Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

[HannibalFlavius]

So they say, and to each his own, but I say that the entire volume of the Book is written to the All Israel of the Great King, blessed be He.

Behold, the volume of the book is written of me.

Didn't David say that?

 

[daq]

Behold, the volume of the book is written of me.

Didn't David say that?

Yes, it is written in Psalm 40 and quoted (Septuagint) in Hebrews:

Body of Yeshua Mowshiya` foretold:

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch [Tsemach].
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 6:12-13 KJV
12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
13. Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV (Psalm 40)
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared [GSN#2675 "fitted-framed"] me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come ( in the volume of the book it is written of me, ) to do thy will, O God.

Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Hence the image file of the Ezekiel Temple Body of Messiah in my first reply.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Yes, it is written in Psalm 40 and quoted (Septuagint) in Hebrews:

Body of Yeshua Mowshiya` foretold:

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch [Tsemach].
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 6:12-13 KJV
12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
13. Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV (Psalm 40)
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared [GSN#2675 "fitted-framed"] me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come ( in the volume of the book it is written of me, ) to do thy will, O God.

Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Hence the image file of the Ezekiel Temple Body of Messiah in my first reply.

So you don't believe in a literal Messianic Age?

 

[daq]

So you don't believe in a literal Messianic Age?

I suppose it all depends on your definition of literal.
And again did you not say that Hebrews was written specifically to the Jewish people?

Hebrews 12:18-29 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. ( For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, [Zion] and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, ["neos-new Mediator of the Covenant"] and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

It is Spirit which cannot be moved. The physical is temporary, waxing old, dying, and decaying. I suspect that what you deem to be "literal" concerns a completely different concept from what I deem to be "literal".

In addition how many aionos-ages are there in the following passages?

Matthew 12:32 RSV
32. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 20:34-36 RSV
34. And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage;
35. but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36. for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

So there be two ages in the lifespan of a man and the first age of the man has four seasons, like a full year, with a summer harvest at the consummation thereof.

 

[etZion]

If the Temple was still present and as a non Jew you are washed in His blood and co-heirs is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?

First of all, the closer to the Lord one could be is always a lovely thing. Anyone could appreciate as close as they can get, but this misses the point.

The Court of the Gentiles only existed in the first century Temple and was spawned out of a anti-gentile sentiment. We see this anti-gentile sentiment all through the Apostolic Writings, one very clear and specific note is in Acts 10, where gentiles were considered unclean, the purpose then, was to separate the 'dirty' gentiles from the 'clean' Jews, so the gentiles would not pollute the Temple or the Jews, but it is false to begin with. Simply a form of racism, much like anti-semitism.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

First of all, the closer to the Lord one could be is always a lovely thing. Anyone could appreciate as close as they can get, but this misses the point.

The Court of the Gentiles only existed in the first century Temple and was spawned out of a anti-gentile sentiment. We see this anti-gentile sentiment all through the Apostolic Writings, one very clear and specific note is in Acts 10, where gentiles were considered unclean, the purpose then, was to separate the 'dirty' gentiles from the 'clean' Jews, so the gentiles would not pollute the Temple or the Jews, but it is false to begin with. Simply a form of racism, much like anti-semitism.

What about Pesach?

 

[etZion]

What about Pesach?

What about it?

 

[annier]

First of all, the closer to the Lord one could be is always a lovely thing. Anyone could appreciate as close as they can get, but this misses the point.

The Court of the Gentiles only existed in the first century Temple and was spawned out of a anti-gentile sentiment.

Perhaps it was spawned out of the restricting of all but the priests, to come any closer than the wall in the middle of the courtyard. The wall in the middle separated between the hallowed place for the priests, and that for the people (which were Jews).

We see this anti-gentile sentiment all through the Apostolic Writings, one very clear and specific note is in Acts 10, where gentiles were considered unclean, the purpose then, was to separate the 'dirty' gentiles from the 'clean' Jews, so the gentiles would not pollute the Temple or the Jews, but it is false to begin with. Simply a form of racism, much like anti-semitism.

We also see this with the priesthood.
Joh. 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

The notion of defiling the temple, and only approaching so far, was true of Jews themselves, as common people. They were not allowed to enter God's house. Only the priests. So I am not so sure it is as cut and dried as you see it. The common people were strangers in God's house.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Marc,

Glad you brought it up. Pesach I mean, because this is where it is plainly taught in Torah that the goyim are allowed to participate fully if they become circumcised. Obeying Torah was NEVER optional. Everyone within the borders of Israel and then Judea were required to follow its statutes. No exceptions.

Prior to the antiGoyim knee-jerk of our people (except in the case of nephilim) brought about in the wake of the Babylonina captivity and the Greek invasion, those wishing to draw near could simply draw near. There were limits, but no hoops. Certainly nothing in Torah. If they wished to actually participate in Temple and the sacrificial system, they needed to be circumcised first. OK, that's a hoop, but it isn't ours, its His. But the choice to join His covenant and to join Israel was the goy's and NOT the Jew's. EVER! The goyim learned as they went along, which is pretty much what the Jerusalem council was saying in Acts. The goyim were to be viewed as little children that needed their teachers, not as dogs or lepers.

The Master spoke on this very topic in Mat 23:
1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: “Here we have the intended audience. Very important to context because He addressed not just His followers, but ALL that gathered. History tells us that there was no shortage of goyim in Jerusalem and Judea in those days. So you cannot claim that He only intended this instruction for Jews...2 The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them. ...and this is one of the many places that He addresses the 'customs' instituted by the Jewish leadership....5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin broad and their tzitziyot long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’...then comes His instruction concerning these customs...8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted....the nature of this service is critical to understanding His message and the curse for ignoring this message is definitive and unambiguous...13 “But woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. 14 [a]...above, Y'shua gives example of the nature of their offence. Below He deliniates the results of their teachings and their actions...15 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!


Did you get that? In Torah, the children of Israel are given a ministry. It is to be priests to the goyim (excepting the nephilim, of course), but according to Him the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim" not only dropped the ball, they hid it! He states plainly that because of this behavior, they are only fit for the trash piles of the valley of Hinnom; where worms and fire consume rancid meat and trash and a stench rises continually. I cannot imagine stronger or more critical terms when considering the culture of the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim" of 1st century Judea.

Poor Sha'ul, was so misunderstood for all the hyperbole he used in his method of teaching. All he was trying to get across was this: If you don't circumcise your heart to the Lord, a circumcision of the flesh would be worthless. He would be able to see their heart sooner than anyone could see their junk. He made the same point about Jews too. But he added that this in no way diminished the Torah command. His exact words were, "God forbid!" When asked directly Sha'ul denied he EVER taught against Torah.

So here we arrive at the 'custom' of the court of the goyim (an innovation of the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim"). Is it a good place to be? Depends on Who you ask, know what I mean?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hi Marc,

Glad you brought it up. Pesach I mean, because this is where it is plainly taught in Torah that the goyim are allowed to participate fully if they become circumcised. Obeying Torah was NEVER optional. Everyone within the borders of Israel and then Judea were required to follow its statutes. No exceptions.

Prior to the antiGoyim knee-jerk of our people (except in the case of nephilim) brought about in the wake of the Babylonina captivity and the Greek invasion, those wishing to draw near could simply draw near. There were limits, but no hoops. Certainly nothing in Torah. If they wished to actually participate in Temple and the sacrificial system, they needed to be circumcised first. OK, that's a hoop, but it isn't ours, its His. But the choice to join His covenant and to join Israel was the goy's and NOT the Jew's. EVER! The goyim learned as they went along, which is pretty much what the Jerusalem council was saying in Acts. The goyim were to be viewed as little children that needed their teachers, not as dogs or lepers.

The Master spoke on this very topic in Mat 23:
1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: “Here we have the intended audience. Very important to context because He addressed not just His followers, but ALL that gathered. History tells us that there was no shortage of goyim in Jerusalem and Judea in those days. So you cannot claim that He only intended this instruction for Jews...2 The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them. ...and this is one of the many places that He addresses the 'customs' instituted by the Jewish leadership....5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin broad and their tzitziyot long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’...then comes His instruction concerning these customs...8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted....the nature of this service is critical to understanding His message and the curse for ignoring this message is definitive and unambiguous...13 “But woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. 14 [a]...above, Y'shua gives example of the nature of their offence. Below He deliniates the results of their teachings and their actions...15 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!


Did you get that? In Torah, the children of Israel are given a ministry. It is to be priests to the goyim (excepting the nephilim, of course), but according to Him the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim" not only dropped the ball, they hid it! He states plainly that because of this behavior, they are only fit for the trash piles of the valley of Hinnom; where worms and fire consume rancid meat and trash and a stench rises continually. I cannot imagine stronger or more critical terms when considering the culture of the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim" of 1st century Judea.

Poor Sha'ul, was so misunderstood for all the hyperbole he used in his method of teaching. All he was trying to get across was this: If you don't circumcise your heart to the Lord, a circumcision of the flesh would be worthless. He would be able to see their heart sooner than anyone could see their junk. He made the same point about Jews too. But he added that this in no way diminished the Torah command. His exact words were, "God forbid!" When asked directly Sha'ul denied he EVER taught against Torah.

So here we arrive at the 'custom' of the court of the goyim (an innovation of the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim"). Is it a good place to be? Depends on Who you ask, know what I mean?

Of course non Jews could participate fully if they become circumcised but is it a requirement to eat the Passover for a non Jew? No it's not.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Annier,

Perhaps? Sis, I am surprised at you. Your responses are generally well founded in both scripture and history. This seem more like equivocation ("to call by the same name") or a simple failure to research it at all. Either case is unlike you.

The wall you speak of that separates the inner and outer courts for the separation of the Cohen from the people during the Temple service is completely different from the "wall of separation" that was being addressed in this thread; both in purpose and placement.

Do you deny that there was a wall constructed after the Maccabean revolt to segregate the Greeks (goyim) from the rest? Sorry Sis, if this is your supposition. This 'perhaps' really flies in the face of the historical and scriptural record, making the rest of your post somewhat irrelevant.

If instead you are implying that this wall was patterned after the wall of the inner court, it would only be true within the disciplines of architecture and construction; certainly not applicable in the case of purpose. The purpose of the inner wall was to reflect the configuration and nature of the Temple in heaven. The purpose of the "wall of separation" was political in origin and entirely an invention of man. So they are literally worlds apart.

Almost everyone agrees (including Jewish authorities and historians) that this wall was a direct result of the Greek invasion and the Maccabean revolt. It was constructed for the express purpose of limiting Greek spies from mingling with the Jewish people at Temple. That was because the Temple also served as the community meeting place where politics, strategy and tactics were openly discussed among the people. Honestly, I have no idea how you could possibly equate or even compare the two.

As always, My Best in Him,
Phillip

Perhaps it was spawned out of the restricting of all but the priests, to come any closer than the wall in the middle of the courtyard. The wall in the middle separated between the hallowed place for the priests, and that for the people (which were Jews).

*snip*​

 

[Yahudim]

No Marc, of course not. But it is THEIR choice, not yours!

BTW, your one-liner is entirely inadequate to the five paragraphs and fifteen verses of direct quotes from Messiah. Is this a side step? Sure seems that way. You asked a question and don't respond to the answers you don't like. That's not nice. But it is a qualification to run for political office!

One of the problems I have had with your premise from the very beginning is that it is a false choice based on a false premise. The assumption that the Court of the Goyim, created by the "Wall of Separation" is even a legitimate choice is flawed, especially in light of what is promised in Torah. Especially in light of the fact that separating seeking goyim from Torah and Temple is a practice condemned by Messiah (see the red text in the post above).

So who should I believe Marc; Him or you? Because you are promoting different choices from His. On the face of it, yours seems like an anti-Torah teaching to me.

Of course non Jews could participate fully if they become circumcised but is it a requirement to eat the Passover for a non Jew? No it's not.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Hi Marc,

Glad you brought it up. Pesach I mean, because this is where it is plainly taught in Torah that the goyim are allowed to participate fully if they become circumcised. Obeying Torah was NEVER optional. Everyone within the borders of Israel and then Judea were required to follow its statutes. No exceptions.

Prior to the antiGoyim knee-jerk of our people (except in the case of nephilim) brought about in the wake of the Babylonina captivity and the Greek invasion, those wishing to draw near could simply draw near. There were limits, but no hoops. Certainly nothing in Torah. If they wished to actually participate in Temple and the sacrificial system, they needed to be circumcised first. OK, that's a hoop, but it isn't ours, its His. But the choice to join His covenant and to join Israel was the goy's and NOT the Jew's. EVER! The goyim learned as they went along, which is pretty much what the Jerusalem council was saying in Acts. The goyim were to be viewed as little children that needed their teachers, not as dogs or lepers.

The Master spoke on this very topic in Mat 23:
1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: “Here we have the intended audience. Very important to context because He addressed not just His followers, but ALL that gathered. History tells us that there was no shortage of goyim in Jerusalem and Judea in those days. So you cannot claim that He only intended this instruction for Jews...2 The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them. ...and this is one of the many places that He addresses the 'customs' instituted by the Jewish leadership....5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin broad and their tzitziyot long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’...then comes His instruction concerning these customs...8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted....the nature of this service is critical to understanding His message and the curse for ignoring this message is definitive and unambiguous...13 “But woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. 14 [a]...above, Y'shua gives example of the nature of their offence. Below He deliniates the results of their teachings and their actions...15 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom as you are!


Did you get that? In Torah, the children of Israel are given a ministry. It is to be priests to the goyim (excepting the nephilim, of course), but according to Him the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim" not only dropped the ball, they hid it! He states plainly that because of this behavior, they are only fit for the trash piles of the valley of Hinnom; where worms and fire consume rancid meat and trash and a stench rises continually. I cannot imagine stronger or more critical terms when considering the culture of the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim" of 1st century Judea.

Poor Sha'ul, was so misunderstood for all the hyperbole he used in his method of teaching. All he was trying to get across was this: If you don't circumcise your heart to the Lord, a circumcision of the flesh would be worthless. He would be able to see their heart sooner than anyone could see their junk. He made the same point about Jews too. But he added that this in no way diminished the Torah command. His exact words were, "God forbid!" When asked directly Sha'ul denied he EVER taught against Torah.

So here we arrive at the 'custom' of the court of the goyim (an innovation of the "hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim"). Is it a good place to be? Depends on Who you ask, know what I mean?

Excellent post!

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The wall you speak of that separates the inner and outer courts for the separation of the Cohen from the people during the Temple service is completely different from the "wall of separation" that was being addressed in this thread; both in purpose and placement.



As always, My Best in Him,
Phillip

This is really interesting to me.

Thanks for sharing, I am really going to have to look into it.

Sounds like a mission.

 

[annier]

Hi Annier,

Perhaps? Sis, I am surprised at you. Your responses are generally well founded in both scripture and history. This seem more like equivocation ("to call by the same name") or a simple failure to research it at all. Either case is unlike you.

The wall you speak of that separates the inner and outer courts for the separation of the Cohen from the people during the Temple service is completely different from the "wall of separation" that was being addressed in this thread; both in purpose and placement.

Do you deny that there was a wall constructed after the Maccabean revolt to segregate the Greeks (goyim) from the rest? Sorry Sis, if this is your supposition. This 'perhaps' really flies in the face of the historical and scriptural record, making the rest of your post somewhat irrelevant.

If instead you are implying that this wall was patterned after the wall of the inner court, it would only be true within the disciplines of architecture and construction; certainly not applicable in the case of purpose. The purpose of the inner wall was to reflect the configuration and nature of the Temple in heaven. The purpose of the "wall of separation" was political in origin and entirely an invention of man. So they are literally worlds apart.

Almost everyone agrees (including Jewish authorities and historians) that this wall was a direct result of the Greek invasion and the Maccabean revolt. It was constructed for the express purpose of limiting Greek spies from mingling with the Jewish people at Temple. That was because the Temple also served as the community meeting place where politics, strategy and tactics were openly discussed among the people. Honestly, I have no idea how you could possibly equate or even compare the two.

As always, My Best in Him,
Phillip

I compared the two because....It is the priests which enter into Gods house itself. They appeared before God as a representative agency for the people of Israel. So it does not matter where I am standing physically anyway. That was my point. No common Jew actually went into Gods house to appear before God except through the high priest. They were not allowed as strangers in that household. Even the priests daughter marrying a non Levite, could not eat of here fathers food, if she had a child by a non Levite. All this fuss is about nothing of any significance to a Gentile, IMO

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Ann and Shabbat Shalom,

Thanks for responding. I understand what you are saying; I just don't agree. Here is why.

My point was that before the Wall of Separation, before the court of the Goyim (an artificial construct reflecting the political influences of man exerted on the worship of the God of Israel), the Goyim seekers stood with the Jews in the outer courtyard (a division reflecting the actual Temple service in heaven and Our Father's vision of proper worship according to Torah). The common Jews (as you describe them) were meant to stand with the Goyim in the Outer Courtyard, that they might minister to them about Torah and according to the instructions of Torah.

This division and many other customs designed to keep the Goyim separated was something that your Messiah condemned. In no way was this division comparable to the function of the Cohen, for they ministered for both Jew and the Goy seeker that would draw near. Any Goy that would draw near and observe according to Torah was welcomed by our Creator.

Kings and Priests to the Goyim, remember?

BTW, the OP is posed in Temple times. If, as you say, "...it does not matter where I am standing physically anyway" may be true today. But in terms of the OP, that kinda flies in the face of the whole concept of coming to Jerusalem for the Moedim, bringing a sacrifice or of attending Temple service at all. Everyone had their place and was expected to be in it. That's my understanding.

Aleichem Shalom,
Phillip

I compared the two because....It is the priests which enter into Gods house itself. They appeared before God as a representative agency for the people of Israel. So it does not matter where I am standing physically anyway. That was my point. No common Jew actually went into Gods house to appear before God except through the high priest. They were not allowed as strangers in that household. Even the priests daughter marrying a non Levite, could not eat of here fathers food, if she had a child by a non Levite.

 

[Yahudim]

OK HannibalFlavius,

I thought I might help you along in your study of the difference between the Temple walls, of which I described. I would suggest that when Sha'ul described the Wall of Hostility in his letters, while using a real wall as a symbol, his intent was to describe the discrimination that was rampant against the Goyim. His goal was to heal the division represented by the physical barrier built in the Temple on Herod.

Court of the Gentiles by Edersheim (* Emphasis mine) It was the rule when entering the Temple to pass in by the right, and when leaving it to go out by the left hand. The great Court of the Gentiles, * which formed the lowest or outer enclosure of the Sanctuary, was paved with the finest variegated marble. We have adopted this name as in common use, though Relandus (Antiq. p. 78) rightly objects that the only term for it used in Jewish writings is the 'mountain of the house.' According to Jewish tradition, it formed a square of 750 feet. Its name is derived from the fact that it was open to all--Jews or Gentiles--provided they observed the prescribed rules of decorum and reverence. In this court tradition places eating and sleeping apartments for the Levites, and a synagogue. But, despite pharisaic punctilliousness, the noise, especially on the eve of the Passover, must have been most disturbing. For there the oxen, sheep, and doves selected as fit for sacrifices were sold as in a market; and here were those tables of the money-changers which the Lord overthrew when He drove from His Father's house them that bought and sold (Matthew 21:12; John 2:14). Within a short distance, in the court, a marble screen 4 1/2 feet high, and beautifully ornamented, bore Greek and Latin inscriptions, warning Gentiles not to proceed, on pain of death. One of those very tablets, bearing almost the same words as those given by Josephus, has been discovered in late excavations. It was because they thought Paul had infringed this order, that the infuriated multitude 'went about to kill him' (Acts 21:31). Beyond this enclosure a flight of fourteen steps, each 9 inches high, led up to a terrace 15 feet broad, called the 'Chel,' which bounded the inner wall of the Temple. We are now approaching the Sanctuary itself, which consisted, first, of three courts, each higher than the former, and, beyond them, of the Holy and Most Holy Places, with their outbuildings. Entering by the principal gate on the east we pass, first into the Court of the Women, thence into that of Israel, and from the latter into that of the Priests. This would have been, so to speak, the natural way of advancing. But there was a nearer road into the Court of the Priests. For both north and south, along the terrace, flights of steps led up to three gates (both north and south), which opened into the Court of the Priests, while a fourth gate (north and south) led into the middle of the Court of the Women. Thus there were nine gates opening from 'the Terrace' into the Sanctuary--the principal one from the east, and four north and south, of which one (north and south) also led into the Court of the Women, and the other three (north and south) into that of the Priests.

Hope this helps.

 

[annier]

Hi again tal,
Sabbath peace to you and thanks for the allowing a discussion.
I would disagree with you of course, this is no surprise.

My point was that before the Wall of Separation, before the court of the Goyim (an artificial construct reflecting the political influences of man exerted on the worship of the God of Israel), the Goyim seekers stood with the Jews in the outer courtyard (a division reflecting the actual Temple service in heaven and Our Father's vision of proper worship according to Torah). The common Jews (as you describe them) were meant to stand with the Goyim in the Outer Courtyard, that they might minister to them about Torah and according to the instructions of Torah.

First, I believe the above does not take into account the position of the uncircumcised in Israelite society. Often Gentiles were slaves in Israel and their wives and children were often the property of their owner, as homeborn slaves. They also were not citizens, and could own no land. The land was the inheritance of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Second, the reflection of the heavenly priesthood is within the household of God itself. The tribes which broke the covenant, were not Joined to the priesthood. The Levites alone were joined to Aaron and his sons. This is the reflection of the apostles being made a royal priesthood.Those joined to the faith, are the reality of the reflection. This is why Peter was so surprised at the Gentiles. They themselves actually were JOINED to the priesthood just as the Jew was joined.

Second
This division and many other customs designed to keep the Goyim separated was something that your Messiah condemned. In no way was this division comparable to the function of the Cohen, for they ministered for both Jew and the Goy seeker that would draw near. Any Goy that would draw near and observe according to Torah was welcomed by our Creator.

Any Gentile being circumcised was made as one born in the land and a citizen of Israel. They then had an anointed one (the high priest) to appear before God on his behalf. Just like a born Jew, circumcised the eighth day did.

Kings and Priests to the Goyim, remember?

BTW, the OP is posed in Temple times. If, as you say, "...it does not matter where I am standing physically anyway" may be true today. But in terms of the OP, that kinda flies in the face of the whole concept of coming to Jerusalem for the Moedim, bringing a sacrifice or of attending Temple service at all. Everyone had their place and was expected to be in it. That's my understanding.

Aleichem Shalom,
Phillip

Yes, they did have their own place. Jews did not have a place in the temple ministry, of the priesthood. And the apostles did not bring Gentiles beyond the court of the Gentiles. So, I would disagree that our Lord condemned that Gentiles were not brought into that part of the temple.
Ac 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Ac 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

Paul completely denied the charges they made against him in this. He did not bring a Gentile into the temple with him.

I think many are reading the scripture through a Pharisaical mindset. The Pharisees were attempting to make something of themselves in a similar fashion as the priests. The priests garments were for Glory and beauty, they were holy Garments. The Pharisees in imitation of that concept made their Robes long, phylacteries large. To be "seen of men" by their garments. Performing of rituals, again in imitation of the priests. They were of the mind that they were able to "transfer" temple rituals to their homes, as though they had transferred it's holiness with the rituals. In fact, after the temple was destroyed, they tansferred many of the temple rituals and service (liturgy) to the synagogue. Liturgy that the law says is for the Levitical priests to perform. Did they transfer, liturgy to the synagogue? Or did they transfer the service to themselves? It seems they think they did both. Does it not follow then, that they think they have transferred holiness to themselves? Holiness which belongs to the Levites, and Gods holy place?
So, I am not surprised really that those which are trained in rabbinic thought would think such things at all. Nor say such things at all.

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom Annie and Blessings to you in His Holy Name chaverah,

I am pleased to learn that we agree on almost as much as we disagree! Perhaps more. Certainly more than I thought. Progress is made. I also thank you for a good discussion.

Hi again tal,
Sabbath peace to you and thanks for the allowing a discussion.
I would disagree with you of course, this is no surprise.

*snip*​

I have read your post thoroughly and I find that you have made more than a few good points. And yes, you have surprised me. However, the reason that I abbreviated this discussion here is because I feel that yours and my responses have probably exceeded the OP. Clearly Marc's question has a few presuppositions that we have gone well beyond. I also think that some of what you posted here deserve a little more latitude than the scope of this OP. Imagine if you will for example, a thread on biblical slavery! That'll have 'em coming out of the woodwork!

What I would ask of you (and this give you the advantage) is that you craft an OP that deals with these subjects of slavery in real life versus Torah requirements or whatever. We will need to include all levels of the Goyim/Jew social dynamic too. Could be kinda tricky putting this together.

Perhaps you might consider another on the progressive changes in the Cohen>P'rushim>Rabbinate chain of perceived and actual responsibilities. History is fun! You may make these threads as narrow or broad a question as you feel adequate to our purposes.

In any event, I see two very exciting threads in our future if you are willing. Let me know what you think. If you would like to share some ideas before going forward, PM me and I will help any way I can. Thanks again.

Time for some sleep. I have a full day of lazy reading and peaceful worship before me. Not to mention eating. Can't forget the eating!

May He visit you in shalom as you sleep,
Phillip

 

[annier]

Shalom Annie and Blessings to you in His Holy Name chaverah,

I am pleased to learn that we agree on almost as much as we disagree! Perhaps more. Certainly more than I thought. Progress is made. I also thank you for a good discussion.


I have read your post thoroughly and I find that you have made more than a few good points. And yes, you have surprised me. However, the reason that I abbreviated this discussion here is because I feel that yours and my responses have probably exceeded the OP. Clearly Marc's question has a few presuppositions that we have gone well beyond. I also think that some of what you posted here deserve a little more latitude than the scope of this OP. Imagine if you will for example, a thread on biblical slavery! That'll have 'em coming out of the woodwork!

What I would ask of you (and this give you the advantage) is that you craft an OP that deals with these subjects of slavery in real life versus Torah requirements or whatever. We will need to include all levels of the Goyim/Jew social dynamic too. Could be kinda tricky putting this together.

Perhaps you might consider another on the progressive changes in the Cohen>P'rushim>Rabbinate chain of perceived and actual responsibilities. History is fun! You may make these threads as narrow or broad a question as you feel adequate to our purposes.

In any event, I see two very exciting threads in our future if you are willing. Let me know what you think. If you would like to share some ideas before going forward, PM me and I will help any way I can. Thanks again.

Time for some sleep. I have a full day of lazy reading and peaceful worship before me. Not to mention eating. Can't forget the eating!

May He visit you in shalom as you sleep,
Phillip

Thank you Tal. And you are correct, we have exceeded Marc's questions. Sorry Marc .
I had been excitedly watching the thread here about adding a formal debate forum (not so much for me, not knowledgeable enough) or a discussion forum (would be for me) to allow broader discussion. It seems to have fizzled though.
So yes, I will PM you.
Thanks Tal. And sorry Marc for going beyond what you intended.