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Do you ever ...

Resha Caner

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Don't you dismiss other's lives as trivial (to you at least)?

I'm sure I do, but it is never my intention. I have my moments when I stop to help (or listen) if it appears someone needs it, and I have my moments when I'm less than civil. But I don't think anyone takes it as a dismissal to do business at a store and then move on. I find it odd that I should be expected to converse with everyone who crosses my path. That in no way means I find their life trivial should we interact.

The ones I can play out usually go quite well...such is careful planning and all.

Quite well how? In that you rapidly escape the conversation? Control the conversation (and possibly control people as a result)? Manage to defend yourself?

We have disinterest as one motivator for how you converse. Are there others?

As for this one, it has gone close. Your general lack of interest in the thoughts/opinions of others has allowed you to deflect my assessment of you without much insult. Had I been wrong and you actually cared...your reply might've been less cordial.

So you tried to insult me? Interesting. An angered response is not the only way to show interest, however. Or at least that is my opinion. Is that the only way I can indicate interest in your thoughts, or are there other ways?
 
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Resha Caner

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As for me, I suspect, I lose interest in discussing it, in the first place.

Yet isn't that the center of most conversations here? So what keeps you engaged in these conversations?

That depends
a. on the particular god and
b. on how deeply I explore this god concept (usually it gets harder the more details of the theology behind it I take into account.

So which god concepts do you find it easiest to understand? Most difficult?
 
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Paradoxum

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What is wrong with it? Upon a second reading, "might" may have been a bit clumsy, but I believe it's still proper. IOW, the sentence could have been: The military power they bring to the conversation may decide the issue for you.

I didn't read 'might' to mean power, I read it as meaning 'maybe'. My bad.

You miss the point. I was poking at the underlying question: Does your opinion matter if it is not actionable?

If enough people can be convinced to agree it matters. Even if I'm the one who agrees with me, at least I can have a clean conscience on the matter. It matters to me whether I have moral opinions.
 
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Resha Caner

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It matters to me whether I have moral opinions.

Sure, I understand that. It just seemed your example was one of the more unlikely possibilities (that we'll meet intelligent alien life), so I'm trying to understand why it's important enough to you to spend time pondering it.

If enough people can be convinced to agree it matters.

It certainly makes civic relations easier.

Even if I'm the one who agrees with me, at least I can have a clean conscience on the matter.

OK. But if you're the only one with a particular view, does that make you wonder if you're just rationalizing?

Also, I'm curious, as I said above, if this connects to other issues for you.
 
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Paradoxum

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Sure, I understand that. It just seemed your example was one of the more unlikely possibilities (that we'll meet intelligent alien life), so I'm trying to understand why it's important enough to you to spend time pondering it.

It might not happen in my lifetime, but I don't consider it unlikely in the future.

The reason I think about it is to consider how we should think of humans. Another highly intelligent species with similar mental abilities gives us a comparison for thinking about ourselves.

One point might be that being homosapian isn't the thing of value. If we say killing someone is wrong because they human, that is either a verbal short-cut for a longer explanation of why murder is wrong, or it shows one is discriminatory and no better than a racist.

OK. But if you're the only one with a particular view, does that make you wonder if you're just rationalizing?

Also, I'm curious, as I said above, if this connects to other issues for you.

If I'm the only one with the view I might question myself sure.

One issue it connects to, which I'm guess you wont like, is abortion. I don't care if it is human because I don't think being merely human is the important quality for a right to life.
 
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Resha Caner

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The reason I think about it is to consider how we should think of humans.

I wondered if that was the case. As for the rest of your post, we've been there before. I think all you do is discriminate in a way that is different from me. With no way to ground those discriminations, we'll never agree.

So what is it you gain by thinking of intelligent aliens? What new facet does that bring to the discussion?
 
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quatona

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Yet isn't that the center of most conversations here? So what keeps you engaged in these conversations?
Huh? I responded to your statement how you deal with ideas you once had considered and finally put aside. I answered that I for one lose interest in discussing them, in the first place.
How do you figure that those very ideas that I have rejected and lost interest in discussing are the center of most discussions here? :confused:



So which god concepts do you find it easiest to understand? Most difficult?
I think the keyword used to be "fathom", not "understand". For example, I find it easy to fathom the almighty, "might makes right" invisible skydaddy concept easy to fathom. I guess the more anthropomorphic the easier.
Where you really lose me are god concepts that have "complicated theological a posteriori justifications for something that otherwise turned out to make no sense whatsoever" written all over them.
 
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Paradoxum

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I wondered if that was the case. As for the rest of your post, we've been there before. I think all you do is discriminate in a way that is different from me. With no way to ground those discriminations, we'll never agree.

How do I discriminate in another way?

I think we can agree because morals can be made more reasonable by thinking about them. It seems to me that saying we will never agree is admitting that you are wrong. Someone who thinks they are right wouldn't say that, unless they just can't be bothered to explain themselves at that time.

I have reasons for what I think on this issue... if you have no grounding for your opinion on this issue you are speaking for yourself. I don't mean that in a mean way, but I don't like you saying I am baselessly discriminating without an explanation of how. If you don't tell me how I can't reconsider or defend myself.

I think I've explained before why I think the pro-life position is based on (at least sometimes) unjust discrimination.

So what is it you gain by thinking of intelligent aliens? What new facet does that bring to the discussion?

I think most people would agree that aliens similar to humans (in mind) would have the right to life like humans. To kill them would be murder. Considering this brings our natural discriminatory thinking to light. If that is the case, the right to life isn't based on physical qualities (like race or species), but rather something else (likely mental). The question is then what this quality or qualities are.

To me it seems that morality (put simplistically) is about not violating beings, and helping beings. So I then ask in what way is a person violated by murder that a cow isn't. I guess you've heard my reasoning on this before?

As a side note; I think it makes sense to think killing beings like dolphins and other apes is murder.

:)
 
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Resha Caner

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I misunderstood you. I thought you meant you quickly lose interest in god-concept conversations.

I think the keyword used to be "fathom", not "understand". For example, I find it easy to fathom the almighty, "might makes right" invisible skydaddy concept easy to fathom. I guess the more anthropomorphic the easier.

Where you really lose me are god concepts that have "complicated theological a posteriori justifications for something that otherwise turned out to make no sense whatsoever" written all over them.

Well, this comes across to me as "I don't understand what doesn't make sense". That has a tautological flavor to it. I guess I was looking for an example.
 
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bhsmte

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I misunderstood you. I thought you meant you quickly lose interest in god-concept conversations.



Well, this comes across to me as "I don't understand what doesn't make sense". That has a tautological flavor to it. I guess I was looking for an example.

How about:

-a person who led a caring life and helping others, but does not believe in the christian God being doomed. But, the serial killer who accepts Jesus five minutes before he goes to the chair is saved?

-How about being able to dump all your sins on someone else at any time. Sort of takes away accountability of one's life.

-How about leaving man suffering on earth for at least 100,000 years before God decides to send his son to save everyone. And then, only exposing a small portion of the population to his word, which is required to believe in to avoid eternal torment?

I could go on and on, but there is so much of the christian story that does not strike one as being; fair, moral or making a lick of logic.
 
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Resha Caner

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How do I discriminate in another way?

I didn't mean "discriminate" as a bad word. If I were to say you have discriminating taste in clothing, it just means you are very particular about what clothes you wear. In this case you use intelligence as a discriminator for "right to life". I don't.

Further, I wasn't saying you haven't grounded your idea. Rather, we ground our positions in something different. You ground intelligence as a discriminator in your reason (my sarcastic reply would be that you ground intelligence in intelligence, which seems a bit circular to me). My discriminator is the spiritual, which you will likely tell me is poorly defined.

I was trying to short-cut the conversation because we've been through this before. I didn't see a need to beat the proverbially dead horse. If you see it differently, I'd be curious to know what you have that's new.

I think most people would agree that aliens similar to humans (in mind) would have the right to life like humans.

They probably would, but that doesn't mean they've given it much thought. Maybe you're not aware of this, but the church went through this debate long ago. With the discovery of the New World came the question which strange creatures in that new world had souls and needed to be brought into the church. I forget the name of the Papal Bull that addresses it, but there is an interesting fiction book (Summa Elvetica) based off that idea about a mission sent to the Elves to determine if they have souls.

If you're interested, I can dig and try to find the Papal Bull. But I'd rather hear what new thoughts you might have on the topic since we last talked. Oh, and as I recall the Pope's conclusion was that Africans, Indians, etc. have souls and should be treated as God's children just as Europeans, which is what precipitated all those Franciscan missionaries to flood into the New World.
 
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quatona

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I misunderstood you. I thought you meant you quickly lose interest in god-concept conversations.
Ah, I see.
What indeed I have little to no interest in is the discussion "Does God exist?", and I don´t think this is "at the center of most discussions here". Granted, some theists can´t discuss any given topic without bringing up this question (or better: their answer), and we have to put up with that.

Now, if there were an actual presentation of people´s individual god concepts I think I would be very interested. But during my stay at CF I don´t recall a single instance where someone presented their god concept exhaustively. What we get is snippets.



Well, this comes across to me as "I don't understand what doesn't make sense".
Yeah, that happens when you change the keyterms during the conversation. As I said before, I didn´t intend to make a statement as to what I understand or don´t understand.

I guess I was looking for an example.
Well, one example would be the ancient mythology of a god becoming a human (sacrificing himself for humanity, etc etc). That´s a nice metaphore and all, but the attempts to a posteriori solve the logical problems of the Christian version of it by means of creating a concept like "hypostatic union" is just too transparent to swallow as something else but just that: a ridiculously overcomplicated a posteriori rationalization, created once people learned that some of their ideas simply didn´t add up.
 
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Paradoxum

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I didn't mean "discriminate" as a bad word. If I were to say you have discriminating taste in clothing, it just means you are very particular about what clothes you wear. In this case you use intelligence as a discriminator for "right to life". I don't.

Ah ok. By the way intelligence isn't the criteria I use. I don't think intelligence has much to do with it. I say intelligent aliens so you imagine an alien like humans, rather than bacteria or something quite different from humans.

Further, I wasn't saying you haven't grounded your idea. Rather, we ground our positions in something different. You ground intelligence as a discriminator in your reason (my sarcastic reply would be that you ground intelligence in intelligence, which seems a bit circular to me). My discriminator is the spiritual, which you will likely tell me is poorly defined.

Sure, we have different reason, but I'd say one of us is wrong and we can use reason to figure out which view is more reasonable. I used to have a more conservative view, but it changed as I learnt and thought about various issues. So I don't think people are with positions unchangeable by reasoning.

By the spiritual you mean the soul? I'd say there is no evidence of the soul, and even if you believe in a soul, there's isn't good reason think think it appears at conception. I'd also say this soul justification is divorced from the real problem of murder. To think murder is only wrong because of having a soul seems strange to me. If you stopped believing in a soul you'd think murder was okay? I would think the problem with murder is severely violating or harming someone.

I was trying to short-cut the conversation because we've been through this before. I didn't see a need to beat the proverbially dead horse. If you see it differently, I'd be curious to know what you have that's new.

Well I don't think the right to life is based on intelligence, though I see why you might think that from my short explanations.

I think the right to life is based on self-consciousness, or valuing oneself (which requires self-consciousness). What is wrong seems to be connected to what a being wants. eg: whipping someone can be right or wrong depending on whether they want it done to them. With life and death too, whether killing is wrong is connected to the will of the being involved. Most animals don't have the self-consciousness required to want to continue existing.

They probably would, but that doesn't mean they've given it much thought. Maybe you're not aware of this, but the church went through this debate long ago. With the discovery of the New World came the question which strange creatures in that new world had souls and needed to be brought into the church. I forget the name of the Papal Bull that addresses it, but there is an interesting fiction book (Summa Elvetica) based off that idea about a mission sent to the Elves to determine if they have souls.

If you're interested, I can dig and try to find the Papal Bull. But I'd rather hear what new thoughts you might have on the topic since we last talked. Oh, and as I recall the Pope's conclusion was that Africans, Indians, etc. have souls and should be treated as God's children just as Europeans, which is what precipitated all those Franciscan missionaries to flood into the New World.

Well that is interesting, but I don't care to read something by the Catholic church. I think it has shown itself to be morally corrupt and not to have a clue what it's talking about on many issues. Contraception is wrong? Your moral compass has to be seriously broken to believe that.

I know your not Catholic... I just felt like complaining. :p
 
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Resha Caner

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-a person who led a caring life and helping others, but does not believe in the christian God being doomed. But, the serial killer who accepts Jesus five minutes before he goes to the chair is saved?

-How about being able to dump all your sins on someone else at any time. Sort of takes away accountability of one's life.

-How about leaving man suffering on earth for at least 100,000 years before God decides to send his son to save everyone. And then, only exposing a small portion of the population to his word, which is required to believe in to avoid eternal torment?

I could go on and on, but there is so much of the christian story that does not strike one as being; fair, moral or making a lick of logic.

If I recall, your approach to explaining these conundrums is psychology. However, I've never understood what you think it is that distinguishes the psychology of Christians.
 
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bhsmte

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If I recall, your approach to explaining these conundrums is psychology. However, I've never understood what you think it is that distinguishes the psychology of Christians.

This is a short list of the issues with christianity, that either make no sense what so ever, are immoral and do not reconcile with an all loving, all caring all powerful God who cares about all his creation. Psychology itself does not explain the massive contradictions and lack of logic in the christian story, it helps to explain how these stories developed and evolved over time and why people buy into them, despite the fact you have to jump through flaming hoops to reconcile them.

In regards to psychology, each of our own unique psychological needs play a role in how we interpret information, what we choose to believe in etc.. IMO, for someone to be able to reconcile the christian story and believe in it, requires them to have a psychological need they are fulfilling.

Lastly, I am not saying that need that drives the belief is unhealthy, as long as the belief does not cause them to impose or judge others who don't share their belief and or cause harm to themselves or others.

I have no issue with someone who says "I believe" based on faith and it makes me a better person and allows me to cope with life. I take issue when someone claims others are missing the boat if they do not believe, they haven't tried to connect with God, or they are a lessor person because they do not believe.

Beyond that, one can believe what they like.
 
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Resha Caner

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Now, if there were an actual presentation of people´s individual god concepts I think I would be very interested. But during my stay at CF I don´t recall a single instance where someone presented their god concept exhaustively. What we get is snippets.

I could give you a list of things to read if you really want, but I don't think it would suffice. I believe that all the reading in the world will still fail to properly communicate the essence of any person - let alone God. Beings must be experienced, not discussed intellectually.

Yeah, that happens when you change the keyterms during the conversation. As I said before, I didn´t intend to make a statement as to what I understand or don´t understand.

I wasn't trying to shift any goalposts. "Fathom" is a synonym of "understand". But we'll use whatever word you prefer, so "fathom" it is.

Well, one example would be the ancient mythology of a god becoming a human (sacrificing himself for humanity, etc etc). That´s a nice metaphore and all, but the attempts to a posteriori solve the logical problems of the Christian version of it by means of creating a concept like "hypostatic union" is just too transparent to swallow as something else but just that: a ridiculously overcomplicated a posteriori rationalization, created once people learned that some of their ideas simply didn´t add up.

Ah. I'm not a big fan of the way Greek thought crept into Christianity - Thomism and such. The idea of hypostasis is one of those cases.

So, you don't like a posteriori explanations. I can understand that. But how would you separate that from continuing discovery? I would expect there are any number of ideas you do accept that were not birthed in an instant, but required a process of try, err, repeat. Are you expecting a perfectly complete god-concept?
 
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Resha Caner

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Ah ok. By the way intelligence isn't the criteria I use.

Hmm. So consciousness is your criteria? What is the means for establishing consciousness? It seems to me that is highly susceptible to anthropomorphism. In that sense, I see why your "alien" thought experiment would be relevant. Still, I don't see why you need to wait. You have all kinds of life surrounding you that you could use to test your ideas of consciousness. I wouldn't dismiss other animals too quickly, and I don't find your reasons for doing so at all convincing. I could easily demonstrate the desire animals (and plants for that matter) have to live.

How do you know you have succeeded in finding another consciousness? I suspect your answers might not differ much from the way I know other people have souls. IOW, might your "consciousness" just be a secular version of my "soul"?

Well that is interesting, but I don't care to read something by the Catholic church. I think it has shown itself to be morally corrupt and not to have a clue what it's talking about on many issues.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. For example, Galileo was a devout Catholic - and also a brilliant scientist. IOW, not all that bears the stamp of the RCC is evil. Still, if you're not interested that's fine.
 
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Resha Caner

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Psychology itself does not explain the massive contradictions and lack of logic in the christian story ...

So psychology is only part of the explanation? What do you think is the other part, then?

I'm also curious to know what you do when someone says you have misinterpreted the Bible.

IMO, for someone to be able to reconcile the christian story and believe in it, requires them to have a psychological need they are fulfilling.

OK, but why does a Christian fill this need in a way that is different than a non-Christian?
 
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quatona

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I could give you a list of things to read if you really want, but I don't think it would suffice.
Now, I have enough (read and to-be-read) books on my shelf already. When I come to a discussion board I want to talk to the people there about their ideas.
But thanks for the offer.
I believe that all the reading in the world will still fail to properly communicate the essence of any person - let alone God. Beings must be experienced, not discussed intellectually.
But, obviously, that´s not what can be done here on a discussion board, and on top that wasn´t the topic of your thread.




I wasn't trying to shift any goalposts. "Fathom" is a synonym of "understand". But we'll use whatever word you prefer, so "fathom" it is.
Well, we all know that two words may have some congruent content, but they are never really synonyms. They always have subtle differences in their meanings and connotations. That said, I am not a native English speaker, so chances are that I am completely wrong about the subtle connotations of "fathom", as opposed to "understand".
Anyway, I was hoping that my responses to your questions were telling you something about what I felt you were asking.
If my responses aren´t going in the direction you meant to ask, you are always welcome to insist and rephrase.



Ah. I'm not a big fan of the way Greek thought crept into Christianity - Thomism and such. The idea of hypostasis is one of those cases.
Well, you asked for an example, and incidentally the example had to do with Greek thought. I didn´t mean to give an example for Greek thought, though, but for trying to put much intellectual effort in post hoc rationalizing a metaphore/myth.
If you want another (admittedly gross) example:
One of the resident three top comedians here at CF tries to explain away the disconnect with a literal understand of Genesis and facts about the age of the universe by inventing the concept "embedded age".

So, you don't like a posteriori explanations.
No. Explanations are always a posteriori. I tried to explain what about certain "explanations" is causing my discontent. I may not have been entirely clear in this description, but simply ignoring the fact that I made the attempt, and paraphrasing my statement as though it hadn´t come with any qualifications isn´t sitting well with me.
But how would you separate that from continuing discovery?
Well, "discovery" is about facts, to begin with. An increased effort to interprete that which even hasn´t been "discovered" (but just has been claimed somewhere) doesn´t have much to do with "discovery".
Are you expecting a perfectly complete god-concept?
Well, let me say it that way:
I am expecting a god concept that is able to cover all that it is meant to cover. I am not interested in discussing a god concept that is like a small cloth which is spontaneously shifted whereever an uncovered spot is pointed out, thereby leaving numerous other spots uncovered (and vice versa, and so on).
And on another note, I am not particularly interested in discussing god concepts that start out with the attempt to make logical explanations but reliably end up with "well, it´s a mystery/it´s beyond human comprehension/it´s beyond logic/..." when they don´t succeed to logically explain what they were claimed to explain.

But this is not the thread to take god concepts apart.
You asked me at what point I am losing interest in certain ideas, and I told you what that point was. I guess I´m just not the kind of guy who buys a a sea sight apartment in the middle of the Sahara - not even if the guy selling it declares the sea sight thing to be "embedded", "hypostatic", "spiritual" or "beyond human comprehension" (or tells me that "the Sahara" and "the middle" are sweeping terms and that therefore it´s entirely possible to have sea sight in the middle of the Sahara). ;)
 
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Resha Caner

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When I come to a discussion board I want to talk to the people there about their ideas.

So what do you think is the best way to unpack those ideas?

That said, I am not a native English speaker, so chances are that I am completely wrong about the subtle connotations of "fathom", as opposed to "understand".

No, no. I sometimes think your English is better than mine. I'm jealous. I meant what I said. If you feel I shifted meanings on you, then I want to go back to using your words.

Anyway, I was hoping that my responses to your questions were telling you something about what I felt you were asking.

You have, and I'm attempting to take the discussion deeper. There is a fine line between asking probing questions and attacking someone's idea. I'm trying to do the former and not the latter.

Well, "discovery" is about facts, to begin with. An increased effort to interprete that which even hasn´t been "discovered" (but just has been claimed somewhere) doesn´t have much to do with "discovery".
Well, let me say it that way:
I am expecting a god concept that is able to cover all that it is meant to cover. I am not interested in discussing a god concept that is like a small cloth which is spontaneously shifted whereever an uncovered spot is pointed out, thereby leaving numerous other spots uncovered (and vice versa, and so on).
And on another note, I am not particularly interested in discussing god concepts that start out with the attempt to make logical explanations but reliably end up with "well, it´s a mystery/it´s beyond human comprehension/it´s beyond logic/..." when they don´t succeed to logically explain what they were claimed to explain.

OK. All 3 of those make sense. I'm not trying to take us off topic, but dig deeper. So, let me try again. I'm basically asking what leads you to think such things have occurred?

We don't need to attempt to discuss all your examples at once. So, how do you discern what a concept is "meant to cover"? I'm curious how you separate that from the possibility that what your question about a possible hole has done is open a discussion of a deeper layer of understanding or a different facet that requires introducing new terms, concepts, etc.?
 
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