The Evolution of Morality

[lasthero]

So with your example of Whales catching fish in a Pod, or group, how does that imply moral decision making? How is a dog being loyal making moral decisions? In most cases, a male dog will actually confront its owner to try and become the leader in the household. I've had 5 dogs in my life, and every single one has been male. I've had to put each one in its place several times and show it who is the alpha male (ME). Now if it was using MORALS, surely they wouldn't even consider trying to overthrow me. They would think "he feeds me, loves me, grooms me, keeps me healthy, takes me for walks, so no way should I attack him because he is a good person".

If all we're using is personal anecdotes as evidence, I'll point you, again, to the clip I presented where a dog drags an injured dog across a busy highway to safety, risking his own life in the process.

I suppose I could also link you this interesting paper on the subject.

Wild justice and fair play: cooperation, forgiveness, and morality in animals - Springer

And this one.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

And this one.

Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals - F. B. M. de Waal, Frans B. M. Waal - Google Books

Among others I could show. But heck, why bother - you owned five dogs. Clearly that makes you an expert in the morality of all animals and your opinion is unflappable.

 

[biggles53]

So with your example of Whales catching fish in a Pod, or group, how does that imply moral decision making?

Quite simple.........what benefits the group also benefits the individual.......it's one of the guiding principles of human morality too....

How is a dog being loyal making moral decisions? In most cases, a male dog will actually confront its owner to try and become the leader in the household.

Evidence please....?

I've had 5 dogs in my life, and every single one has been male. I've had to put each one in its place several times and show it who is the alpha male (ME). Now if it was using MORALS, surely they wouldn't even consider trying to overthrow me. They would think "he feeds me, loves me, grooms me, keeps me healthy, takes me for walks, so no way should I attack him because he is a good person".

That animals will behave aggressively when they are poorly treated is no moral judgement.....of the dogs, that is.......

 

[Ginger123]

So the INTENT or PLAN is to ENSURE SURVIVAL as much as possible in any given environment.

No, there is no intent or plan, what about the plants and animals that haven't changed in millions of years like the Alligator? if it's environment doesn't change or changes only slightly it won't change, evolution doesn't care about survival, if the temperature drops for a period the ones to survive are the one that can cope with the drop the best,
if the change is so rapid evolution will not be able to help and everything dies.

Evolution is about change in populations over time, if you can survive you breed if you can't you don't, evolution could not care less.

 

[lasthero]

Evidence please....?

Dude, he owned 5 dogs. Five! That automatically makes him an expert on dog behavior. And we know he treated them as well as he said he did...because he said so.

Or something.

 

[nuttypiglet]

And this whole thing was repeated under controlled conditions, right?

...right?

Oh yes, Pam Reynolds gave permission to have very risky brain surgery a second time, just to prove that she went to the afterlife. GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

[nuttypiglet]

Dude, he owned 5 dogs. Five! That automatically makes him an expert on dog behavior. And we know he treated them as well as he said he did...because he said so.

Or something.

How many Dogs does it take to be an expert? 6? 7? 100? In fact those 5 dogs were just part of my immediate family. While growing up we always had dogs.
Yes I SAY I TREAT DOGS WELL, is there a problem with that?

 

[nuttypiglet]

No, there is no intent or plan, what about the plants and animals that haven't changed in millions of years like the Alligator? if it's environment doesn't change or changes only slightly it won't change, evolution doesn't care about survival, if the temperature drops for a period the ones to survive are the one that can cope with the drop the best,
if the change is so rapid evolution will not be able to help and everything dies.

Evolution is about change in populations over time, if you can survive you breed if you can't you don't, evolution could not care less.

Actually there is some evidence that the environment can influence DNA. So I would suggest that this coding is deliberate. What you are implying is that there cannot be an intent or plan simply because it sometimes fails. Well, live and learn eh!, plans CAN FAIL.

 

[EternalDragon]

No, there is no intent or plan, what about the plants and animals that haven't changed in millions of years like the Alligator? if it's environment doesn't change or changes only slightly it won't change, evolution doesn't care about survival, if the temperature drops for a period the ones to survive are the one that can cope with the drop the best,
if the change is so rapid evolution will not be able to help and everything dies.

Evolution is about change in populations over time, if you can survive you breed if you can't you don't, evolution could not care less.

Excellent example of why the dinosaurs did not survive after walking off the ark and why there are a variety of birds, insects, dogs and lizards, etc.

You are describing the creation, the flood, the short ice age and on up to the present day. You are just placing a word, evolution, in there.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, we don't know that "exactly" at all. The work being done by Krauss (sp.?) et al seems to indicate that the parameters may have a great deal more leeway than was first assumed. I must admit that I am only part way through his work 'A Universe from Nothing', so am not able to comment in detail yet.....this was, however, one of the strong statements he was making in the introductory section of the book...

I believe that even other scientists disagree with him.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What? have you even READ my replies? you must be on a wind up.

I've learned to ignore Davian and his redundant and nonsensical posts. He won't answer questions and then claims it is you that has the problem. You can answer dozens of times and he still claims you don't and then when asked one question he can't answer without refuting his own claims he won't answer. So don't be too concerned about him claiming things about you that you have proven to not be the case.

 

[Golden Yak]

If evolution is responsible for morality, then it hasn't got it right in any way over billions of years has it. Perhaps this is a good way to show how evolution failed.

You're doing what I've been warning Oncedeceived not to do, which is assume that evolution is attempting to produce your specific idea of what morality is. The fact that not every living thing in existence shares your precise notion of morality is not a sign of anything's 'failure.'

Understand my stance - that evolution will give rise to a variety of life, which will exhibit a variety of behavior. Humans rose up from earlier creatures that became social, lived together for mutual benefit, and by necessity evolved behaviors about how best to interact with one-another to ensure stability. Humans invent different ideas and notions and concepts throughout their existence to explain the world and their place in it, and their evolved behavior influences their thinking. The result are ideas of how best to interact with one-another, the basis for the different concepts of morality that many peoples and societies have held over the ages.

Evolution isn't a thing which has intent or plan? Well that depends on your interpretation doesn't it.

It depends on making the correct interpretation, certainly. When I talk about evolution, that's what I mean - a natural process as mindless as gravity. I would say that's usually what anyone who accepts evolution means. 'Mother Nature' is just a turn of phrase.

So the INTENT or PLAN is to ENSURE SURVIVAL as much as possible in any given environment.

In the same way that gravity's 'intent' is to keep everything pinned to the ground as much as it can.

 

[Davian]

I've learned to ignore Davian and his redundant and nonsensical posts.

They are only redundant in that I have to repeat myself in an attempt to get a question answered.

That you find them awkward to answer does not make them nonsensical.

He won't answer questions and then claims it is you that has the problem.

I never refused to answer a question, I just asked that you answer mine first, as a means of making a point.

You can answer dozens of times and he still claims you don't

It was a yes or no question, and you never did provide a yes or a no, did you?

and then when asked one question he can't answer without refuting his own claims he won't answer.

Now, is that an intellectually honest comment?

So don't be too concerned about him claiming things about you that you have proven to not be the case.

And what of the things that I have said that are true?

Carry on. That you have to resort to ignoring me says enough for me.

 

[nuttypiglet]

I've learned to ignore Davian and his redundant and nonsensical posts. He won't answer questions and then claims it is you that has the problem. You can answer dozens of times and he still claims you don't and then when asked one question he can't answer without refuting his own claims he won't answer. So don't be too concerned about him claiming things about you that you have proven to not be the case.

thanks for the advice

 

[HitchSlap]

I've learned to ignore Davian and his redundant and nonsensical posts. He won't answer questions and then claims it is you that has the problem. You can answer dozens of times and he still claims you don't and then when asked one question he can't answer without refuting his own claims he won't answer. So don't be too concerned about him claiming things about you that you have proven to not be the case.

Speaking of answering questions, did you ever answer:

How would you know if you we're wrong?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Speaking of answering questions, did you ever answer:

How would you know if you we're wrong?

In reference to what?

 

[lasthero]

Oh yes, Pam Reynolds gave permission to have very risky brain surgery a second time, just to prove that she went to the afterlife. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Okay.

Then you and your unsourced, untested, unsubstantiated anecdote can take a number and get in line behind Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and all the other random supernatural occurrences that people have had over the years but have zero evidence for.

Please.

"No, of course not. They never do tests. Not many real deeds either. Oh, conversation with your grandmother's shade in a darkened room, the odd love potion or two, but comes a doubter, why, then it's the wrong day, the planets are not in line, the entrails are not favorable, "we don't do tests"!"

 

[lasthero]

How many Dogs does it take to be an expert? 6? 7? 100? In fact those 5 dogs were just part of my immediate family. While growing up we always had dogs.
Yes I SAY I TREAT DOGS WELL, is there a problem with that?

You have your limited experience, dealing with one animal.
/
I have scientists who've actually spent time studying and documenting morality in animals.

The latter is somewhat more, shall we say...robust.

 

[HitchSlap]

In reference to what?

Your religious beliefs. If you were wrong, how would you know?

 

[lasthero]

Actually there is some evidence that the environment can influence DNA.

You have this very bad habit of saying evidence for something exists, then doing nothing to source this evidence, or even elaborating on it. Not to call you a liar - that might very well be true - but it wouldn't kill you to back up your claims every now and then.

 

[lasthero]

Excellent example of why the dinosaurs did not survive after walking off the ark

Why would that be?