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The Evolution of Morality

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Oncedeceived

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WE don't have evidence for the UCA.

We don't have evidence for the what caused the universe to come into existence.

We don't have a naturalistic explanation for the fine tuning of the universe.

We don't have evidence for the intelligence arising from mindless processes.

We don't have evidence to explain consciousness.

These are a few.
 
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bhsmte

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WE don't have evidence for the UCA.

We don't have evidence for the what caused the universe to come into existence.

We don't have a naturalistic explanation for the fine tuning of the universe.

We don't have evidence for the intelligence arising from mindless processes.

We don't have evidence to explain consciousness.

These are a few.

What are you claiming? Are you saying that science is making claims they have evidence for things we are not yet sure of?

What is wrong with not knowing the answer to something right now? Is that bad?

100 years ago, science didn't have the answer to a whole host of things, that they have since come up with an answer. I would imagine this trend will continue and see no reason why it would not.

You see, science has never had to rely on the bible for it's discoveries or to alter it's discoveries based on religion. But, many a religious believer have indeed had to alter their belief, when science has presented boatloads of evidence that answer questions. Hence, why most christians accept evolution today, when it wasn't long ago, most didn't.
 
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Oncedeceived

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What are you claiming? Are you saying that science is making claims they have evidence for things we are not yet sure of?

What is wrong with not knowing the answer to something right now? Is that bad?

You claim it is bad that I don't know something right now. Double standard?

100 years ago, science didn't have the answer to a whole host of things, that they have since come up with an answer. I would imagine this trend will continue and see no reason why it would not.

Yes, and we have had answers and found they were wrong as well.

You see, science has never had to rely on the bible for it's discoveries or to alter it's discoveries based on religion. But, many a religious believer have indeed had to alter their belief, when science has presented boatloads of evidence that answer questions. Hence, why most christians accept evolution today, when it wasn't long ago, most didn't.

We have seen people who believe in God and who have made great strides in Science. Some discoveries from people who believed that the Bible was true so they discovered what they thought the Bible claimed.
 
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bhsmte

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You claim it is bad that I don't know something right now. Double standard?

No, I claim it is bad when christians make up stories, to try and rationalize their beliefs. Science doesn't make up stories, because that scientist would be ruined. Can't say the same for many christians, they just keep making up stories at will.

Yes, and we have had answers and found they were wrong as well.

When science is wrong, it admits the same and is self correcting. This has been proven over time.

We have seen people who believe in God and who have made great strides in Science. Some discoveries from people who believed that the Bible was true so they discovered what they thought the Bible claimed.

Some scientists are christians sure, but they still have to follow the scientific method and produce evidence, or their career will be ruined. Look at Francis Collins, the devout christian who has stated the DNA evidence supports without question, the theory of evolution.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Some scientists are christians sure, but they still have to follow the scientific method and produce evidence, or their career will be ruined. Look at Francis Collins, the devout christian who has stated the DNA evidence supports without question, the theory of evolution.

Of course they have to follow the scientific method, I didn't claim otherwise.
 
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nuttypiglet

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Ummm......let's just assume that those near death experiences actually revealed a contact with a god........how do you know it was yours...?

Good question, but if you study it with an objective mind and look at the data properly, you can soon see that the far majority actually experience the same thing. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but they have learned from that experience and changed their path in life. Muslims have even been revived to announce they have the wrong religion. This is virtually a death sentence to them. Even Doctors, having experienced it for themselves, have come back and said it is real and not illusion.
You know, science once claimed it was a chemical process due to lack of oxygen when close to death. This was 'assumed' because test pilots in a centrifuge or pulling high G's in their aircraft experienced very similar things. The difference is, their brains were active. In theatre, due to the problems associated with Anaesthesia, brain activity is often monitored to ensure pain relief is working, and the patient is sleeping. In cases where people die on the table, they show no brain activity which means they cannot be having illusions. There is far more to it than this though. Patients have recovered to say there are particular objects on hospital roof tops. They are there. They have given accurate descriptions of other patients who entered and left the hospital during the time they were in theatre. Scientifically we cannot ignore such data because it can be proved. We can't simply choose what to believe or not believe when the evidence is supported.
 
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nuttypiglet

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What are you claiming? Are you saying that science is making claims they have evidence for things we are not yet sure of?

What is wrong with not knowing the answer to something right now? Is that bad?

100 years ago, science didn't have the answer to a whole host of things, that they have since come up with an answer. I would imagine this trend will continue and see no reason why it would not.

You see, science has never had to rely on the bible for it's discoveries or to alter it's discoveries based on religion. But, many a religious believer have indeed had to alter their belief, when science has presented boatloads of evidence that answer questions. Hence, why most christians accept evolution today, when it wasn't long ago, most didn't.

Oh it goes much deeper than that. Look at field theory. The laws of the Universe are governed by something which outside of the Universe that we know. Electrons were thought to be the only particles disappearing out of existence and reappearing, but we now know even the nucleus of Atoms do this. The universe is a field of endless possibilities, being governed by something outside it.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Good question, but if you study it with an objective mind and look at the data properly, you can soon see that the far majority actually experience the same thing. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but they have learned from that experience and changed their path in life. Muslims have even been revived to announce they have the wrong religion. This is virtually a death sentence to them. Even Doctors, having experienced it for themselves, have come back and said it is real and not illusion.
You know, science once claimed it was a chemical process due to lack of oxygen when close to death. This was 'assumed' because test pilots in a centrifuge or pulling high G's in their aircraft experienced very similar things. The difference is, their brains were active. In theatre, due to the problems associated with Anaesthesia, brain activity is often monitored to ensure pain relief is working, and the patient is sleeping. In cases where people die on the table, they show no brain activity which means they cannot be having illusions. There is far more to it than this though. Patients have recovered to say there are particular objects on hospital roof tops. They are there. They have given accurate descriptions of other patients who entered and left the hospital during the time they were in theatre. Scientifically we cannot ignore such data because it can be proved. We can't simply choose what to believe or not believe when the evidence is supported.

Absolutely and there is an on going study to confirm the information that is given to those who claim NDE and they are finding that the information that they are given is accurate and could not have been known to the person on the table in the Hospital.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Oh it goes much deeper than that. Look at field theory. The laws of the Universe are governed by something which outside of the Universe that we know. Electrons were thought to be the only particles disappearing out of existence and reappearing, but we now know even the nucleus of Atoms do this. The universe is a field of endless possibilities, being governed by something outside it.

True and it was written in the Bible about Jesus holding the universe together and they now find evidence that something scientists can not detect is holding the universe together.
 
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bhsmte

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Good question, but if you study it with an objective mind and look at the data properly, you can soon see that the far majority actually experience the same thing. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, but they have learned from that experience and changed their path in life. Muslims have even been revived to announce they have the wrong religion. This is virtually a death sentence to them. Even Doctors, having experienced it for themselves, have come back and said it is real and not illusion.
You know, science once claimed it was a chemical process due to lack of oxygen when close to death. This was 'assumed' because test pilots in a centrifuge or pulling high G's in their aircraft experienced very similar things. The difference is, their brains were active. In theatre, due to the problems associated with Anaesthesia, brain activity is often monitored to ensure pain relief is working, and the patient is sleeping. In cases where people die on the table, they show no brain activity which means they cannot be having illusions. There is far more to it than this though. Patients have recovered to say there are particular objects on hospital roof tops. They are there. They have given accurate descriptions of other patients who entered and left the hospital during the time they were in theatre. Scientifically we cannot ignore such data because it can be proved. We can't simply choose what to believe or not believe when the evidence is supported.

Wrong, people with NDE do not experience the same thing. Their experiences tend to follow their personal beliefs.

"One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their own pre-existing belief system." - Jody Long, NDERF.org
 
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bhsmte

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Oh it goes much deeper than that. Look at field theory. The laws of the Universe are governed by something which outside of the Universe that we know. Electrons were thought to be the only particles disappearing out of existence and reappearing, but we now know even the nucleus of Atoms do this. The universe is a field of endless possibilities, being governed by something outside it.

What is your evidence the universe is governed by something outside of it?
 
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lasthero

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but if you study it with an objective mind and look at the data properly, you can soon see that the far majority actually experience the same thing.

Will you be presenting said data?

Muslims have even been revived to announce they have the wrong religion.
Not that I doubt this has ever happened, but you make it sound like something that happens with frequency.

This is virtually a death sentence to them

That would depend on the country, most likely. Not all Muslims in all countries are the sort that kill people simply for falling out of their religion.

Scientifically we cannot ignore such data because it can be proved.

Yes, we can ignore such data, and no, it can't. There's no way to replicate or test for such things, no way to falsify these claims, so they have no basis in science.

We can't simply choose what to believe or not believe when the evidence is supported.

Evidence for what, exactly?
 
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nuttypiglet

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True and it was written in the Bible about Jesus holding the universe together and they now find evidence that something scientists can not detect is holding the universe together.

It kind of amuses me. Everything in existence leads to God and each path Science takes makes them come to that. So science very often has to take a desperate turn and make a new path. No matter how many paths they take, they will all lead to the Creator. Let me give an example. The Universe is governed by so many laws that it is impossible for them to have occurred by chance. We know if any of those laws is altered just slightly, life will not be sustained. This is an embarrassment for science, it states an intelligence. So a new path was required because the 'simple' idea of a God is nauseous for them. What do they invent? the Multiverse theory. This goes totally against science which is supposed to look for the SIMPLE and not complex explanations. The multiverse is HUGELY complex but it STILL leads back to a creator anyway. Where did that pool of Universes come from? Where did the energy for it come from? Where does exist, and who made that place for it to exist? Next we will have the Multi-Multiverse where there are an infinite number of pools. Same questions though. Who made them, where do they exist, who made that place where they exist, where did all that energy come from? It's like watching kids run from the Bogeyman lol. It's GOD for goodness sake, he is to be enjoyed, not run away from.
 
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bhsmte

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It kind of amuses me. Everything in existence leads to God and each path Science takes makes them come to that. So science very often has to take a desperate turn and make a new path. No matter how many paths they take, they will all lead to the Creator. Let me give an example. The Universe is governed by so many laws that it is impossible for them to have occurred by chance. We know if any of those laws is altered just slightly, life will not be sustained. This is an embarrassment for science, it states an intelligence. So a new path was required because the 'simple' idea of a God is nauseous for them. What do they invent? the Multiverse theory. This goes totally against science which is supposed to look for the SIMPLE and not complex explanations. The multiverse is HUGELY complex but it STILL leads back to a creator anyway. Where did that pool of Universes come from? Where did the energy for it come from? Where does exist, and who made that place for it to exist? Next we will have the Multi-Multiverse where there are an infinite number of pools. Same questions though. Who made them, where do they exist, who made that place where they exist, where did all that energy come from? It's like watching kids run from the Bogeyman lol. It's GOD for goodness sake, he is to be enjoyed, not run away from.

How has science concluded that their paths come to God? Please be specific and cite the scientists doing the work that made this claim.
 
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Oncedeceived

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It kind of amuses me. Everything in existence leads to God and each path Science takes makes them come to that. So science very often has to take a desperate turn and make a new path. No matter how many paths they take, they will all lead to the Creator. Let me give an example. The Universe is governed by so many laws that it is impossible for them to have occurred by chance. We know if any of those laws is altered just slightly, life will not be sustained. This is an embarrassment for science, it states an intelligence. So a new path was required because the 'simple' idea of a God is nauseous for them. What do they invent? the Multiverse theory. This goes totally against science which is supposed to look for the SIMPLE and not complex explanations. The multiverse is HUGELY complex but it STILL leads back to a creator anyway. Where did that pool of Universes come from? Where did the energy for it come from? Where does exist, and who made that place for it to exist? Next we will have the Multi-Multiverse where there are an infinite number of pools. Same questions though. Who made them, where do they exist, who made that place where they exist, where did all that energy come from? It's like watching kids run from the Bogeyman lol. It's GOD for goodness sake, he is to be enjoyed, not run away from.

I know right!!!! It amazes me that they are all about evidence and what can be observed and then they bring in invisible universes. Imagine that. ;)
 
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Oncedeceived

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Yes, we can ignore such data, and no, it can't. There's no way to replicate or test for such things, no way to falsify these claims, so they have no basis in science.

What can be tested and replicated in fossil evidence?
 
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lasthero

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We know if any of those laws is altered just slightly, life will not be sustained.

We don't know that at all, actually. We could speculate on such things, but there's no way to actually test and see if life could or could not arise in a universe with different parameters. We have a sample set of exactly one.

You're also assuming that the laws of nature could actually be any different than what they are. There's no reason to assume this.

This is an embarrassment for science, it states an intelligence.

Not really.

So a new path was required because the 'simple' idea of a God is nauseous for them.

Many scientists believe in God just fine.

This goes totally against science which is supposed to look for the SIMPLE and not complex explanations.

God, by definition, is the most complex thing that could ever possibly exist. How is that a 'simple' explanation.

Anyway - no. Science doesn't favor simply explanations over complex ones. It favors natural explanations - because science is the study of the natural world. God, even if he exists, is not natural - he can't be falsified, among other things. Science can make no comment on such a being.
 
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lasthero

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We know if any of those laws is altered just slightly, life will not be sustained.

We don't know that at all, actually. We could speculate on such things, but there's no way to actually test and see if life could or could not arise in a universe with different parameters. We have a sample set of exactly one.

You're also assuming that the laws of nature could actually be any different than what they are. There's no reason to assume this.

This is an embarrassment for science, it states an intelligence.

Not really.

So a new path was required because the 'simple' idea of a God is nauseous for them.

Many scientists believe in God just fine.

This goes totally against science which is supposed to look for the SIMPLE and not complex explanations.

God, by definition, is the most complex thing that could ever possibly exist. How is that a 'simple' explanation.

Anyway - no. Science doesn't favor simply explanations over complex ones. It favors natural explanations - because science is the study of the natural world. God, even if he exists, is not natural - he can't be falsified, among other things. Science can make no comment on such a being.
 
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Oncedeceived

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We don't know that at all, actually. We could speculate on such things, but there's no way to actually test and see if life could or could not arise in a universe with different parameters. We have a sample set of exactly one.

You're also assuming that the laws of nature could actually be any different than what they are. There's no reason to assume this.

We do know exactly that life could not have evolved on earth if certain parameters were even in the smallest degree different. Life on earth in the universe could not have existed if the tuning of many elements were the least bit different.
 
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Davian

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We do know exactly that life could not have evolved on earth if certain parameters were even in the smallest degree different. Life on earth in the universe could not have existed if the tuning of many elements were the least bit different.
What tuning? You don't know if the values of the constants could be different, do you?
 
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