Persecution in Uganda/ "Aggravated Homosexuality"

[Ishraqiyun]

As a Christian it really bothers me to see fellow Christians advocating the persecution of individuals because of their sexual identity. Not long ago the nation of Russia, urged on by the Orthodox Church, passed laws banning open homosexuality. Recently Uganda, again at the behest of Churches and Christian interest groups, has passed an even more draconian law calling not only for life imprisonment for "aggravated homosexuality" (those with multiple "offenses") but also making it illegal to fail to turn homosexuals in to the state if you know they are gay. If a doctor, psychiatrist, or counselor finds out a person is gay it's now their legal duty to rat on them to the government! What makes this even more shocking is American Evangelicals, people from my own country, are thought to have put time and money into propaganda campaigns in Uganda to turn people against homosexuals and to back such measures. One American, Scott Lively, a Massachusetts evangelical, was actually sued for trying to propagandize in that manner.

It's sad that with all the problems in Uganda people find it so important to go after the gays. Seems like something politicians would support to keep peoples minds off the real problems and government corruption. Typical fascist style move. Go after a scapegoat to redirect attention and rouse passions.

Unfortunately many Christians are well informed about every crime imaginable committed by members of other religions (some specialize in complaining about people of specific religions) but seem to turn a blind eye to the dangerous fundamentalism in their/our own midst. If members of the various religions would worry more about reforming their own and taking out the plank in their own eye the world would be a better place. We can't fix other religions but we actually can have a measure of influence on our religion of Christianity.


Ugandan MPs pass life in jail anti-homosexual law

Uganda passes law that punishes 'aggravated homosexuality' with life imprisonment

​

 

[mindlight]

As a Christian it really bothers me to see fellow Christians advocating the persecution of individuals because of their sexual identity. Not long ago the nation of Russia, urged on by the Orthodox Church, passed laws banning open homosexuality. Recently Uganda, again at the behest of Churches and Christian interest groups, has passed an even more draconian law calling not only for life imprisonment for "aggravated homosexuality" (those with multiple "offenses") but also making it illegal to fail to turn homosexuals in to the state if you know they are gay. If a doctor, psychiatrist, or counselor finds out a person is gay it's now their legal duty to rat on them to the government! What makes this even more shocking is American Evangelicals, people from my own country, are thought to have put time and money into propaganda campaigns in Uganda to turn people against homosexuals and to back such measures. One American, Scott Lively, a Massachusetts evangelical, was actually sued for trying to propagandize in that manner.

It's sad that with all the problems in Uganda people find it so important to go after the gays. Seems like something politicians would support to keep peoples minds off the real problems and government corruption. Typical fascist style move. Go after a scapegoat to redirect attention and rouse passions.

Unfortunately many Christians are well informed about every crime imaginable committed by members of other religions (some specialize in complaining about people of specific religions) but seem to turn a blind eye to the dangerous fundamentalism in their/our own midst. If members of the various religions would worry more about reforming their own and taking out the plank in their own eye the world would be a better place. We can't fix other religions but we actually can have a measure of influence on our religion of Christianity.


Ugandan MPs pass life in jail anti-homosexual law

Uganda passes law that punishes 'aggravated homosexuality' with life imprisonment

A variety of Christian positions could be justifiable from scripture. Indeed the scale goes from the most extreme version of the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers and sexual perverts generally which was practiced by European governments for much of the last 1000 years to the more liberal understandings of today.

First and foremost there is no such thing as a homosexual. There is a person who has homosexual orientation to a greater or lesser degree and who may or may not be gulity of homosexual practice. Treating people as people is important and not reducing them to whichever sin they have come to be defined by is the more Christian way. All people should be regarded with the measure of respect due to them as human beings made in Gods image. I would much rather live in a country that respected my free will to make my own sins (where they were not destroying the lives of others) and to work out my own salvation in full awareness that God will one day judge me.

The second consideration is the role we attribute to the secular authorities. Is it the governments job to commentate or enforce the latest whims of the mob on sexual practices or not? Is it the states job to affirm homosexual relationships as "marriages" on a par with hetrosexual marriages?

The third consideration is the value of law in restraining evil. Law never seems fair to the people who want to do the things it restricts- this includes economic migrants being deported, squatters being evicted, and the police defending the rights of unpopular people to speak their mind. Yet unrestrained immigration would cause immense social dislocation and instability, a total lack of respect for property is something that would undermine the very structure of our society and freedom of speech crucial in the fight against corruption of whatever forms. The restraining and nonaffrimation of homosexual practice is a valuable role that the law could play.

The Ugandan model is a legitimate interpretation of Christian principles but I would not want to live in such a society which fails to model the deeper principles of mercy ,compassion and respect for freewill also evident in the Christian faith alongside the sternness of righteous law.

The Russian model merely bans the public expression of homosexuality which is fine in my view. The West has been corrupted and undermined by its recent shift in this area and the Islamic world and true believers across the world know this.

 

[Cearbhall]

The Russian model merely bans the public expression of homosexuality which is fine in my view. The West has been corrupted and undermined by its recent shift in this area and the Islamic world and true believers across the world know this.

So you're against freedom of speech, press, and assembly? What if we eventually decided that hate speech backed up by the Bible is too harmful to society to allow it in public spaces?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

The Russian model merely bans the public expression of homosexuality

Does that mean they can't publicly advocate for acceptance of gay people, gay marriage, or even for the law to be overturned by say putting a bumper sticker on their car that says "I'm gay - support gay rights"? I'm under the impression that would be illegal which is a major violation of free speech. People should be able to tell others that they are gay if they think doing so will open peoples eyes to the humanity , prevalence, and (what they consider to be**) normality of people with same sex attraction. They shouldn't be forced to keep silent. Gays don't make straight people stay in the closet about their relations and I think we should share the favor. This would be on par with banning wedding rings because some voters think heterosexuality is icky ,"keep it to yourselves!"

** I say what they consider to be normal because we are not supposed to call it normal on this forum I believe. Just pointing out that they should have the right to share their view on the issue in public.

 

[Stone Butterfly]

It is a mercy that Uganda removed the capital punishment from this measure. Death was the ultimate consequence for homosexuals in Uganda.

Now it is a matter of life in prison.
With all the trouble Uganda has in its midst I'm surprised its government would rely on evangelical American Christians to draft the language for a bill the Ugandan government felt needed to come before parliament.

In one sense that outreach denotes an attention to Christian scriptures and values. In the other it says there is evidently an issue in Uganda with gays that the government wants to quash by law.

Opening the gateway to permit gays rights in public leads to other perverse behaviors seeking outlet. I think the Ugandan government, in using American evangelicals to help stem that tide in the country are doing so because the Ugandan authorities witness what is happening in America now that gays are slowly gaining legal ground.
They're in return seeking to bully Christians, threaten the religious, and oppress free expression of faith and values.

Also, all manner of other deviant members of other communities are using the gay success by law to pursue their own right to demonstrate their deviance in the secular community.

Now we witness Utah overturning the ban on polygamous unions, not bigamy as yet, but polygamous relationships. Whereas polygamous marriage is eventually going to be the next pursuit under the charge of it being a civil right. Simply using this Utah decision as a precedent setting launch point.

Uganda stands as witness to the erosion of moral values in America once one community of immoral practitioners are permitted rights. They simply don't want to follow in our fallen footsteps.

God bless them.

A variety of Christian positions could be justifiable from scripture. Indeed the scale goes from the most extreme version of the death penalty for homosexuals, adulterers and sexual perverts generally which was practiced by European governments for much of the last 1000 years to the more liberal understandings of today.

First and foremost there is no such thing as a homosexual. There is a person who has homosexual orientation to a greater or lesser degree and who may or may not be gulity of homosexual practice. Treating people as people is important and not reducing them to whichever sin they have come to be defined by is the more Christian way. All people should be regarded with the measure of respect due to them as human beings made in Gods image. I would much rather live in a country that respected my free will to make my own sins (where they were not destroying the lives of others) and to work out my own salvation in full awareness that God will one day judge me.

The second consideration is the role we attribute to the secular authorities. Is it the governments job to commentate or enforce the latest whims of the mob on sexual practices or not? Is it the states job to affirm homosexual relationships as "marriages" on a par with hetrosexual marriages?

The third consideration is the value of law in restraining evil. Law never seems fair to the people who want to do the things it restricts- this includes economic migrants being deported, squatters being evicted, and the police defending the rights of unpopular people to speak their mind. Yet unrestrained immigration would cause immense social dislocation and instability, a total lack of respect for property is something that would undermine the very structure of our society and freedom of speech crucial in the fight against corruption of whatever forms. The restraining and nonaffrimation of homosexual practice is a valuable role that the law could play.

The Ugandan model is a legitimate interpretation of Christian principles but I would not want to live in such a society which fails to model the deeper principles of mercy ,compassion and respect for freewill also evident in the Christian faith alongside the sternness of righteous law.

The Russian model merely bans the public expression of homosexuality which is fine in my view. The West has been corrupted and undermined by its recent shift in this area and the Islamic world and true believers across the world know this.

 

[Cearbhall]

The third consideration is the value of law in restraining evil.

The law should only prohibit actions that harm individuals who have not consented.

 

[mindlight]

So you're against freedom of speech, press, and assembly? What if we eventually decided that hate speech backed up by the Bible is too harmful to society to allow it in public spaces?

The promotion of homosexuality is a clear case of promoting evil so it is not a free speech issue. Regarding preaching the good news ,that even homosexuals can be saved from their sins, it would make no difference if the law was changed to the authority with which the truth was spoken, but it would increase the cost of such steps of faith.

 

[mindlight]

Does that mean they can't publicly advocate for acceptance of gay people, gay marriage, or even for the law to be overturned by say putting a bumper sticker on their car that says "I'm gay - support gay rights"? I'm under the impression that would be illegal which is a major violation of free speech. People should be able to tell others that they are gay if they think doing so will open peoples eyes to the humanity , prevalence, and (what they consider to be**) normality of people with same sex attraction. They shouldn't be forced to keep silent. Gays don't make straight people stay in the closet about their relations and I think we should share the favor. This would be on par with banning wedding rings because some voters think heterosexuality is icky ,"keep it to yourselves!"

** I say what they consider to be normal because we are not supposed to call it normal on this forum I believe. Just pointing out that they should have the right to share their view on the issue in public.

The "I am gay bumper" sticker is on a par with "I have sex with animals and I am proud of it". Or "support my right to kill my baby" stickers. Allowing such things is to allow a pollution of the environment in which genuine concerns can and should be raised. Everyones ability to speak freely is diminished if such soiled expressions are allowed. Freedom is not anything goes and gay sex is over the border line of common decency. If people do it in the dark someplace that's their problem but if they want to broadcast the fact then they damage everybody by the expression of their sin in public.

 

[mindlight]

It is a mercy that Uganda removed the capital punishment from this measure. Death was the ultimate consequence for homosexuals in Uganda.

Now it is a matter of life in prison.
With all the trouble Uganda has in its midst I'm surprised its government would rely on evangelical American Christians to draft the language for a bill the Ugandan government felt needed to come before parliament.

In one sense that outreach denotes an attention to Christian scriptures and values. In the other it says there is evidently an issue in Uganda with gays that the government wants to quash by law.

Opening the gateway to permit gays rights in public leads to other perverse behaviors seeking outlet. I think the Ugandan government, in using American evangelicals to help stem that tide in the country are doing so because the Ugandan authorities witness what is happening in America now that gays are slowly gaining legal ground.
They're in return seeking to bully Christians, threaten the religious, and oppress free expression of faith and values.

Also, all manner of other deviant members of other communities are using the gay success by law to pursue their own right to demonstrate their deviance in the secular community.

Now we witness Utah overturning the ban on polygamous unions, not bigamy as yet, but polygamous relationships. Whereas polygamous marriage is eventually going to be the next pursuit under the charge of it being a civil right. Simply using this Utah decision as a precedent setting launch point.

Uganda stands as witness to the erosion of moral values in America once one community of immoral practitioners are permitted rights. They simply don't want to follow in our fallen footsteps.

God bless them.

Yes good post, Africa and Russia both seem to be taking a long hard look at the West and smelling the stench of moral decay in recent decisions. Take a firm stand now or fall prey to the same jugennaut of moral decline that afflicts the Western world. However behind the scenes British politicians are using things like aid budgets and offers of other kinds of assistance as levers to promote what they call human rights and what Africans ,Russians and Christians throughout the world call sin.

 

[Cearbhall]

The promotion of homosexuality is a clear case of promoting evil so it is not a free speech issue.

How is it not a free speech issue? The idea that it's evil is a religious opinion, not a "clear case." It has no rational justification. Feel free to hold that opinion, but don't try to force your personal restrictions on others.

The "I am gay bumper" sticker is on a par with "I have sex with animals and I am proud of it". Or "support my right to kill my baby" stickers.

"I am gay" is comparable to "I am black." Even if it said "I like having sex with other women," having sex with animals and killing babies involve participants who have not consented.

 

[Saleena]

The "I am gay bumper" sticker is on a par with "I have sex with animals and I am proud of it". Or "support my right to kill my baby" stickers. Allowing such things is to allow a pollution of the environment in which genuine concerns can and should be raised. Everyones ability to speak freely is diminished if such soiled expressions are allowed. Freedom is not anything goes and gay sex is over the border line of common decency. If people do it in the dark someplace that's their problem but if they want to broadcast the fact then they damage everybody by the expression of their sin in public.

You are entitled to your opinion and I mine.

 

[Cearbhall]

Freedom is not anything goes and gay sex is over the border line of common decency.

Do you have a legal argument that would hold up in a fair court?

If people do it in the dark someplace that's their problem but if they want to broadcast the fact then they damage everybody by the expression of their sin in public.

You seem to think that your personal discomfort matters when it comes to passing laws that restrict the behavior of others. It doesn't.

 

[mindlight]

The law should only prohibit actions that harm individuals who have not consented.

Oh please!

So there are various recent cases where consent to murder , to cannibalism and even various Satanic rituals was given freely and people died as a result.

If consent is the foundation of law then these things are not morally problematic in your view.

The courts will disagree with this principle in each of these cases. So the legal grounds for respecting boundaries to consent are already well entrenched.

BBC News - German policeman arrested in possible 'cannibal' case

Should ritual human sacrifices be permitted if subjects are willing adult volunteers? - Democratic Underground

Death by doctor: Controversial physician has made his name delivering euthanasia when no one else will | National Post

 

[Saleena]

If it makes you feel better, even if they let people sacrifice themselves for satan, the most they would be able to summon is some flora or fauna from hell. There aren't enough souls on this planet to summon the highest lords there.

 

[mindlight]

You are entitled to your opinion and I mine.

Within limits yes. It does also depend on what our opinions are. There are boundaries even to language.

 

[Saleena]

Within limits yes. It does also depend on what our opinions are. There are boundaries even to language.

No/yes you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. You are however not entitled to be free from the consequences and or criticisms that result from it being heard. <3

 

[mindlight]

If it makes you feel better, even if they let people sacrifice themselves for satan, the most they would be able to summon is some flora or fauna from hell. There aren't enough souls on this planet to summon the highest lords there.

I think you do not understand the zeal with which the dark lord seeks your personal spoiling and destruction. You just have to click your fingers, so long as you remember that the price, for whatever Faustian bargain you seek, is your very soul.

Consent in such submission is the consent to become a window through which poison spews into the world. That does have impacts on the rest of us and only a community committed to its own destruction lives in denial of this.

 

[Saleena]

I think you do not understand the zeal with which the dark Lord seeks your personal spoiling and destruction. You just have to click your fingers, so long as you remember that the price, for whatever Faustian bargain you seek, is your very soul.

Consent in such submission is the consent to become a window through which poison spews into the world. That does have impacts on the rest of us and only a community committed to its own destruction lives in denial of this.

Summoning doesn't work that way. He has more things to worry about than some schmuck clicking his heels together and wanting him there. There are rules to everything. Even pacts. It is very bureaucratic. People blame the devil for their own shortcomings. In reality it is them, if we are born of sin then we are to also take responsibility for that.

 

[Saleena]

I mean that post in no disrespect either. I just have researched this quite a bit. Even if I don't follow the christian way of life, I do know there are demons and are to be left well enough alone.

 

[mindlight]

Summoning doesn't work that way. He has more things to worry about than some schmuck clicking his heels together and wanting him there. There are rules to everything. Even pacts. It is very bureaucratic. People blame the devil for their own shortcomings. In reality it is them, if we are born of sin then we are to also take responsibility for that.

People who are already deceived enough to be considering inviting the devil in to run their lives have already cultivated enough sins to give him the openings he needs.

The Christian view is of the world, the flesh and the devil. There are social factors , personal dispositions and choices and then there is also demonic activities. Possession is actually quite rare though demonic influence more common. The Bible also tells us to resist the devil and he will flee from us. That is my experience. But the fight is in us, out there in the wider world AND in the spiritual realm that interpenetrates the one we see and feel with our senses.

The devil is no joke but I think you know that. He is also nothing compared to God. A mere candle against the sun.