Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[Messianic Jewboy]

Thank you Tal. And you are correct, we have exceeded Marc's questions. Sorry Marc .
I had been excitedly watching the thread here about adding a formal debate forum (not so much for me, not knowledgeable enough) or a discussion forum (would be for me) to allow broader discussion. It seems to have fizzled though.
So yes, I will PM you.
Thanks Tal. And sorry Marc for going beyond what you intended.

Why can't it be the other way around, that I'm sorry for going beyond what you intended?

The fact is as Tal said a Gentile can be circumcised and there is no law against it. The debate is if it's necessary or not for a Gentile to become an Israelite, 'as a native born' so they may partake fully in the Passover.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

OK HannibalFlavius,

I thought I might help you along in your study of the difference between the Temple walls, of which I described. I would suggest that when Sha'ul described the Wall of Hostility in his letters, while using a real wall as a symbol, his intent was to describe the discrimination that was rampant against the Goyim. His goal was to heal the division represented by the physical barrier built in the Temple on Herod.

Court of the Gentiles by Edersheim (* Emphasis mine) It was the rule when entering the Temple to pass in by the right, and when leaving it to go out by the left hand. The great Court of the Gentiles, * which formed the lowest or outer enclosure of the Sanctuary, was paved with the finest variegated marble. We have adopted this name as in common use, though Relandus (Antiq. p. 78) rightly objects that the only term for it used in Jewish writings is the 'mountain of the house.' According to Jewish tradition, it formed a square of 750 feet. Its name is derived from the fact that it was open to all--Jews or Gentiles--provided they observed the prescribed rules of decorum and reverence. In this court tradition places eating and sleeping apartments for the Levites, and a synagogue. But, despite pharisaic punctilliousness, the noise, especially on the eve of the Passover, must have been most disturbing. For there the oxen, sheep, and doves selected as fit for sacrifices were sold as in a market; and here were those tables of the money-changers which the Lord overthrew when He drove from His Father's house them that bought and sold (Matthew 21:12; John 2:14). Within a short distance, in the court, a marble screen 4 1/2 feet high, and beautifully ornamented, bore Greek and Latin inscriptions, warning Gentiles not to proceed, on pain of death. One of those very tablets, bearing almost the same words as those given by Josephus, has been discovered in late excavations. It was because they thought Paul had infringed this order, that the infuriated multitude 'went about to kill him' (Acts 21:31). Beyond this enclosure a flight of fourteen steps, each 9 inches high, led up to a terrace 15 feet broad, called the 'Chel,' which bounded the inner wall of the Temple. We are now approaching the Sanctuary itself, which consisted, first, of three courts, each higher than the former, and, beyond them, of the Holy and Most Holy Places, with their outbuildings. Entering by the principal gate on the east we pass, first into the Court of the Women, thence into that of Israel, and from the latter into that of the Priests. This would have been, so to speak, the natural way of advancing. But there was a nearer road into the Court of the Priests. For both north and south, along the terrace, flights of steps led up to three gates (both north and south), which opened into the Court of the Priests, while a fourth gate (north and south) led into the middle of the Court of the Women. Thus there were nine gates opening from 'the Terrace' into the Sanctuary--the principal one from the east, and four north and south, of which one (north and south) also led into the Court of the Women, and the other three (north and south) into that of the Priests.

Hope this helps.

I have read this at least ten times, I just never put two and two together I guess. Edersheim is like a god to me, one of my top 5 favorite books.


I just didn't know that there was an extra wall built and the Temple design is my biggest hobby.

What I have in my mind is that the Temple is designed in 3 sections, The outer court, the Holy place, and the Holy of Holies.

I don't usually add anything to that, but that is the basic thing that is in my mind.

You brought up a lot of interesting things Talmud, but you don't say that the gentile could enter the Temple do you?

I mean, no gentile could enter in the Holy place?

I don't much think about the womens court or anything but those 3 basic sections.


I mean that, it wasn't ever meant for a gentile to be able to enter the Holy place was it?

 

[annier]

Why can't it be the other way around, that I'm sorry for going beyond what you intended?

The fact is as Tal said a Gentile can be circumcised and there is no law against it. The debate is if it's necessary or not for a Gentile to become an Israelite, 'as a native born' so they may partake fully in the Passover.

I am not exactly sure what all you mean in the above Marc. My thoughts on circumcision, are always connected to the priesthood, in the idea of full participation of the promises concerning Abraham's seed. Which is an inheritance. You had to have citizenship to inherit the land.
So yes I believe it was/is necessary to be of a tribe for full participation in the covenant promises. Passover, unleavened bread etc. are memorials to the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promises made in Genesis 15. The priests ministered for the twelve tribes in memorial. They bore thier iniquity etc. The priests vestments only bore the names of the twelve. That is why Gentiles received tribal affiliation upon circumcision. To have a name bore by the order of Aaron. It is just my opinion that the circumcision cannot be separated from this priestly service.
25:7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
Ex 28:9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
Ex 28:11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
Ex 28:12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

Ex 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.

Ex 39:7 And he put them on the shoulders of the ephod, that they should be stones for a memorial to the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.

I have a question....What was the Memorial/s that the high priest bore on his shoulders ( of Ephod) and his heart (breastplate of Judgment)?

 

[Yahudim]

You forget the Nazarite vow chaver. There was always a way. But this exceeds the OP. You should look around. There is a Temple thread out there somewhere. And if not, you have full posting privileges. Take this wherever you want this to go. I'll help as I am able.

I have read this at least ten times, I just never put two and two together I guess. Edersheim is like a god to me, one of my top 5 favorite books.


I just didn't know that there was an extra wall built and the Temple design is my biggest hobby.

What I have in my mind is that the Temple is designed in 3 sections, The outer court, the Holy place, and the Holy of Holies.

I don't usually add anything to that, but that is the basic thing that is in my mind.

You brought up a lot of interesting things Talmud, but you don't say that the gentile could enter the Temple do you?

I mean, no gentile could enter in the Holy place?

I don't much think about the womens court or anything but those 3 basic sections.


I mean that, it wasn't ever meant for a gentile to be able to enter the Holy place was it?

 

[Yahudim]

...and of course, Torah clearly states that one they do, they are the same as a native born in that case.

The issue of Goyim inheritance in the land is moot, though prophesied. We will cross that prophecy when we come to it.

Why can't it be the other way around, that I'm sorry for going beyond what you intended?

The fact is as Tal said a Gentile can be circumcised and there is no law against it. The debate is if it's necessary or not for a Gentile to become an Israelite, 'as a native born' so they may partake fully in the Passover.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

...and of course, Torah clearly states that one they do, they are the same as a native born in that case.

The issue of Goyim inheritance in the land is moot, though prophesied. We will cross that prophecy when we come to it.

I'm not arguing about that.

 

[Yahudim]

Didn't think you were arguing at all.

I'm not arguing about that.

 

[annier]

I have read this at least ten times, I just never put two and two together I guess. Edersheim is like a god to me, one of my top 5 favorite books.


I just didn't know that there was an extra wall built and the Temple design is my biggest hobby.

What I have in my mind is that the Temple is designed in 3 sections, The outer court, the Holy place, and the Holy of Holies.

I don't usually add anything to that, but that is the basic thing that is in my mind.

You brought up a lot of interesting things Talmud, but you don't say that the gentile could enter the Temple do you?

I mean, no gentile could enter in the Holy place?

I don't much think about the womens court or anything but those 3 basic sections.


I mean that, it wasn't ever meant for a gentile to be able to enter the Holy place was it?

A Jew couldn't either. Only the Levites could enter the sanctuary itself.

 

[Yahudim]

Perhaps better discussed elsewhere, but again, what about a person under a nazarite vow?

A Jew couldn't either. Only the Levites could enter the sanctuary itself.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

...and of course, Torah clearly states that one they do, they are the same as a native born in that case.

The issue of Goyim inheritance in the land is moot, though prophesied. We will cross that prophecy when we come to it.

I have probably been in more Temple threads than anyone in the world. I have read everything, I just forget.

It's a lot to remember though, I mean to have in your head the Tent of Meeting and then to move into the House of Solomon, and then to the house of Ezekiel, and then to the house of Herod, on to the house of humanity and the house of Revelation.

It's the differences between these houses{although I know nothing of Herod's}.


It is so hard.

Especially when you have bad recall.


It seems that Temple is all that I have ever cared about.

O.C.D. ya see.

Everything is that.

Temple design..

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I wished that somebody would just tell me what it is very simply, I know that somebody knows, I just have to find them.


There is a whole plan there, a simple plan in the comings and goings of the Temple.

This simple plan was taken and made extremely complicated, but in the end, it will be very simple.

Somebody out there knows.

 

[etZion]

Hi Ann and Shabbat Shalom,

Thanks for responding. I understand what you are saying; I just don't agree. Here is why.

My point was that before the Wall of Separation, before the court of the Goyim (an artificial construct reflecting the political influences of man exerted on the worship of the God of Israel), the Goyim seekers stood with the Jews in the outer courtyard (a division reflecting the actual Temple service in heaven and Our Father's vision of proper worship according to Torah). The common Jews (as you describe them) were meant to stand with the Goyim in the Outer Courtyard, that they might minister to them about Torah and according to the instructions of Torah.

This division and many other customs designed to keep the Goyim separated was something that your Messiah condemned. In no way was this division comparable to the function of the Cohen, for they ministered for both Jew and the Goy seeker that would draw near. Any Goy that would draw near and observe according to Torah was welcomed by our Creator.

Kings and Priests to the Goyim, remember?

BTW, the OP is posed in Temple times. If, as you say, "...it does not matter where I am standing physically anyway" may be true today. But in terms of the OP, that kinda flies in the face of the whole concept of coming to Jerusalem for the Moedim, bringing a sacrifice or of attending Temple service at all. Everyone had their place and was expected to be in it. That's my understanding.

Aleichem Shalom,
Phillip

Wow, a lot has been said since I was enjoying the Shabbat... Well said Talmidim.

The reality of Acts 10:28 reflects the reality of the Court of the Gentiles perfectly. And the realities of that day. Most people do not realize, the Torah does not teach such a thing. They simply assume Law must be referring to the Torah in this verse. God showed Peter that the Law he had gained this understanding from, was incorrect.

 

[etZion]

The debate is if it's necessary or not for a Gentile to become an Israelite, 'as a native born' so they may partake fully in the Passover.

I am assuming this was the question you were asking me, when you said "what about Pesach?"

Yes, for a gentile male to partake of the Passover(sacrifice), it is a requirement that the gentile male be circumcised, not so for a gentile woman, just to be clear.

Is a gentile required to eat the Passover, well that depends, if a gentile wants to have a covenant relationship with God, they are required to obey the covenant regulations. Thus gentiles who are not in covenant with God, cannot be responsible to keep a covenant they never accepted. Unlike a Jew, who is born into covenant.

 

[Yahudim]

When the OP questioned, "Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?", I attempted to explain the situation. I guess I should have given the short answer: If the believing Goyim were promised a front row seat at Temple, why would settling for 'the back of the bus' be a good thing?

I am assuming this was the question you were asking me, when you said "what about Pesach?"

Yes, for a gentile male to partake of the Passover(sacrifice), it is a requirement that the gentile male be circumcised, not so for a gentile woman, just to be clear.

Is a gentile required to eat the Passover, well that depends, if a gentile wants to have a covenant relationship with God, they are required to obey the covenant regulations. Thus gentiles who are not in covenant with God, cannot be responsible to keep a covenant they never accepted. Unlike a Jew, who is born into covenant.

 

[daq]

When the OP questioned, "Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?", I attempted to explain the situation. I guess I should have given the short answer: If the believing Goyim were promised a front row seat at Temple, why would settling for 'the back of the bus' be a good thing?

Apart from the High Priest there is only one creature allowed inside the Holiest Oracle and those creatures are of olive wood overlaid with hammered pure gold having been tried in the fire. Perhaps this is why Yeshua counsels the Laodicean congregation to purchase from him gold having been tried in the fire.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I am assuming this was the question you were asking me, when you said "what about Pesach?"

Yes, for a gentile male to partake of the Passover(sacrifice), it is a requirement that the gentile male be circumcised, not so for a gentile woman, just to be clear.

Is a gentile required to eat the Passover, well that depends, if a gentile wants to have a covenant relationship with God, they are required to obey the covenant regulations. Thus gentiles who are not in covenant with God, cannot be responsible to keep a covenant they never accepted. Unlike a Jew, who is born into covenant.

What about Gentiles who didn't get circumcised, become as a native born? Did they not receive the 'blessing' of salvation? The Cornelius', the Titus'..,

Is it a must that Gentiles be circumcised?

 

[visionary]

What about Gentiles who didn't get circumcised, become as a native born? Did they not receive the 'blessing' of salvation? The Cornelius', the Titus'..,

Is it a must that Gentiles be circumcised?

Can't find anywhere in scripture where the Gentiles are not guided into the covenant relationship which includes circumcision for Passover.

 

[annier]

You forget the Nazarite vow chaver. There was always a way. But this exceeds the OP. You should look around. There is a Temple thread out there somewhere. And if not, you have full posting privileges. Take this wherever you want this to go. I'll help as I am able.

Jewish encyclopedia.....
Women and slaves, who did not have full rights before the religious law, could take the Nazarite vow, but only with the consent of their husbands or owners, while the vow was not valid among the heathen (Naz. iv. 1-5, ix. 1, et passim).
However, concerning partaking of passover, and the nazarite. The Nazarite would not have kept the seder of tradition. They did not drink wine........

 

[etZion]

When the OP questioned, "Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?", I attempted to explain the situation. I guess I should have given the short answer: If the believing Goyim were promised a front row seat at Temple, why would settling for 'the back of the bus' be a good thing?

Lol, exactly.

 

[etZion]

What about Gentiles who didn't get circumcised, become as a native born? Did they not receive the 'blessing' of salvation? The Cornelius', the Titus'..,

Who said anything about salvation, was the salvation of Jews based on circumcision, thus no women could be saved? No neither Jews or Gentiles are saved by circumcision. Are men saved differently than women?

Is it a must that Gentiles be circumcised?

Must for what? Obedience? Salvation?

If obedience to the covenant, yes and no, and woman cannot be circumcised and thus female gentiles are not required to get circumcised to eat the Passover or to keep the command, but a male gentile is.