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What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

Elder 111

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You're mixing apples with oranges. The Law came much later.

The Law was given long after the flood.

Why were the prohibitions given? So Israel would not be like the nations around them. Nations around them accepted all the sins forbidden to the Jews in the Law. Just read all the things condemned in Leviticus 18, and you will see that what Israel was commanded not to do by God were seen as being normal in the other lands.
Leviticus 18:1-5

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them:
‘I am the Lord your God. You must not do as they do in Egypt,
where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the
land of Canaan
, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their
practices.
You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my
decrees. I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and laws,
for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

If the laws were not known explain why two difference nations admitted to doing wrong for taking Sarah when they saw that she was Abraham's wife?
Why did God charge the people of Noah's time with evil if they did not know any better? You want us all to believe that all the world was in total ignorance of righteousness before Sinai? So how did Enoch know? Or Noah?
 
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Elder 111

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The law of what constitutes sin remains. It has been DEFINED by the Law for all to know. If the Law remained? People would not simply be told that they sin and need a savior. They would be stoned to death in many cases. God did not change what constitutes sin. He simply changed the consequences of certain sins that were once included in the Law.
The breaking of Ten Commandments constitute sin. By definition you are saying it still is enforced upon us as children of God.
 
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GenemZ

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I accept that biblical position. Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


Please, read the introduction to Romans 7. Obviously, you have not.


Romans 12:1-6

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law
—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married
woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies
she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an
adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her
husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she
is not an adulteress.
4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through
the body of Christ,
so that you may belong to another, to him who
has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the
law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive,
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way
of the written code.


Have you ever carefully read the introduction to that chapter you snipped your verse from? Yes, the Law is holy. But, it was to be the means to bring men to Christ by making them aware that they are sinners, not take the place of Christ once they get there!

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have
died to the law
through the body of Christ,



6 But now we are released from the law,
having died to that which held us captive,
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.



Stop being robbed of your allotted time given you by God to grow in grace and truth to glorify Christ by walking in the Spirit and growing in the truth.


Ephesians 5:15-17 Walk in Wisdom

So be very careful how you live. Do not live
like people who aren’t wise. Live like people
who are wise,
redeeming the time,because
the days are
evil. So then do not be foolish,
but understand
what the will of the Lord is.


Read that? You have no excuse for failing to see that what you have been thinking is not correct. From the very chapter you used to justify your erroneous stand, it reveals just the opposite of what you wish it to mean. You have been wrong. We all have been at times.

So...You are still alive? God has not struck you dead? lol! Why? God is merciful. God has granted you time to find out what His will is for your life. Redeem the time you have left for the good.
 
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GenemZ

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.



Everyone.. Please read carefully the following passage.

Romans 12:1-6

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law
—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married
woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies
she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an
adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her
husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she
is not an adulteress.

4
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through

the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who
has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the
law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held
us captive,
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the
old way
of the written code.





.
 
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GenemZ

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The breaking of Ten Commandments constitute sin. By definition you are saying it still is enforced upon us as children of God.


According to the Sabbath regulations? Why are you permitted to use your computer on the Sabbath?
 
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GenemZ

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If the laws were not known explain why two difference nations admitted to doing wrong for taking Sarah when they saw that she was Abraham's wife?
Why did God charge the people of Noah's time with evil if they did not know any better? You want us all to believe that all the world was in total ignorance of righteousness before Sinai? So how did Enoch know? Or Noah?


Interesting that you should cite them for making your point.. Both Abraham and Noah were never commanded to keep the Sabbath.
 
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MoreCoffee

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A Baptist pastor (now deceased) writes:
That the Sabbath of the Decalogue was partly moral and partly ceremonial, or positive, in its nature has been the doctrine of the church as taught by its best theologians in all ages. Take a few examples out of scores that could be given. Watson's Theological Institutes, the great Methodist standard, says: "But as the command is partly positive and partly moral, it may have circumstances which are capable of being altered in perfect obedience with the moral principles on which it rests." Vol. II, page 511. So Scott's Commentary on Ex. 20:8-10 says: "The separation of a portion of our time to the immediate service of God is doubtless of moral obligation.... But the exact proportion, as well as the particular day, may be considered as a positive institution."

The moral basis of the Sabbath is readily manifest. That man should devote some part of his time to the special service and worship of God is reasonable, and we would naturally expect that the Lord would, in some way, designate such time, just as he did do in the Sabbath precept.

Experience proves that man's physical nature requires a day of rest about as often as one in seven. Many experiments have been tried and careful observations made, all showing that both men and beasts will accomplish more work in a given time, do it in a better manner and preserve better health by resting every seventh day than they will by laboring continuously. This is the testimony of business men and of eminent physicians. Hence the Sabbath rest had its foundation in nature itself. The mind also requires a day of rest as regularly as the body. Constant thought and mental application is ruinous to the mind. This has been proved in the case of students, lawyers, business men, etc. Socially and religiously, the weekly rest day is of the utmost importance to man's highest good. All other means combined can hardly equal the observance of the Lord's day for the purpose.

Then as to the influence of the church and its power for good, its hold upon its own members and upon community, its opportunity to teach and preach the gospel, the regular weekly rest day is its strong hold as all well know. Hence, if ever a law of God had a moral basis, the Sabbath commandment has. "The Sabbath was made for man" because he needed it physically, mentally, socially, morally and religiously. Mr. Gladstone say: "Sunday is a necessity for the retention of man's mind and of a man's frame in a condition to discharge his duties."

All experience shows that a Sabbathless community is a godless, immoral, and, generally, a thriftless community. Hence he is an enemy of society and of religion who would break down the restraints of such a weekly rest in the community. So we say that the Sabbath law rested upon a moral basis in providing a weekly Sabbath for the nation of Israel.​
 
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MoreCoffee

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The same Baptist Pastor continues to comment on the Sabbath thus:
The Ceremonial Side of the Sabbath

But when we come to the definite day, which it shall be, nature does not indicate that. All the benefits above mentioned would be secured by keeping one day as well as another. There would not be a particle of difference whichever day was selected. Suppose that all the churches would change in one week and keep Saturday instead of Sunday, what practical difference would it make? None at all. Physical rest, mental rest, social and religious privileges, a quiet day, - all that can be secured by one day can by another, so far as the day is concerned. But to secure the greatest good from the day, all should rest the same day. Where this is not done confusion and evil follows. Ex. 20:8-11.

God has marked no difference in the nature of days in themselves. All nature goes right on just the same every day alike. We see nothing in one day of the week which differs from another, and there is no difference. No day is holy in and of itself and by its own nature. The learned Dr. Edwards says: "No identical period of duration is, in itself, intrinsically holy." Sabbath Manual, page 92. In every case God had to make the day holy by a special appointment. The same appointment of some other day would have made it just as holy.

Nor does nature indicate clearly just the proportion of time to be used. Hence God's example of six days' work and the seventh of rest was doubtless given as a model to follow. To this the Lord pointed in giving the Sabbath law. Ex. 20. And this divine model all Christians now following in resting on the Lord's day after six day's work.

Another fact which Sabbatarians overlook is that God's act of resting on the day did not confer any holiness upon it. Gen. 2:3, says: "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because that in it HE HAD RESTED. So Ex. 20:11. He "rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." First, God rested on the day, but that did not make it holy. After that he blessed it but still it was not holy time. Third, he hallowed it, made it holy. So the day was not holy in itself nor did God's resting on it make it holy.

The Lord has made other days holy, days on which he never rested. The day of atonement was as holy as the weekly Sabbath. Thus: "It shall be an holy convocation unto you.... And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work.... It shall be unto you a Sabbath of rest." Lev. 23:27-32. So there were seven of these yearly holy days. Elder Smith, Adventist, says: "The word SABBATH means REST. That is the one sole idea it conveys, first, last, and all the way between, - cessation from labor, rest. Here were seven annual days on which there was to be an entire suspension of labor, Were these days Sabbath, or were they not? If they were not, can any one tell us why they were not?" What Was Nailed to the Cross, page 11.

So, then, according to the Bible and the arguments of the Adventists themselves, different days may become holy Sabbath days without the Lord's resting on them or even blessing them, for he did neither to these days. Further, a day which was once a holy Sabbath day, so holy that it was death to work on it, as in the case of the day of atonement, Lev. 23:27-32, may cease to be so and become a common working day. See Col. 2:16. Even Adventists do not keep these old holy days. So, then, holiness can be put upon a day, taken from it, or changed to another day. It is not necessarily a permanent, unchangeable affair. Let Sabbatarians meditate here awhile. More still: A day once appointed, and made a holy Sabbath day by God himself, may cease to be such and become even hateful to God. Thus: Isa. 1:13-14, "The new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; IT IS iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth; they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear THEM." All these holy days God himself had appointed, but see how he hates them now. Is it any proof, then, that a particular day is holy now because it was once holy? None whatever.

Notice also how many other things were made holy by God's appointment. Under the LAW we read of "the holy temple," "the holy hill," "the holy ark," "the holy instruments," "the holy vessels," "the holy water," "the holy perfume," "The holy altar," "the holy veil," "the holy linen coat," "the holy ointment," "the holy nation," "the holy Sabbath," etc. Those pertained to the worship and service of God in his HOLY TEMPLE, which was "only a shadow," "figure" or "type of the TRUE temple" - the "spiritual house" of Christ, "his body, the church." While they stood as TYPES they were "holy," and no longer. They had no inherent holiness, but were made holy by the command of God. Law and Gospel,page 43, by S.C. Adams.

Like all the above holy things, the seventh day had no holiness in itself. It had to be "made" so. Mark 2:27. But moral duties are not made. They exist in the very nature of things. For instance, it is morally wrong to murder. It would have been wrong even if God had given no command against it. But it never would have been wrong to work on the seventh day unless God had given a commandment to keep it. So, then, the sanctity of the day does not rest upon the nature of the day itself, but like a hundred other hallowed things, simply upon God's appointment, which may be altered any time at his will.

All must admit that this commandment does differ from those which are admitted to be wholly moral. No one could all his lifetime live in open violation of the commandments against idolatry, blasphemy, murder, adultery, stealing, etc., and yet have the least hope of heaven. Yet the most zealous Sabbatarian will admit that millions of devout Christians have lived holy lives who never kept the seventh day, but rested on Sunday instead. And Sunday-keepers will admit that those who keep Saturday instead of Sunday are Christian people. Now, certainly, one or the other of these classes does not keep the Sabbath commandment, if the essential thing is to keep the particular day. Would any seventh-day man recognize as a Christian any person who would every week violate the letter of any other commandment? No, nor would he excuse him on any plea of ignorance either. Yet they will freely admit that thousands right around them who do not keep the Sabbath commandment as they read it, are yet good people and Christians. So, they themselves being judges, this commandment does differ from the others in some way.​
 
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A Baptist pastor (now deceased) writes:
That the Sabbath of the Decalogue was partly moral and partly ceremonial, or positive, in its nature has been the doctrine of the church as taught by its best theologians in all ages. Take a few examples out of scores that could be given. Watson's Theological Institutes, the great Methodist standard, says: "But as the command is partly positive and partly moral, it may have circumstances which are capable of being altered in perfect obedience with the moral principles on which it rests." Vol. II, page 511. So Scott's Commentary on Ex. 20:8-10 says: "The separation of a portion of our time to the immediate service of God is doubtless of moral obligation.... But the exact proportion, as well as the particular day, may be considered as a positive institution."

The moral basis of the Sabbath is readily manifest. That man should devote some part of his time to the special service and worship of God is reasonable, and we would naturally expect that the Lord would, in some way, designate such time, just as he did do in the Sabbath precept.

Experience proves that man's physical nature requires a day of rest about as often as one in seven. Many experiments have been tried and careful observations made, all showing that both men and beasts will accomplish more work in a given time, do it in a better manner and preserve better health by resting every seventh day than they will by laboring continuously. This is the testimony of business men and of eminent physicians. Hence the Sabbath rest had its foundation in nature itself. The mind also requires a day of rest as regularly as the body. Constant thought and mental application is ruinous to the mind. This has been proved in the case of students, lawyers, business men, etc. Socially and religiously, the weekly rest day is of the utmost importance to man's highest good. All other means combined can hardly equal the observance of the Lord's day for the purpose.

Then as to the influence of the church and its power for good, its hold upon its own members and upon community, its opportunity to teach and preach the gospel, the regular weekly rest day is its strong hold as all well know. Hence, if ever a law of God had a moral basis, the Sabbath commandment has. "The Sabbath was made for man" because he needed it physically, mentally, socially, morally and religiously. Mr. Gladstone say: "Sunday is a necessity for the retention of man's mind and of a man's frame in a condition to discharge his duties."

All experience shows that a Sabbathless community is a godless, immoral, and, generally, a thriftless community. Hence he is an enemy of society and of religion who would break down the restraints of such a weekly rest in the community. So we say that the Sabbath law rested upon a moral basis in providing a weekly Sabbath for the nation of Israel.​
Interesting.

My question then becomes what constitutes rest? Is it the restraint of doing anything that could possibly be construed to be work? IOW words does it mean one can do nothing profitable? Say I find gardening very relaxing. Is pulling a weed work? The Jews accused Jesus' disciples of doing work for picking grain. Does this mean I must eat cold food prepared the day before? I think one can get what I'm driving at.

Now I wish to ask if eating other than at home isn't sin causing another to labor on their behalf? They even pay them for this thus violating the Sabbath.
 
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Elder 111

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Please, read the introduction to Romans 7. Obviously, you have not.


Romans 12:1-6

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law
—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married
woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies
she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an
adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her
husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she
is not an adulteress.
4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through
the body of Christ,
so that you may belong to another, to him who
has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the
law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive,
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way
of the written code.


I have highlighted the same passage in red. Now I ask: are we are delivered from keeping the law or from the fruit of our sinful flesh? That is death. Are not to worship God only or are we delivered from the sin and therefore death for not placing God first in our lives? Are we suppose to feel ourselves free from obey the command not to commit adultery or are we free from death in Christ after we have committed adultery and receives forgiveness?
My statement is that we are delivered from the penalty of breaking the law, that is death. We are delivered from the weakness of the flesh, that is sin, to live in the strength of Christ which gives us victorious living over fleshly lust.
Have you ever carefully read the introduction to that chapter you snipped your verse from? Yes, the Law is holy. But, it was to be the means to bring men to Christ by making them aware that they are sinners, not take the place of Christ once they get there!
I never said the law was to take the place of Christ. That is wickedness to the highest degree. It must be stopped! I keep the Ten commandments because I am saved not to be saved!

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have
died to the law
through the body of Christ,
6 But now we are released from the law,
having died to that which held us captive,
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Stop being robbed of your allotted time given you by God to grow in grace and truth to glorify Christ by walking in the Spirit and growing in the truth.


Ephesians 5:15-17 Walk in Wisdom

So be very careful how you live. Do not live
like people who aren’t wise.
Live like people
who are wise,
redeeming the time,because
the days are
evil. So then do not be foolish,
but understand
what the will of the Lord is.


Read that? You have no excuse for failing to see that what you have been thinking is not correct. From the very chapter you used to justify your erroneous stand, it reveals just the opposite of what you wish it to mean. You have been wrong. We all have been at times.

So...You are still alive? God has not struck you dead? lol! Why? God is merciful. God has granted you time to find out what His will is for your life. Redeem the time you have left for the good.
Read the red. When you can tell me that as a Child of God living under the banner of Prince Emmanuel, that I can steal, lie and commit all manner of evil, then and only then can you also tell that God's holy and sanctified Ten commandments is not for me or all Christians to keep.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Interesting.

My question then becomes what constitutes rest? Is it the restraint of doing anything that could possibly be construed to be work? IOW does it mean one can do nothing profitable? Say I find gardening very relaxing. Is pulling a weed work? The Jews accused Jesus' disciples of doing work for picking grain. Does this mean I must eat cold food prepared the day before? I think one can get what I'm driving at.

Now I wish to ask if eating other than at home isn't sin causing another to labor on their behalf? They even pay them for this thus violating the Sabbath.

I think once we stray from the gut-feeling kind of definition of 'work' we land in legalism. The traditional perspective is that all one's 'worldly employments' are to cease except those that are works of necessity and mercy. The other thing to remember about what Jesus said on the Sabbath question is that man was not made for the Sabbath and that implies that whatever purpose the 'rest' serves it is a service for the benefit of man rather than a complicated legal system of does and dont's for religious purposes.
 
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[/B][/I]I have highlighted the same passage in red. Now I ask: are we are delivered from keeping the law or from the fruit of our sinful flesh? That is death. Are not to worship God only or are we delivered from the sin and therefore death for not placing God first in our lives? Are we suppose to feel ourselves free from obey the command not to commit adultery or are we free from death in Christ after we have committed adultery and receives forgiveness?
My statement is that we are delivered from the penalty of breaking the law, that is death. We are delivered from the weakness of the flesh, that is sin, to live in the strength of Christ which gives us victorious living over fleshly lust.[/SIZE][/INDENT]
I never said the law was to take the place of Christ. That is wickedness to the highest degree. It must be stopped! I keep the Ten commandments because I am saved not to be saved!


Read the red. When you can tell me that as a Child of God living under the banner of Prince Emmanuel, that I can steal, lie and commit all manner of evil, then and only then can you also tell that God's holy and sanctified Ten commandments is not for me or all Christians to keep.
The flesh isn't subject to the law and has received its final judgment - death. All flesh dies and returns to dust with out regard to its behavior. The flesh isn't ever redeemed. Both the flesh of the righteous and the wicked have the same end.

The flesh isn't what is reborn. Its the soul. You argue as if the flesh is redeemed and has life. The soul is what is redeemed and born again. Remember a verse that says the soul that sinneth it shall die. (Eze 18:4, 20.)

Now I want to ask you to explain if we're delivered from the penalty of the law why anyone should keep the law? After there is no penalty anymore so why not sin, it doesn't matter. While you're at it please tell what the difference is between that and the cheap grace talked about here in GT.

Please tell me where permission to sin is promoted and by whom.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Continuing from post #573 ...
What is a Ceremony?

Adventists claim that there was nothing ceremonial in the Decalogue or about the Sabbath. But let us consider what a 'ceremony' is. Webster says: "Ceremony. Outward rite; external form in religion." That is exactly what the observance of the Sabbath was in Jewish worship. Do not Adventists class the keeping of all the other holy days as ceremonial? Yes; but they were all "holy convocations." Lev. 23:2, like the seventh day. Read Elder Smith's own arguments on this point. he says: "Were these other days which were EXACTLY LIKE THAT, - days of rest and convocation, - were these days also Sabbaths, or were they not?" What Was Nailed to the Cross, page 11. Then he argues that they were all Sabbaths like the seventh day. Well, then if the keeping of these was a ceremony, and a part of the "ceremonial" law, then the same is true of the seventh day.

The observance of the Sabbath on a particular day was a ceremonial service, the very first and chief of all their "outward rites and external forms." Thus, Smith's Dictionary of the Bible,article, Law of Moses, under the term "Ceremonial Law," says: "(3). Holiness of Times. (a) The Sabbath. Ex. 20:8- 11. (b) The Sabbatical Year. (c) Year of Jubilee. (d) The Passover. (e) The Feast of Weeks. (f) Feast of Tabernacles. (g) Feast of Trumpets. (h) Day of Atonement." Thus the Sabbath stands at the head of all the ceremonial seasons. God himself so places it. Lev. 23:1-44. "These are my feasts: Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath." Then follow in order all the holy days of the year, the Sabbath standing first. It is arranged that way time and again, showing it is so designed. Again, Dr. Smith says: "The Sabbath was the keynote to a scale of Sabbatical observance consisting of itself, the seventh month, the seventh year, and the Year of Jubilee."

Adventists argue that the Decalogue covers all sins. The greater embraces the lesser, they say. The sixth command prohibits murder, the highest crime of the kind, and that embraces and so forbids all lesser sins of the kind, as anger, quarreling, malice, hatred, etc. Well, now, let them try that on the fourth command and they will hit a truth which ought to open their eyes, viz.: the weekly Sabbath, as chief and head of all holy seasons and ceremonials, was placed there to represent all that class in the Jewish law. Rev. Dr. Potts, Methodist, says: "The law under the Mosaic dispensation was formulated into nine moral precepts, with a Sabbath commandment added." The Lord's Day our Sabbath, page 10.​
 
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GenemZ

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The same reason that Jesus allowed His disciples to pick corn on the Sabbath!

OHHH! I see you are on a computer diet. Delicious.

You need to eat to stay alive. You do not need to post to stay alive. YOU BROKE THE SABBATH HERE A GOOD NUMBER OF TIMES! And, now you want to use a necessity for life as your excuse for breaking the Sabbath.

If we were really under the Law the moderators would order you to be stoned.

:groupray: You go to the left. I'll go to the right. Johnny, you gather the stones. Elder 111 has broken the Sabbath day!
 
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