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Who has read the Book of Mormon?

RevelationTestament

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Yep. That's what I'm talking about.

The thing I find interesting is that the more the critics attempt to discredit the LDS Church the more I find how little the other denominations have to offer me. It's that adage that when you point a finger at someone you have four pointing right back at yourself.


:)

Well I was raised Presbyterian and Baptist. I feel God really responded to my Baptist baptism. I liked the way they did my Bible School. But the more I read the Bible the more I questioned the doctrine of the Trinity, which is why at the age of 12 I was ready to listen to missionaries from a church I had never heard of.
I went to a baptist church over the holidays, and enjoyed it - they had a good musical message. But now when I listen to the message, I think in my head, but yeah, Peter said this, and Jesus said that....
There is no return for me to traditional orthodoxy. It's time to return to original orthodoxy :)
 
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Moodshadow

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CFR. I'd like to see these "numerous" changes.

You see them each and every time you read the current edition. Someone mentioned earlier in this very thread that there are more than 3,000 of them. I'm not about to go and find and list them for you. If you're really that interested, be my guest; from my standpoint, there's just not that much interest any more.


No need. You pointed it out in your own post. I have underlined it for clarity. Do you need me to provide more examples? :)

Yes, please, because the one you think you've cited here isn't working for you, since it was (a) an unintentional misquote in the first place - the simple, accidental use of one word in place of another; (b) as I've mentioned twice already, since according to any English dictionary the two words "perfect" and "correct" are in fact synonymous, what I said comes nowhere near qualifying as an attempt on my part to change the meaning of what anyone said, period; and (c) let this record show that I am stating for the entirety of Christian Forums to see that it is not my intention or desire to change the meaning of anything anyone said, for the purpose of deception, misleading, or for any other reason.
 
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Ran77

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Well I was raised Presbyterian and Baptist. I feel God really responded to my Baptist baptism. I liked the way they did my Bible School. But the more I read the Bible the more I questioned the doctrine of the Trinity, which is why at the age of 12 I was ready to listen to missionaries from a church I had never heard of.
I went to a baptist church over the holidays, and enjoyed it - they had a good musical message. But now when I listen to the message, I think in my head, but yeah, Peter said this, and Jesus said that....
There is no return for me to traditional orthodoxy. It's time to return to original orthodoxy :)


:amen:


:clap:
 
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Ran77

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Yes, please, because the one you think you've cited here isn't working for you, since it was (a) an unintentional misquote in the first place - the simple, accidental use of one word in place of another; (b) as I've mentioned twice already, since according to any English dictionary the two words "perfect" and "correct" are in fact synonymous, what I said comes nowhere near qualifying as an attempt on my part to change the meaning of what anyone said, period; and (c) let this record show that I am stating for the entirety of Christian Forums to see that it is not my intention or desire to change the meaning of anything anyone said, for the purpose of deception, misleading, or for any other reason.


Then why not just stick with what Joseph stated? Why alter it at all? Because . . .


Correct means: to set or make true, accurate, or right; remove the errors or faults from.


Perfect means: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement.


There is a definately a difference between these two words. There is a fairly significant difference between something being accurate and something that is excellent beyond practical improvement.


I have asked for support of your claim of numerous changes and you have declined. Oddly enough, my requests to have that specific claim supported go unheaded. Or at least, the vast majority of the time it goes unheaded. If this claim has any veracity it should be easy enough to point them out.

However, that may be unfair on my part. I have looked into this topic and the sites critical of the LDS fail to mention that the overwhelming majority of these changes are punctuation. Since when has that become the litmus test for the truth of any statement? That's like when Hollywood claims that a movie was the best loved film of the year - a claim without any real significance.


:)
 
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RevelationTestament

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The big difference is that the so-called "changes" in the KJV and other versions is based on translation of the original Greek and Hebrew supported by increased knowledge, such as Qumran and DSS and other manuscript finds. Please show us any original language texts for the BOM or any other early LDS writing and current scholarship which support the changes? Anyone can access the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and verify translations for themselves. Can LDS members say the same?

Yes. The original printed BOM is available as well as the manuscript.
Most of the changes are additions or changes in punctuation.
The original manuscript was basically one long run on sentence - the scribes taking the dictation added no punctuation so the printer asked to use the KJV as a guide to punctuation and grammar - this is why KJV "errors" show up in the BOM. It is not because Joseph Smith wrotely copied the KJV, as is often claimed by critics, because He did not. Looking at the manuscript plainly proves this. The printer wrotely copied the KJV where the BOM quoted the OT - mostly Isaiah.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Yes. The original printed BOM is available as well as the manuscript.
Most of the changes are additions or changes in punctuation.
The original manuscript was basically one long run on sentence - the scribes taking the dictation added no punctuation so the printer asked to use the KJV as a guide to punctuation and grammar - this is why KJV "errors" show up in the BOM. It is not because Joseph Smith wrotely copied the KJV, as is often claimed by critics, because He did not. Looking at the manuscript plainly proves this. The printer wrotely copied the KJV where the BOM quoted the OT - mostly Isaiah.


Are you saying that "Reformed Egyptian" language sentence structure is typically one long run on sentence and that the specifice golden plates that Smith was translating from had long run on sentences to begin with?

If so, please provide your reference for "Reformed Egyptian" grammar structure.
 
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BigDaddy4

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The big difference is that the so-called "changes" in the KJV and other versions is based on translation of the original Greek and Hebrew supported by increased knowledge, such as Qumran and DSS and other manuscript finds. Please show us any original language texts for the BOM or any other early LDS writing and current scholarship which support the changes? Anyone can access the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and verify translations for themselves. Can LDS members say the same?

Exactly! :thumbsup:
 
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RevelationTestament

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Do Mormons believe in hell? Who goes there?

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.


85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;


25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;
 
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mmksparbud

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No, you're suppose to use 6-9. Haven't you read enough stuff from your fellow critics? Use the right verses. These refer to the great apostasy. Sorry kid. The message of salvation is the same as in the Bible. The Book of Mormon says grace through Christ. If that's different from the Bible then all of Christianity has messed up. Go back and read both. Christ said marriages wouldn't take place, he didn't say no one will be married. So God can break the bands of death but is powerless to make a marriage eternal? By your own belief you believe you will never have your wife as your wife, parents as parents, etc. That's not a heaven, that's a hell.

I prefer to believe what Christ said--Matt 22:29-30 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." This was dicussing the woman who had married 7 brothers--
You are free to believe what you want--but I'm not buying it.
And I did read the right scriptures--Kid--. And if you do not like the heaven that Christ has described, don't worry--He won't have anyone there who thinks His idea of heaven is hell.
 
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Norah63

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Always find it interesting that those on this earth who make a marriage covenant,
do not want it to be there in heaven. Is it the same with family ? What kind of love is that, I don't understand. I know you don't "get" married in heaven, we do that here.
What we do down here does make a difference, and that is important.
 
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Jake255

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Always find it interesting that those on this earth who make a marriage covenant,
do not want it to be there in heaven. Is it the same with family ? What kind of love is that, I don't understand. I know you don't "get" married in heaven, we do that here.
What we do down here does make a difference, and that is important.
That's the problem isn't it? We force our "wants" and "wishes" onto our doctrine and then call them God's Truth.

It doesn't matter if we want marriages to continue after physical death - it's that it's not True, it's not going to happen. Marriage is for HUMANS on earth, the purpose is to continue the human race on earth, to satisfy sexual desires, companionship - these kinds of things are for our natural physical bodies.

That's the part Mormon's don't get.
 
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Jake255

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Yep. That's what I'm talking about.

The thing I find interesting is that the more the critics attempt to discredit the LDS Church the more I find how little the other denominations have to offer me. It's that adage that when you point a finger at someone you have four pointing right back at yourself.


:)

What about what God has to offer? Is our relationship with God so shallow and misdirected (like Joseph Smith's was) that we must, must, must join a denomination and then use our own opinion and pick the lesser in error one?

Where does it say we must belong to a denomination and where does it say pick the one that has more to offer.

The more I chat with mormons the more I come to realize it's not about a relationship with Christ, it's about whose right and whose wrong - nothing but opinions, nothing of the truth.
 
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Norah63

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So when we marry, are we forcing on God our wants? Do you consider it a doctrine to marry? Where does love enter the soul and spirit? My love for the salvation that Jesus Christ paid for, came from Him and the Father through the Holy Spirit.
Love in families comes from what source? This world, the scriptures says, is without natural affection in the last days. Can we understand love apart from the Holy Spirit?
Lust and all that man can and does relate to love down here now is not even close to the real thing. That is why we have the comforter to reveal it to us.
Those in the body of Christ are not to bite and tear at one another, but be gentle kind and encouraging, even more as we see the day approaching.
If we have an ought against someone, go to that person, not the writings if they are not alive.
 
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Moodshadow

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Then why not just stick with what Joseph stated? Why alter it at all? Because . . . What part of "accidental" do you not understand? When I wrote that original post, I used the word "perfect" accidentally. It slipped out unintentionally. It was inadvertent on my part. I knew then and know now that it was not the word Smith used, and it was never my own intent to use the word "perfect" either, much less mislead anyone by my own accidental misuse of it. Why is it so critical to you to continue to beat this poor dead horse?

Correct means: to set or make true, accurate, or right; remove the errors or faults from.

Perfect means: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement.

There is a definately a difference between these two words. There is a fairly significant difference between something being accurate and something that is excellent beyond practical improvement.

Yes, there is definately [sic] a difference between the two words - mostly the way they are spelled. According to dictionary.com, they are 100% synonymous. If something is perfect, it is correct; if something is correct, it is perfect.

I have looked into this topic and the sites critical of the LDS fail to mention that the overwhelming majority of these changes are punctuation. Since when has that become the litmus test for the truth of any statement? That's like when Hollywood claims that a movie was the best loved film of the year - a claim without any real significance. :)

Punctuation. Really? Would you really like to get into the ones that were done for the sake of political correctness? The change from "white and delightsome" to "fair and delightsome," for example? We could get quite an interesting conversation going if you want, and I know there are other posters who would love to join in.
 
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Jake255

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So when we marry, are we forcing on God our wants? Do you consider it a doctrine to marry? Where does love enter the soul and spirit? My love for the salvation that Jesus Christ paid for, came from Him and the Father through the Holy Spirit.
Love in families comes from what source? This world, the scriptures says, is without natural affection in the last days. Can we understand love apart from the Holy Spirit?
Lust and all that man can and does relate to love down here now is not even close to the real thing. That is why we have the comforter to reveal it to us.
Those in the body of Christ are not to bite and tear at one another, but be gentle kind and encouraging, even more as we see the day approaching.
If we have an ought against someone, go to that person, not the writings if they are not alive.
I am speaking of after this life, not while we are on earth in physical bodies. God wants us to marry on earth, it is why he invented it, we are to populate the earth, people have sexual desires but these are all natural, physical acts - not happening in the spiritual realm outside of our natural bodies.

Are you not aware we are all one family? It will be even more so when this time on earth as we know it is done.

This doctrine is false, it doesn't exist, the Mormons made it up. In the temple, people can be married to dead people, it goes on and on.
 
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Phantasman

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These are statements JS made, please notice the bolded:
(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)


Lets take the first part, as it is what JS says (and not what others believes he means).

Corruption means to be tainted, probably with untruth. Seeing that verses have been either added or taken away (as in the end of Luke), that 1&2 Timothy and Titus has been almost proven written after Pauls death, and a time when any opposition to choice meant certain death and the opposing proof destroyed, doesn't give the Bible a strong leg to stand on. It's accepted because it's always been accepted. If it were the full truth, why isn't everyone Catholic? God has a way to show the seeker when he is free.

This really isn't about what "religion" is right. It's about finding truth in Christ. To me, the more I have to draw from, the better.
 
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LegacyJB

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I prefer to believe what Christ said--Matt 22:29-30 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." This was dicussing the woman who had married 7 brothers--
You are free to believe what you want--but I'm not buying it.
And I did read the right scriptures--Kid--. And if you do not like the heaven that Christ has described, don't worry--He won't have anyone there who thinks His idea of heaven is hell.

You're misunderstanding what is taught here. Jesus was not talking about all marriages, he was referring to that specific case. Such a marriage was called a Levitical Marriage. It was tradition. The lesson learned here is a traditional marriage will break at death because it's not bound by God. A marriage bound by God, however, will stand throughout the eternities. Like I said, a heaven with no family is a hell. I'm grateful for the knowledge that families can be together forever. How do you feel knowing you believe you will have zero claim on your children?
 
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LegacyJB

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That's the problem isn't it? We force our "wants" and "wishes" onto our doctrine and then call them God's Truth.

It doesn't matter if we want marriages to continue after physical death - it's that it's not True, it's not going to happen. Marriage is for HUMANS on earth, the purpose is to continue the human race on earth, to satisfy sexual desires, companionship - these kinds of things are for our natural physical bodies.

That's the part Mormon's don't get.

Let me see if I have this right: you love your family just enough to call them family here but you don't love them enough to where you want to spend the eternities with them?
 
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Phantasman

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Let me see if I have this right: you love your family just enough to call them family here but you don't love them enough to where you want to spend the eternities with them?

Jesus taught quite clearly that families would be divided. And that marriage is an earthly matter (the brothers who married the widow of their brothers). Physical blood likeness matters not. Spiritual oneness is everything.

The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father." -Thomas
 
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