Promise of a Gentile Messiah

[David Ben Yosef]

I dont mind "Jewish" flavor, so long as it doesn't contradict Christs words..

I am a supporter of Israel and the Jewish people. I recognize that Gods covenant with Israel is eternal.

 

[yedida]

Yedida, there is nothing in the above about Saving only Israel. Whereas there have been plenty of posts already showing that he came to save Gentiles as well. He went to the Jews first, not only.

Originally, during His 3year ministry, He indeed came only for Israel. If some gentiles found themselves in the crowds that were following Him, all fine and dandy - but He did not go into gentile territory, nor did He send His disciples. After Israel rejected Him, He told His disciples to go into all the earth, teaching and preaching whatsoever He had taught them. (One of the reasons that He wasn't to take the gospel to the gentiles is because Israel, all the time, was supposed to be (and was supposed to have been) the light in this world of darkness.)

 

[Lulav]

Yes it is. They had their own synagogues, and openly claimed to be Jews. Who else do you think it would be?

So you are claiming that the Samaritans are of the synagogue of Satan?

I was not aware that the Samaritans claimed to be Jews.

However there were some who did claim to be Jews, quite boastfully and yet mislead the people I would think they would be who he had in mind.

 

[annier]

Originally, during His 3year ministry, He indeed came only for Israel.

He came to Israel first yes. So I would agree he "originally" came to Israel only. If not he would not have come to Israel first.

If some gentiles found themselves in the crowds that were following Him, all fine and dandy - but He did not go into gentile territory, nor did He send His disciples.

He sent his disciples to Israel first also. They were continuing John's baptism to the Jew's.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

After Israel rejected Him, He told His disciples to go into all the earth, teaching and preaching whatsoever He had taught them.

He sent his disciples to all nations. So Israel first, then the nations.

(One of the reasons that He wasn't to take the gospel to the gentiles is because Israel, all the time, was supposed to be (and was supposed to have been) the light in this world of darkness.)

Christ is the light to the world.

 

[Lulav]

Again Lulav this is the exact same argument you made before. It does not say "only" Israel here either.

Yes, I did and it doesn't have to because it was speaking to Jews about the Jewish people.

The angel said:
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Here it is another way.

The Angel of the L-RD came to Joseph, a man of the Tribe of JUDAH and told him to name the child Miraim his wife was carrying 'Yeshua' because He would save His people (ie. Jews) from their sins.

 

[Lulav]

Yedida, there is nothing in the above about Saving only Israel. Whereas there have been plenty of posts already showing that he came to save Gentiles as well. He went to the Jews first, not only.

do you ignore Yeshua's word on this?

He said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra'el."

Matthew 15:24 CJV

If you don't trust the Complete Jewish Bible here it is in the NIV

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

RSV

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Holman Christian Standard Bible

He replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

International Standard Version

But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."

NET Bible

So he answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

But he answered and said to them, “I am not sent except to the sheep that have strayed from the house of Israel.”

It can't be any plainer.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

do you ignore Yeshua's word on this?

Matthew 15:24 CJV

If you don't trust the Complete Jewish Bible here it is in the NIV

RSV

Holman Christian Standard Bible
International Standard Version
NET Bible
Aramaic Bible in Plain English

It can't be any plainer.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

 

[Lulav]

He came to Israel first yes. So I would agree he "originally" came to Israel only. If not he would not have come to Israel first.

He sent his disciples to Israel first also. They were continuing John's baptism to the Jew's.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


He sent his disciples to all nations. So Israel first, then the nations.

Christ is the light to the world.

Israel was chosen by G-d to represent him on earth, that is why the Jews are called the Chosen people.

"I am the Lord, I have called you in righteousness, I have taken you by the hand and kept you; I have given you as a covenant to the people, a light to the nations, to open the eyes that are blind." Isaiah 42: 6-7.

 

[Lulav]

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

I stand by Yeshua's words first and foremost. I also am leary of so called mysteries without witnesses.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Israel was chosen by G-d to represent him on earth, that is why the Jews are called the Chosen people.

Im glad you know that.. Even as a Christian gentile, I know that the Jews are Gods Holy chosen people, specifically picked to represent him on earth..

We should be protecting our Jewish brothers at all costs..

God blesses those who bless Israel.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

I stand by Yeshua's words first and foremost. I also am leary of so called mysteries without witnesses.

Absolutely..

But Christ did acknowledge Gentiles, lets not forget..

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (This woman was a gentile)

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Jesus did in fact want the Gospel to go to the gentiles..

 

[Shimshon]

Yedida, there is nothing in the above about Saving only Israel. Whereas there have been plenty of posts already showing that he came to save Gentiles as well. He went to the Jews first, not only.

sigh... try it this way. Yeshua was sent only to Israel. THEN, Yeshua sent his Jewish disciples into the nations to bear witness about Him. AND to offer the nations the same salvation that was sent to Israel.

Meaning, Messiah was not sent by God into the nations, but sent those who were indwelt with God's Spirit into the nations to redeem them as well.

Messiah was sent to Israel, who in turn sent his followers into all the nations. These followers were filled with the Spirit of God and the indwelling of Yeshua, united as one. And were sent into all the wolrd to witness this miracle of redemption and blessing to Israel, and the world.

What is sad is the dogmatic positions being taken here. Always reminds me of the finger of God. And how with the type of reasoning displayed here one could present that God has a body. I mean, the text states 'the finger of God'. Do you deny the word of God? He says he has a finger. Oh no matter the rest of scripture that places this in context. Focus only on the finger!!

"Then ADONAI gave me the two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God; and on them was written every word ADONAI had said to you from the fire on the mountain the day of the assembly.

There you go, God has a body and there is no oral Torah, all with one stone! Please forgive my frustration in this matter. I just can't believe we are arguing that Messiah was sent ONLY to the Jews. As if the Gentiles lose out, or have to become Jewish.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

sigh... try it this way. Yeshua was sent only to Israel. THEN, Yeshua sent his Jewish disciples into the nations to bear witness about Him. AND to offer the nations the same salvation that was sent to Israel.

Meaning, Messiah was not sent by God into the nations, but sent those who were indwelt with God's Spirit into the nations to redeem them as well.

Messiah was sent to Israel, who in turn sent his followers into all the nations. These followers were filled with the Spirit of God and the indwelling of Yeshua, united as one. And were sent into all the wolrd to witness this miracle of redemption and blessing to Israel, and the world.

What is sad is the dogmatic positions being taken here. Always reminds me of the finger of God. And how with the type of reasoning displayed here one could present that God has a body. I mean, the text states 'the finger of God'. Do you deny the word of God? He says he has a finger. Oh no matter the rest of scripture that places this in context. Focus only on the finger!!

"Then ADONAI gave me the two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God; and on them was written every word ADONAI had said to you from the fire on the mountain the day of the assembly.

There you go, God has a body and there is no oral Torah, all with one stone! Please forgive my frustration in this matter. I just can't believe we are arguing that Messiah was sent ONLY to the Jews. As if the Gentiles lose out, or have to become Jewish.

Beautifully said..^^^

 

[Danoh]

As to the priority as to who the Twelve were to go unto among the nations per Matthew 28, we might do well to consider His instructions to the Twelve in the latter half of Matthew 10, and that, in light of what He had just instructed them in, in the earlier part of Matthew 10.

Also, His Words to them in Matthew 10 as to His return.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[visionary]

I think we are about to enter phase 2 as the gospel has been preached to all the world [almost]. Phase 2 is when judgment comes. It begins at the house of God.

Let us not undo 2000 years of gospel spreading, even if it wasn't the perfect message.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

He sent his disciples to Israel first also. They were continuing John's baptism to the Jew's.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


He sent his disciples to all nations. So Israel first, then the nations.

Christ is the light to the world.

It's not really accurate when saying Christ NEVER sent His disciples to the Gentiles even in the midst of him telling them to go to the Israelites first.

The man in Luke 9 (who was casting out demons in the name of Christ) comes immediately to mind with the way He operated. For we REALLY have no idea of the fullness of what Christ did with others OUTSIDE of the 12 - and we shouldn't be surprised that He did things.....such as telling the 12 initially to not go amongst the Gentiles in ministry and to go to the Jews first....and yet STILL doing extensive ministry amongst the Gentiles.

And there were already Gentiles whom the Lord utilized as missionaries of His Gospel, as they were not allowed to be seen publically with the apostles wherever he went. In example, with the Demoniac he healed - as Jesus sent him away with purpose. ...for as the text says,

“ Mark 5:1

Jesus Restores a Demon-Possessed Man

5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him.19 Jesus did not let him, but said, Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” (Mark 5:19 / Mark 5:1 /Mark 5:20 ).

​

The next time Jesus came to the region, there were some 4,000 others waiting to hear from Him (Mark 7:31/Mark 8.1). ..and the man, as a Gentile, did what he did in reaching OTHER Gentiles where they were at/telling them of Jesus in a way Gentiles could understand.

Surely this man played a key role in creating this second scene by his faithful witness. As an aside (and as mentionend more in-depth in #45 ), you have to wonder - was there any follow up with the man and the Lord? Surely there had to have been some sort of encouragement for him in his work if he struggled - and as the Lord is able to communicate with others beyond speaking one on one/in person, I'd not be surprised if Christ had dialouges with him via the Holy Spirit or messengers while the other apostles were busy doing other things....

But at the end of the day, what's present is the fact that the Lord reached out to this Gentile in the midst of his claims of not going to the Gentiles first - and this again was simply one event amongst several others. The Messiah in His work of deliverance was truly a Light to others....
__________________

 

[visionary]

"First" is the key to understanding there is more to follow.

 

[annier]

sigh... try it this way. Yeshua was sent only to Israel. THEN, Yeshua sent his Jewish disciples into the nations to bear witness about Him. AND to offer the nations the same salvation that was sent to Israel.

Meaning, Messiah was not sent by God into the nations, but sent those who were indwelt with God's Spirit into the nations to redeem them as well.

Messiah was sent to Israel, who in turn sent his followers into all the nations. These followers were filled with the Spirit of God and the indwelling of Yeshua, united as one. And were sent into all the wolrd to witness this miracle of redemption and blessing to Israel, and the world.

Or it could just be put this way then
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. {of this way: Gr. of the way}
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

He did not ask why Paul persecuted his disciples. If Christ considered persection of his disciples the persecution of himself, surely the sending of his disciples was also the sending of himself.

Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

What is sad is the dogmatic positions being taken here. Always reminds me of the finger of God. And how with the type of reasoning displayed here one could present that God has a body. I mean, the text states 'the finger of God'. Do you deny the word of God? He says he has a finger. Oh no matter the rest of scripture that places this in context. Focus only on the finger!!

"Then ADONAI gave me the two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God; and on them was written every word ADONAI had said to you from the fire on the mountain the day of the assembly.

There you go, God has a body and there is no oral Torah, all with one stone! Please forgive my frustration in this matter. I just can't believe we are arguing that Messiah was sent ONLY to the Jews. As if the Gentiles lose out, or have to become Jewish.

It is sad that some discount Paul.

 

[Lulav]

I think it is wonderful that G-d still gives us a choice and right in the work called the Holy Bible. We are not puppets, he loves us enough to want our love to be our choice and has given us all we need to make a decision.

 

[Lulav]

Im glad you know that.. Even as a Christian gentile, I know that the Jews are Gods Holy chosen people, specifically picked to represent him on earth..

We should be protecting our Jewish brothers at all costs..

God blesses those who bless Israel.

That is good to hear, as a Messianic Jew myself, but as Monk says, it's a blessing and a curse.