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Why Christians and evolutionists can NEVER agree

Sayre

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Hi MKJ,

You make a great point. At the end of the creation period, God calls the creation "good". And yet in 1 Pe 1:20-21 we read that the revelation of Christ has been progressively revealed. God was calling something good even though humans at that point in time only saw partially the redemption that had already occurred before all time.
 
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Sayre

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Hi Sayre,

Yes, it would seem. Now, the question is which one of us knows the truth? Actually there is a test that has recently come up that gives support to some of the 'dictation' of the Scriptures. Have you looked into the bible 'codes'? It is a phenomenon that can only be found in the Pentateuch. Not even other writings of the Scriptures yield the results, and no other writing of man since in any literature, shown in the Pentateuch.

Now, I don't base my faith on the 'codes' but it is certainly an odd and unique anomaly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Interesting.

I'm not sure I agree the codes are anything more than data mining.

That said, why would God communicate His inspiration through a code, rather than through the Holy Spirit?

I also point out that inspiration doesn't imply literalism, so even if the codes were legit, they don't help you to demonstrate that Genesis should be read literally.
 
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miamited

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Interesting.

I'm not sure I agree the codes are anything more than data mining.

Well, I'd just say then, that since you aren't sure you should probably check it out. As I said, all the evidence points to it being a singularly unique anomaly found only in the Pentateuch. That alone should cause a believer to scratch his head and want to find out more.

That said, why would God communicate His inspiration through a code, rather than through the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps it's because God is merciful and He loves us. He has opened up in these last days the very last and possibly greatest evidence that He is behind the Scriptures and asking that every thinking man take a good look before the end and decide what road they want to be on.

I also point out that inspiration doesn't imply literalism, so even if the codes were legit, they don't help you to demonstrate that Genesis should be read literally.

Well, I can't speak for what you would believe that it 'implies', but for me it implies 'truth' I have already provided my reasons for discounting the creation account as some 'mythological truth'. He defined the word 'yom' just as He should have. God is wiser than you or I and He knew that the word 'yom' in the language that He created had to have a contextual qualifier and He gave it. Now, each one is certainly free to discount or ignore the contextual qualifiers, but for me, that then sets them among the group that Peter warned us of. Those who would work to distort the Scriptures.

You'll have to go with what you believe in your heart is the truth. I can only give you the evidences that I find. It is up to the Holy Spirit to convict of truth. It ain't my job, friend. What I know is that there will come a day in which we will know the truth and the consequences thereof for believing or not believing it.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Calminian

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Hi MKJ,

You make a great point. At the end of the creation period, God calls the creation "good". And yet in 1 Pe 1:20-21 we read that the revelation of Christ has been progressively revealed. God was calling something good even though humans at that point in time only saw partially the redemption that had already occurred before all time.

But why not just believe what scripture says? God called it good because it was good. Death in scripture is never good. It is the last enemy that God will defeat.
 
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Sayre

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But why not just believe what scripture says? God called it good because it was good. Death in scripture is never good. It is the last enemy that God will defeat.

This isn't about belief, or about value or respect, it is about interpretation.

I could reflect your argument onto Jesus' parables. "Why not just believe what scripture says" when the Word talks about Jesus as the root of Jesse? Is Jesus a tree? Was that tree deciduous? Is there a sword coming out of His mouth? Why don't you just believe these scriptures!

Truth is, you believe them, but subject to your preferential interpretation. Which is all I do :).

God bless you both.
 
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mark kennedy

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I also point out that inspiration doesn't imply literalism, so even if the codes were legit, they don't help you to demonstrate that Genesis should be read literally.

An interesting statement, if the historical narratives of Genesis cannot be taken literally what does that say about redemptive history witnessed throughout Scripture?
 
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Sayre

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An interesting statement, if the historical narratives of Genesis cannot be taken literally what does that say about redemptive history witnessed throughout Scripture?

Nothing.

There is nothing contrary about a system of revelation that initially uses stories to convey truth, and becomes more literal, more history based, as time progresses and the worldview of society changes.

In fact, you would say it is expected, as God is using whatever means is most appropriate to speak to people in the language they would understand. Initially that was stories, now it seems to be more fact-conveyance.

None of this changes the core message. Man still fell. Jesus still died and rose again.
 
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KWCrazy

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The Bible states very clearly that God created the heavens and the Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh. By the end of the sixth day the waters teemed with fish, birds flew through the air and Adam was alive; formed from the dust of the earth. The order of creation invalidates evolution. The timeline of creation invalidates evolution. The fact that everything mentioned was created in its mature form including the earth itself invalidates evolution. The very specific verbiage used; using a number qualifier as well as the evening and the morning to clarify that the days were actual days; these things also prove that evolution is incompatible with the Scriptures.

You can believe anything you want, but if it contradicts the Scriptures it's false doctrine. Jesus taught that the Scriptures were accurate as written. He would not have validated the authenticity of allegories or myths. It is the inspired word of God, confirmed by the very son of God. You can wrap you disbelief in anything you choose, but evolution is false doctrine. It may be "scientific," but it never happened.
 
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MKJ

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But why not just believe what scripture says? God called it good because it was good. Death in scripture is never good. It is the last enemy that God will defeat.

Why do you think that progressive revelation would mean that God approves of death?

Even in the creation account itself, there are indications that there was change and that there would be change.

As well, it can be possible for something to be a limited good. While death might be bad in one sense, it might be better in a limited sense than something else. A traditional interpretation of genesis often holds that the reason God barred Adam and eve from the garden was so that they did not eat of the tree of life in their fallen state. Limited death was seen as preferable to becoming fixed in a state of separation from God.
 
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MKJ

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Hi MKJ,

Well, my first question anytime someone tries to teach me based on knowledge of someone outside the Scriptures is: And you believe this man knows the truth because...? I mean really, there are a whole plethora of men who have written seemingly wise things about God, but how do we know that they know the truth? Do you have first hand knowledge that Augustine was born again? Here's what wiki concludes about him:

Nonetheless, though considered to be mistaken on some points, he is still considered a saint, and his feast day is celebrated on 15 June.[13] He carries the additional title of Blessed among the Orthodox, either as "Blessed Augustine" or "St. Augustine the Blessed."[14

So, how do you know that what you preach as supported by some writing of Augustine's that you can't even go back and ask him, "Well, look, is this really what you meant to confer to the reader when you wrote...?" is really the truth about the real and actual beginning that was even several thousand years before his day?

You say that he wrote: that in the created universe, we see things existing not only actually, but potentially - the universe and all of its multiplicity folds out and reveals itself over time, not all at the instant of creation.


Now, I probably don't understand it as he meant it, but that statement says to me that he is merely saying that over time events fold out and reveal themselves. I mean to me this is nothing more than some really wise guys way of saying, "Well, we don't know how the future will play out because the multiplicity of all possibilities of the universe will fold out and we will see these things as they come into being. But I don't get even the slightest inkling that he is talking about biologicals here, but merely events.

You're probably a lot smarter than I am so I'll leave you to believe what you like. However, just because you're smarter than I doesn't make even on whit of difference as to whether you know the truth about the things of God. For that, one must have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Stupid, poor, rich learned the things of God are only made known by the Spirit of God.

So, was Augustine born again or was he just a guy 1700 years ago who did a lot of study of religiosity and did he intend that this statement he wrote was to be understood to have even a whit of inference to the days of creation? Those are the questions you will need to provide answers to for me, before I would be willing to consider that he may have known the truth about the creation account.

Sorry, but I'm rather a Sola Scriptura kind of guy. I believe what the Scriptures tell me and not much else when it comes to the things of God. You seem to be obviously hell bent to believe and teach that evolutionary theory is the explanation of the truth of how things became to be what they are today. I'm not quite so interested in getting to hell quite as quickly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

You could say that Augustine was the poster-child for being born-again, though it would be an anachronistic idea in a way. Although, you know, it rather seems like discussing Augustine is a way of actually avoiding discussing the issue.

Why listen to Augustine? - maybe because he was one of the greatest of Christians men, theologians, and interpreters of Scripture? Because his teachers were among some of the greatest saints as well?

Let me put it this way - the kind of Biblical literalism you are using did not appear until the 19th century. It comes out of the Enlightenment, and is a twin sister to the idea that only materialistic science can give us the truth.

It is a way of reading which is destined to misread and misunderstand Scripture, because it refuses to understand how it was written - that people did not consider modern historical or scientific factualism the only kind of acceptable expression.

So yes - I will be inclined to consider the interpretation of a great 5th century Christian who read Scripture according to the same methods as the first century Christians, superior to a method created by rather reactionary 19th century Christians who were afraid that science was going to destroy their faith.

The road to Hell is an interesting thing. I am not worried for my faith if evolution is true, or is not true. I am not worried for my faith if Jonah really was swallowed by a whale and emerged alive. I am not worried if there are intelligent aliens or not. These things cannot make me disbelieve, and so I feel free to look at the evidence and believe or not, or change my mind if that is indicated, or come to no conclusion. These things have no impact on the things I need to know as a Christian.

It often seems to me that it is fear of losing ones faith that makes people worry so much about "proving" things like modern creationism. If there is a road to Hell, it is thinking that the truth about the way God brought things into being is some kind of threat to faith.
 
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Calminian

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This isn't about belief, or about value or respect, it is about interpretation.

I could reflect your argument onto Jesus' parables. "Why not just believe what scripture says" when the Word talks about Jesus as the root of Jesse? Is Jesus a tree? Was that tree deciduous? Is there a sword coming out of His mouth? Why don't you just believe these scriptures!

No because according to scripture the root of Jesse is talking about His genealogy. I let scripture interpret scripture. I let the authors determine the meaning, rather than forcing a meaning onto their writings. Figurative statements are used in language all the time, and they are revealed in context.

But what you're doing is trying to force scripture to be compatible with mans ideas about origins. You don't have any textual reasons for your interpretations, you're just trying to find an interpretation that doesn't contradict what you've chosen to believe. You're refusing to allow the authors to define their own terms and communicate with you. If you were wrestling with the text that would be different.

The real blessing that you're missing is letting God's word instruct you about man's ideas.
 
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miamited

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You could say that Augustine was the poster-child for being born-again, though it would be an anachronistic idea in a way. Although, you know, it rather seems like discussing Augustine is a way of actually avoiding discussing the issue.

What? I'm I not addressing the issue? You brought up Augustine and claimed that some statement he wrote infers some things about creation, of which I don't agree. I don't have a clue whether Augustine was born again.

Why listen to Augustine? - maybe because he was one of the greatest of Christians men, theologians, and interpreters of Scripture? Because his teachers were among some of the greatest saints as well?

Yes, and that same understanding could be made of Nicodemus, I mean have you ever actually sat down and studied what it took to be a Pharisee in that day as far as knowledge of God's word? Jesus himself rebuked Nicodemus for his 'lack of understanding', not his knowledge. So, yes, before I'm going to ever accept that some man knows the truth and is, therefore, teaching the truth, when it comes to the things of God, I must be assured that he has the Spirit of Truth. Take a minute and Google John Shelby Spong. This man is a wise and learned man. He has spent the better part of his life expounding on and teaching the word of God. As a bishop of a denomination he has been looked up to with honor and understanding of those things. Should I believe what he teaches? And he is even still alive that I can go to him and ask him, "Is this what you mean? Is this what I should understand of what you have written?"

Augustine is a dead man. He apparently spent much time in study of the Scriptures and did quite a bit of writing about what he understood about them, but that same claim can be made of Nicodemus and John Spong. So, I repeat, I am not willing to give agreement to what someone else wrote unless I can confirm it by the word of God and have some reasonable assurance that it was written by a child of God. You have committed as an unreliable witness. You have taken a small portion of a man's writings and then defined and translated that small portion as meaning 'this'. I don't agree that the words that are claimed to be the words that he wrote mean 'this'. I don't have any assurance in my spirit by the Holy Spirit that this passage has anything whatsoever to say about what Augustine believed as the truth of the creation.


Let me put it this way - the kind of Biblical literalism you are using did not appear until the 19th century. It comes out of the Enlightenment, and is a twin sister to the idea that only materialistic science can give us the truth.

You really are just way to full of yourself. No, you've got it backwards the kind of biblical literalism that I am using and applying was in the beginning and man, as he has always proven himself to do, is moving further and further away from the truth. I'm not up to addressing your ideas about science, but be fully assured that I'm not in agreement with your understanding.

It is a way of reading which is destined to misread and misunderstand Scripture, because it refuses to understand how it was written - that people did not consider modern historical or scientific factualism the only kind of acceptable expression.

So yes - I will be inclined to consider the interpretation of a great 5th century Christian who read Scripture according to the same methods as the first century Christians, superior to a method created by rather reactionary 19th century Christians who were afraid that science was going to destroy their faith.

Well, if that's what you're comfortable with to establish who can teach you the truth, then that's certainly what I would expect you to go with.

The road to Hell is an interesting thing. I am not worried for my faith if evolution is true, or is not true. I am not worried for my faith if Jonah really was swallowed by a whale and emerged alive. I am not worried if there are intelligent aliens or not. These things cannot make me disbelieve, and so I feel free to look at the evidence and believe or not, or change my mind if that is indicated, or come to no conclusion. These things have no impact on the things I need to know as a Christian.

It often seems to me that it is fear of losing ones faith that makes people worry so much about "proving" things like modern creationism. If there is a road to Hell, it is thinking that the truth about the way God brought things into being is some kind of threat to faith.

Friend, I'm not worried about 'proving' anything. Each man will believe what he has set in his heart to believe, but I am all about telling the truth. I agree that you or I or anyone will 'look at the evidence and believe or not...'. Whether or not that have any impact on what you need to know as a Christian, is yet to be determined.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Calminian

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Y...Why listen to Augustine? - maybe because he was one of the greatest of Christians men, theologians, and interpreters of Scripture? Because his teachers were among some of the greatest saints as well?....

Augustine definitely deserves to be listened to. He's not perfect, but got many things right, which is not bad considering he didn't know biblical languages (no biblical hebrew at all) or have the resources we have today.

But you might be surprised to find out that Augustine actually was a YEC. Yeah! The early fathers fought vigorously against the old earth ideas of the greeks, and used the Bible to fight against them. Augustine was perhaps the most influenced by jewish allegorism but he still believed in an instantaneous miraculous creation, and he believe Genesis to be historical narrative. He also believed the flood to be global.

Now most early fathers disagreed with Augustine about the days of creation. Most believed they were literal. Hugh Ross and others have completely distorted the early fathers in this regard, by misunderstanding what the fathers meant by allegory. It was a term closer in meaning to what we call typology. For while the fathers believed that the days were literal morning evening days, they also believed they were types of future 1000 years periods. Thus they believed the world would last only 6000 years. Why? Because they believed in a literal 6 day creation!

And even those who didn't hold to literal days, still were young earthers, and believed Genesis to be literal history, and more important understood that death proceeded out of sin. None of them fell for the old earth ideas of their day. I think old earthers should follow Augustine more closely. He didn't buy into man's ideas about deep time.

Now understand, the fathers are not inspired individuals were not perfect theologians. They didn't have the resource we have today, didn't have biblical languages, and were influenced by jewish allegory quite a bit. Yet, with all that, they still were young earth creationists and fought old earth ideas. The text was just too plain to allow a compromise with greek notions of deep time. Why old earthers like to refer to them is beyond me.
 
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Calminian

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Friend, I'm not worried about 'proving' anything. Each man will believe what he has set in his heart to believe, but I am all about telling the truth. I agree that you or I or anyone will 'look at the evidence and believe or not...'. Whether or not that have any impact on what you need to know as a Christian, is yet to be determined.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Indeed. We really can't prove anything. We can plant and water, that's about it. God provides the growth. It's humbling yet encouraging. :thumbsup:
 
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miamited

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Hi cal,

Thanks for your info regarding what you believe Augustine believed about the creation event. I've really never studied any of the so called 'early fathers', but I am encouraged that what MKJ seems to believe that Augustine was saying in the writing that he quotes, isn't at all what Augustine was probably saying. Hopefully he will do some further study to understand the man's writings and what his core beliefs really were and not try to use ambiguous statements by a man some 1,600 years dead to support what he believes.

That's one of the reasons I don't spend much time considering what these 'fathers' believed because unless they make an exact claim about something, often the ambiguity of their writings is wrapped around the wrong core of their belief and unless we have them here to ask and say, "Is this what you're trying to say?", we're just left to guess and extrapolate however our heart sees fit to do.

All we can do is break down one false belief and then another and another in hopes that some will reevaluate what they believe as the 'truth'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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MKJ

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Augustine definitely deserves to be listened to. He's not perfect, but got many things right, which is not bad considering he didn't know biblical languages (no biblical hebrew at all) or have the resources we have today.

But you might be surprised to find out that Augustine actually was a YEC. Yeah! The early fathers fought vigorously against the old earth ideas of the greeks, and used the Bible to fight against them. Augustine was perhaps the most influenced by jewish allegorism but he still believed in an instantaneous miraculous creation, and he believe Genesis to be historical narrative. He also believed the flood to be global.

Now most early fathers disagreed with Augustine about the days of creation. Most believed they were literal. Hugh Ross and others have completely distorted the early fathers in this regard, by misunderstanding what the fathers meant by allegory. It was a term closer in meaning to what we call typology. For while the fathers believed that the days were literal morning evening days, they also believed they were types of future 1000 years periods. Thus they believed the world would last only 6000 years. Why? Because they believed in a literal 6 day creation!

And even those who didn't hold to literal days, still were young earthers, and believed Genesis to be literal history, and more important understood that death proceeded out of sin. None of them fell for the old earth ideas of their day. I think old earthers should follow Augustine more closely. He didn't buy into man's ideas about deep time.

Now understand, the fathers are not inspired individuals were not perfect theologians. They didn't have the resource we have today, didn't have biblical languages, and were influenced by jewish allegory quite a bit. Yet, with all that, they still were young earth creationists and fought old earth ideas. The text was just too plain to allow a compromise with greek notions of deep time. Why old earthers like to refer to them is beyond me.

To say Augustine, or any of the Christians before the modern period, were YEC, is totally anachronistic. As it is to say the Greeks were old earth believers.

The Greeks believed the material world had existed eternally, that there was no beginning of time, that there was no possibility of a special act of creation by God - in fact that God could not act at all. In fact the inability of god to act was part of the reason for seeing the world as eternal.

These were the ideas the Church Fathers objected to, in particular the implications of the last part which were cleary not acceptable to Christians. And they have nothing to do with the theory of evolution, and little to do with modern cosmology.

The Big Bang theory was originally objected to by non-Christian scientists as being too Christian a theory - their idea was much more like what the Greeks believed, that the universe is eternal and static. A universe with a beginning and end, in their view, was creationist cod-whollop, just the sort of thing a Christian scientist might come up with.

Of course people living in the 5th century had different ideas about particular physical phenomena. Some people thought that the sun was the center of the universe, or maggots came from rotting meat. These are problems of fact, and it is not surprising that we know some facts that they did not.

The important point is the principles. What are the principles that we need to know about the relation of God to the material world that we perceive? What are the principles we need to know when we consider what Scriptures and the teachings of the Church mean?

I would suggest there are some clear answers there. One is that creation itself is a part of God's revelation, and it will never contradict his revelation in Scripture and the Church. If they seem to contradict, we are misunderstanding one or the other.

The other is that even quite early in the history of the Church, we see that people were comfortable with the idea that the creation account was not to be understood in a strictly historical or scientific way. Some did see it that way, but many orthodox thinkers did not and that was an acceptable position.

I am slightly flummoxed that you say that being influenced by Jewish allegory was some sort of a problem. That would, I would think, allow them to actually read the texts as they were intended, rather than like most modern fundamentalist readers do, which is as if they had been written by people from 19th century America. Ancient people, unlike us, saw allegory as a real and valid way to speak truth. The people who actually write the texts of the Bible down were, in fact, ancient people.
 
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MKJ

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What? I'm I not addressing the issue? You brought up Augustine and claimed that some statement he wrote infers some things about creation, of which I don't agree. I don't have a clue whether Augustine was born again.

No, I didn't bring up Augustine, someone else did and mentioned a particular thing he said. I pointed out that his reasons for thinking such went beyond the question of evolution and spoke to fairly fundamental problems in how we understand change in the material world. There are a number of parallels between the question of change and how to understand evolution.

The ideas are what is most important, but it is useful to know they came from Augustine because if we know about his ideas, we can see how what he said fits into his other ideas about God.


I don't know that it is possible to know if anyone is really "born again" or indeed if we are ourselves. So I can't see that as a terribly useful way to judge whether we should consider someones ideas.

As far as judging people's ideas based on how they accord with Scripture, I have to ask how you know your interpretation is better than anyone elses? If you reject Augustine's interpretation, whose are you substituting? Ultimately, your own.

So really, you might as well just look at the ideas themselves.

Friend, I'm not worried about 'proving' anything. Each man will believe what he has set in his heart to believe, but I am all about telling the truth. I agree that you or I or anyone will 'look at the evidence and believe or not...'. Whether or not that have any impact on what you need to know as a Christian, is yet to be determined.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hmm. I would have guessed you subscribed to faith alone.
 
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MKJ

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Hi cal,

Thanks for your info regarding what you believe Augustine believed about the creation event. I've really never studied any of the so called 'early fathers', but I am encouraged that what MKJ seems to believe that Augustine was saying in the writing that he quotes, isn't at all what Augustine was probably saying. Hopefully he will do some further study to understand the man's writings and what his core beliefs really were and not try to use ambiguous statements by a man some 1,600 years dead to support what he believes.

That's one of the reasons I don't spend much time considering what these 'fathers' believed because unless they make an exact claim about something, often the ambiguity of their writings is wrapped around the wrong core of their belief and unless we have them here to ask and say, "Is this what you're trying to say?", we're just left to guess and extrapolate however our heart sees fit to do.

All we can do is break down one false belief and then another and another in hopes that some will reevaluate what they believe as the 'truth'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I'm a 'she".

And no, Augustine was not a young earth creationist. There was no such thing in the 5th century.
 
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