Tiktaalik ha ha

[dad]

The shifting sands of the stories of science are on display once again. Rather than some predicted slow evolution....we have something else! Ha ha.

" "It turns out that the size of the hind appendage was already large in fish and that a good chunk of the transition has already happened in fish before the origin of tetrapods," he said."

Tiktaalik fossils reveal how fish evolved into four-legged land animals | Science | The Guardian

 

[Queller]

The shifting sands of the stories of science are on display once again. Rather than some predicted slow evolution....we have something else! Ha ha.

" "It turns out that the size of the hind appendage was already large in fish and that a good chunk of the transition has already happened in fish before the origin of tetrapods," he said."

Tiktaalik fossils reveal how fish evolved into four-legged land animals | Science | The Guardian

So why do you believe this is a problem for the theory of evolution?

 

[dad]

So why do you believe this is a problem for the theory of evolution?

Well, the story that was something like this..


"Shubin had expected the hind fins and pelvis to be small in animals like Tiktaalik, with rear limbs becoming stronger and more prominent only as animals adapted to life on land."


same link


Yet now they need to claim the 'adaptation' was already there. Ha.

 

[Queller]

Well, the story that was something like this..

"Shubin had expected the hind fins and pelvis to be small in animals like Tiktaalik, with rear limbs becoming stronger and more prominent only as animals adapted to life on land."

same link

Yet now they need to claim the 'adaptation' was already there. Ha.

Maybe I need to be clearer. Why is refining the theory of evolution based on new evidence a problem for the theory of evolution?

 

[dad]

Maybe I need to be clearer. Why is refining the theory of evolution based on new evidence a problem for the theory of evolution?

I guess if being busted presents no problem, you can just change your story with no limits! Must be nice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How is it busted, dad?

You have not made a lick of sense yet.

 

[Loudmouth]

I guess if being busted presents no problem, you can just change your story with no limits! Must be nice.

Why wouldn't we go with the evolutionary history supported by the evidence? While Shubin may have had one expectation, the theory of evolution in no way requires that Tiktaalik have small rear fins.

 

[dad]

How is it busted, dad?

You have not made a lick of sense yet.

Well, If I say that a creature slowly adapted hind leg muscles or some such, so that, over millions of years it evolved into a land creature....one would expect that the equipment was not actually already there before it began!!?

 

[dad]

Why wouldn't we go with the evolutionary history supported by the evidence? While Shubin may have had one expectation, the theory of evolution in no way requires that Tiktaalik have small rear fins.

So what would you expect?

""Shubin had expected the hind fins and pelvis to be small in animals like Tiktaalik, with rear limbs becoming stronger and more prominent only as animals adapted to life on land."


What they had underwater fish races that required those things before?? Ha.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, If I say that a creature slowly adapted hind leg muscles or some such, so that, over millions of years it evolved into a land creature....one would expect that the equipment was not actually already there before it began!!?

Tiktaalik was not fully developed, it was more developed than first thought.

Again, where is the problem?

 

[Papias]

So when scientists discovered another isotope of nickel (62Ni) in addition to 58Ni, 60Ni, 61Ni, and 64Ni, dad though that atomic theory had been disproven, and so things actually were made only out of earth, air, fire and water?

Papias

 

[Queller]

I guess if being busted presents no problem, you can just change your story with no limits! Must be nice.

So Shubin was wrong about when hind fins began to develop into legs. how does that weaken or "bust" evolutionary theory?

 

[dad]

Tiktaalik was not fully developed, it was more developed than first thought.

Again, where is the problem?

"To give you a sense of how giant it is, the pelvis of this animal is the same size as the shoulder, so it's very clear from understanding these bones that the hind appendage was already being emphasised in the transition to creatures with limbs,"

So the pelvis was already here. No millions of years involved.

 

[dad]

So Shubin was wrong about when hind fins began to develop into legs. how does that weaken or "bust" evolutionary theory?

How would it work then, the huge pelvic stuff started to evolve millions of years early, knowing it would one day be needed!? Clever. You thought creationists invoked miracles??

 

[Loudmouth]

How would it work then, the huge pelvic stuff started to evolve millions of years early, knowing it would one day be needed!?

Why couldn't it use a proto-pelvis millions of years before becoming terrestrial?

You thought creationists invoked miracles??

We don't need to invoke miracles. We have the freaking fossil.

 

[Loudmouth]

So the pelvis was already here. No millions of years involved.

Why does a large pelvis in Tiktaalik rule out the possibility that it evolved in the ancestors of Tiktaalik over millions of years?

 

[Queller]

How would it work then, the huge pelvic stuff started to evolve millions of years early, knowing it would one day be needed!? Clever. You thought creationists invoked miracles??

Sigh... I forgot who I was talking to.

You do understand that the larger than expected girdle, joint, and fins were useful before tetrapods moved out of the water, right? I mean it says it right there IN THE ARTICLE:

The powerful fins could have propelled the beast in the water, but also helped it walk on riverbeds, or scramble around on mudflats.

Not to mention that the hind limbs are only ONE of the several transitions that tiktaalik represents. Again from right there in the article.

Its extraordinary blend of gills, scales, fins and lungs, combined with a movable neck, sturdy ribcage and crocodile-like head, placed Tiktaalik half way between fish and the earliest four-legged land animals.

 

[Loudmouth]

So what would you expect?

""Shubin had expected the hind fins and pelvis to be small in animals like Tiktaalik, with rear limbs becoming stronger and more prominent only as animals adapted to life on land."


What they had underwater fish races that required those things before?? Ha.

Expectations are not the same as predictions. The theory of evolution makes no predictions as to the speed of evolution for each and every characteristic. The theory only predicts that we should find fossils with a mixture of fish and tetrapod features, and that is EXACTLY what Tiktaalik has. This is another case of creationists saying evolution is false because there are no transitional fossils, and then trying to say that transitional fossils disprove evolution once they are found. It is rather pathetic.

 

[dad]

Why couldn't it use a proto-pelvis millions of years before becoming terrestrial?

Hey why couldn't we buy proto Elvis records thousands of years before he lived? Same sort of principle.

We don't need to invoke miracles. We have the freaking fossil.

A fossil that already had the stuff evos claimed took millions of years to get there. Chicken...meet egg. Cart, meet horse.

 

[dad]

Why does a large pelvis in Tiktaalik rule out the possibility that it evolved in the ancestors of Tiktaalik over millions of years?

Why stop there? Maybe the fish evolved a human brain, and wings, knowing they would change one day?