Hebrews 10:19-22 KJV
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.



Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Yahudim]

Excellent point Daq! Kudos!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Exodus 12:42-44
King James Version (KJV)
42 It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.

43 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

Again circumcision is as per the Abrahamic covenant, that's what makes one a child of Israel. The Torah doesn't suggest that one that isn't a child of Israel has to be circumcised.

 

[etZion]

Again circumcision is as per the Abrahamic covenant, that's what makes one a child of Israel. The Torah doesn't suggest that one that isn't a child of Israel has to be circumcised.

By this very same logic, the Torah never suggest that a gentile must follow the God of Israel or to trust in the Messiah. These are simply assumed in the fact that God did not just deliver a bunch of Israelites from Egypt, but also millions of Gentiles.

If God did not intend for gentiles to be part of Israel or to follow Him, there should have never been made provision for their very joining to Israel and Israel should have never been called to be a light to the nations.

Technically your argument can go as far as saying, that gentiles are not required to listen to Yeshua. Only Israel is commanded to do so in Deut 18.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

By this very same logic, the Torah never suggest that a gentile must follow the God of Israel or to trust in the Messiah. These are simply assumed in the fact that God did not just deliver a bunch of Israelites from Egypt, but also millions of Gentiles.

If God did not intend for gentiles to be part of Israel or to follow Him, there should have never been made provision for their very joining to Israel and Israel should have never been called to be a light to the nations.

Technically your argument can go as far as saying, that gentiles are not required to listen to Yeshua. Only Israel is commanded to do so in Deut 18.

Look at the likes of Naman.

 

[visionary]

Again circumcision is as per the Abrahamic covenant, that's what makes one a child of Israel. The Torah doesn't suggest that one that isn't a child of Israel has to be circumcised.

"stranger" suggests "stranger of the covenant".

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom Marc,

Thank you for agreeing. Faith and grace makes one Israel and circumcision as per the Abrahamic covenant is what makes one a child of Israel, a full covenant member. Right! That is EXACTLY what Peter was saying as I posted here!

Why do I call these Goyim, Israel? Well I didn't. Peter did:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen people,[a] the King’s cohanim, a holy nation,[c] a people for God to possess![d] Why? In order for you to declare the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.[e]

Footnotes:

• "a chosen people"
  Isaiah 43:20
  The wild animals will honor me,
  the jackals and the ostriches;
  because I put water in the desert,
  rivers in the wasteland,
  for my chosen people to drink,
  
  Deuteronomy 7:6
  For you are a people set apart as holy for Adonai your God. Adonai your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his own unique treasure.
  
  Deuteronomy 10:15
  Only Adonai took enough pleasure in your ancestors to love them and choose their descendants after them — yourselves — above all peoples, as he still does today.;
  .
• "the King’s cohanim"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  
  Isaiah 61:6
  but you will be called cohanim of Adonai,
  spoken of as ministers to our God.
  You will feed on the wealth of nations,
  and revel in their riches.
  .
• "a holy nation"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  .
• "a people for God to possess"
  Isaiah 43:21
  the people I formed for myself,
  so that they would proclaim my praise.;
  
  Exodus 19:5
  Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine;
  .
• "Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
  Hosea 2:25(23)
  I will sow her for me in the land.
  I will have pity on Lo-Ruchamah [Unpitied];
  I will say to Lo-‘Ammi [Not-My-People], ‘You are my people’;
  and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”

So the same motivation that promted the children of Israel to enter into covenant at Sinai exists for the Goyim to do the same. I am so glad that you agree that there is no difference!

Blessings Chaver,
Phillip

Again circumcision is as per the Abrahamic covenant, that's what makes one a child of Israel. The Torah doesn't suggest that one that isn't a child of Israel has to be circumcised.

 

[etZion]

Look at the likes of Naman.

Or Cyrus, right...? The fact that God makes provisions for gentiles joining the covenant, goes against your very argument, and in fact, in the era of Biblical Judaism, millions of gentiles joined the covenant, which does not help your argument. If it is really unnecessary as you suggested, gentiles should have never been allowed to come into covenant, as you say, there would be no need for a gentile to do so... strangely enough, God thought differently.

 

[annier]

Of course non Jews could participate fully if they become circumcised but is it a requirement to eat the Passover for a non Jew? No it's not.

It would have depended upon which passover wouldn't it? If you are talking about the passover given to Israel by Moses, then Gentiles were not allowed. But if speaking of the Christian passover (the Lord's supper) then I think we are to keep that.

 

[Yahudim]

Keep an open mind Sis. Remember Ezekiel!

It would have depended upon which passover wouldn't it? If you are talking about the passover given to Israel by Moses, then Gentiles were not allowed. But if speaking of the Christian passover (the Lord's supper) then I think we are to keep that.

 

[isleof]

The gentiles have a court? God have mercy on us all.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

It would have depended upon which passover wouldn't it? If you are talking about the passover given to Israel by Moses, then Gentiles were not allowed. But if speaking of the Christian passover (the Lord's supper) then I think we are to keep that.

Yes because the Passover of today is a Seder not a Temple sacrifice.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Or Cyrus, right...? The fact that God makes provisions for gentiles joining the covenant, goes against your very argument, and in fact, in the era of Biblical Judaism, millions of gentiles joined the covenant, which does not help your argument. If it is really unnecessary as you suggested, gentiles should have never been allowed to come into covenant, as you say, there would be no need for a gentile to do so... strangely enough, God thought differently.

There are no provisions. The likes of Naaman, even though Naaman believed in the One True G-d he wouldn't have been able to eat the Passover. This applies to Titus as well, a G-d Fearer and also Cornelius.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Shalom Marc,

Thank you for agreeing. Faith and grace makes one Israel and circumcision as per the Abrahamic covenant is what makes one a child of Israel, a full covenant member. Right! That is EXACTLY what Peter was saying as I posted here!

Why do I call these Goyim, Israel? Well I didn't. Peter did:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen people,[a] the King’s cohanim, a holy nation,[c] a people for God to possess![d] Why? In order for you to declare the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.[e]

Footnotes:

• "a chosen people"
  Isaiah 43:20
  The wild animals will honor me,
  the jackals and the ostriches;
  because I put water in the desert,
  rivers in the wasteland,
  for my chosen people to drink,
  
  Deuteronomy 7:6
  For you are a people set apart as holy for Adonai your God. Adonai your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his own unique treasure.
  
  Deuteronomy 10:15
  Only Adonai took enough pleasure in your ancestors to love them and choose their descendants after them — yourselves — above all peoples, as he still does today.;
  .
• "the King’s cohanim"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  
  Isaiah 61:6
  but you will be called cohanim of Adonai,
  spoken of as ministers to our God.
  You will feed on the wealth of nations,
  and revel in their riches.
  .
• "a holy nation"
  Exodus 19:6
  and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.”;
  .
• "a people for God to possess"
  Isaiah 43:21
  the people I formed for myself,
  so that they would proclaim my praise.;
  
  Exodus 19:5
  Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine;
  .
• "Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; before, you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
  Hosea 2:25(23)
  I will sow her for me in the land.
  I will have pity on Lo-Ruchamah [Unpitied];
  I will say to Lo-‘Ammi [Not-My-People], ‘You are my people’;
  and they will say, ‘You are my God.’”

So the same motivation that promted the children of Israel to enter into covenant at Sinai exists for the Goyim to do the same. I am so glad that you agree that there is no difference!

Blessings Chaver,
Phillip

Context is key. Peter was preaching to Jewish believers not non Jews.

The Epistle begins...

To God’s chosen people, living as aliens in the Diaspora — in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bythinia

 

[daq]

Context is key. Peter was preaching to Jewish believers not non Jews.

The Epistle begins...

To God’s chosen people, living as aliens in the Diaspora — in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bythinia

Because Talmidim said these very same things to me please allow me to respond once more to this. These things are answered in the circumcision not made with hands. Peter is speaking not just to "Jewish believers" (or at least how this statement is understood so often in modern times) but rather the epistle is to "the Circumcision". No one enters into the inner court, even in the supernal, (no matter what he or she claims) without being circumcised, (whether male or female) because this circumcision is of the foreskin of the heart. Modern thinking has reverted to thinking that whenever circumcision is spoke of in the writings it always refers to physical circumcision unless otherwise clearly stated. However this is not true and in fact more likely the exact opposite such as in the following example:

Galatians 2:9 KJV
9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

This "circumcision" at the end of the verse above does not mean people born of Jewish lineage by their mothers' DNA but rather those circumcised into the inner court of the Tabernacle-Temple of above, (Jews by the faith of the Jews, for the Father saves the tents of Judah first, and salvation is unto the Jew first, and salvation is of the Jews). Both of my circumcisions occurred in the eighth day: the first I do not remember, and I count it no more now than I would an infant baptism. However the second circumcision I will surely never forget!

Shalom in Yeshua.