The Evolution of Morality

[Oncedeceived]

Because according to Christians he can do what ever he wants without God being able or willing to stop him,
either God can not stop him or God wants him to do as he wants, which do you think it is?

God has allowed Satan to work within God's parameters.

Does God care but can't stop Satan or could God stop Satan but he doesn't want to? which is it?

God allows some actions and some others He doesn't. He lets Satan work with limits within His plan.

and please no 'God works in mysterious ways' because that's just a cop out.

I guess it is good I didn't take that line. However, that is true.

But back to what we were saying, Satan knows God and still has free will,
how do you explain that?

Why would knowing God require no free will? Satan has his own free will which is being used to try to take God's place.

Here comes another question or no answer at all.

Nope, a question and an answer.

 

[Ginger123]

God has allowed Satan to work within God's parameters.

You know God allows this how and how do you know what God's parameters are?

God allows some actions and some others He doesn't. He lets Satan work with limits within His plan.

Same as above, how do you know?

I guess it is good I didn't take that line. However, that is true.

It is not true, it's what the con men said when they didn't have an answer.

Why would knowing God require no free will? Satan has his own free will which is being used to try to take God's place.

You said that if God revealed himself to us we would lose your free will, Satan knows God exists but still has free will.

It is my opinion Oncedeceived that you are better than your religion, you are lowering your standards in order to believe.

 

[Papias]

Once, did you miss my post on page 35 (post #348)? it laid out some of the evolution of morality routes you asked about, among other things.


Also - yak and biggles started to cover the evolution of a nervous system. While there are some areas that are "mysteries" or not discovered yet, the route taken and many of the intermediates are clear. Have you looked at the basic outline given on wikipedia? Evolution of nervous systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Davian]

Because this is a two way debate, you can't just make claims without backing them up. I find this to be a little troublesome to some of you. You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that you are free from having to provide support to your claims. If I ask for sources you guys claim I am trying to get you to provide me with the information. Sources are necessary in a debate. IF you make a claim it is standard for you to provide the source of your information or at least something that supports it. I would think that this was something you all would understand.




Let me try to make this clearer. God does indeed know what would make you believe in His existence but if He were to do that, HE is using His knowledge of you to "force" you to believe. He wouldn't do that. HE doesn't want to force belief. HE has went to great pains to allow you to think what you want to.

On the subject of sources, what source would you cite for this claim you have just made about what God knows, and what he would of would not do? Does God think like you?

 

[HitchSlap]

God has allowed Satan to work within God's parameters.



God allows some actions and some others He doesn't. He lets Satan work with limits within His plan.

This is immoral behavior, sorry. Your "God" doesn't sound like such a swell guy.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You know God allows this how and how do you know what God's parameters are?

From the Bible.

Same as above, how do you know?

SAme as above.

It is not true, it's what the con men said when they didn't have an answer.

Proof?

You said that if God revealed himself to us we would lose your free will, Satan knows God exists but still has free will.

I didn't say that.

It is my opinion Oncedeceived that you are better than your religion, you are lowering your standards in order to believe.

How am I lowing my standards. I treat others like I wish they would treat me. I don't lie. I don't steal. I don't commit adultery. At one time I put myself first, I did lie, I did steal (although I was only seven at the time) still feel bad about that too . I have never committed adultery though. I was at one time immoral in God's eyes but I didn't think I was so bad.

 

[Oncedeceived]

This is immoral behavior, sorry. Your "God" doesn't sound like such a swell guy.

IF immorality is subjective as you claim, what do you base your judgement upon?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Once, did you miss my post on page 35 (post #348)? it laid out some of the evolution of morality routes you asked about, among other things.

I'm sorry Papias, I haven't had the time to get into your post yet. I was gone this weekend, my mother is not well. So I spent the weekend out of town and without a way to post.

Also - yak and biggles started to cover the evolution of a nervous system. While there are some areas that are "mysteries" or not discovered yet, the route taken and many of the intermediates are clear. Have you looked at the basic outline given on wikipedia? Evolution of nervous systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find this a little troublesome considering we find a full functioning nervous system/digestive system that might be as old as a billion years old and at least 400-500 million years ago without any precursors that I am aware of. I don't see that in the provided link.

 

[HitchSlap]

IF immorality is subjective as you claim, what do you base your judgement upon?

Mine.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Mine.

Well there ya go. What value is yours above God's?

 

[Ellwood3]

Originally Posted by Oncedeceived

God has allowed Satan to work within God's parameters.

God allows some actions and some others He doesn't. He lets Satan work with limits within His plan.


​

Hitchslap responded:

This is immoral behavior, sorry. Your "God" doesn't sound like such a swell guy. __________________
"In matters of religion it is very easy to deceive a man, and very hard to undeceive him." -Pierre Bayle

Atheism... that metaphorical elephant in the proverbial room of human consciousness. Maybe it's time we talk about it.



Immoral behavior? No. Would make us a bunch of robots any other way. There's a bigger picture you miss. The larger good includes the smaller evil for a period of time, then pitches it away for infinity. While keeping all the good.

The alternative was nothing.


Atheism... that metaphorical elephant making very loud noises in the proverbial room of human consciousness where it leaves behind a whole mess of elephant dung. Maybe it's time we talk about it.

 

[HitchSlap]

Well there ya go. What value is yours above God's?

I don't allow pain and suffering it it's within my control, for starters.

 

[HitchSlap]

Originally Posted by Oncedeceived

God has allowed Satan to work within God's parameters.

God allows some actions and some others He doesn't. He lets Satan work with limits within His plan.


​

Hitchslap responded:

This is immoral behavior, sorry. Your "God" doesn't sound like such a swell guy. __________________
"In matters of religion it is very easy to deceive a man, and very hard to undeceive him." -Pierre Bayle

Atheism... that metaphorical elephant in the proverbial room of human consciousness. Maybe it's time we talk about it.



Immoral behavior? No. Would make us a bunch of robots any other way. There's a bigger picture you miss. The larger good includes the smaller evil for a period of time, then pitches it away for infinity. While keeping all the good.

The alternative was nothing.


Atheism... that metaphorical elephant making very loud noises in the proverbial room of human consciousness where it leaves behind a whole mess of elephant dung. Maybe it's time we talk about it.

Let's talk, then.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I don't allow pain and suffering it it's within my control, for starters.

You don't have the ability to determine what pain and suffering is for. Pain is a very useful tool in the human life. It allows us to know what can hurt and what can't. It is an important factor in living.

 

[HitchSlap]

You don't have the ability to determine what pain and suffering is for. Pain is a very useful tool in the human life. It allows us to know what can hurt and what can't. It is an important factor in living.

And what of eight year olds with leukemia?

 

[biggles53]

To begin with, you didn't provide any such knowledge of those who say they "experience" fairies and leprechauns. I'd also like you to note that I said I was surprised to find people who were silent about whether or not their were such things.

Errr.....ummmm......you might like to .....errr.....take a look at post #357 again.....?

 

[biggles53]

Because this is a two way debate, you can't just make claims without backing them up. I find this to be a little troublesome to some of you. You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that you are free from having to provide support to your claims. If I ask for sources you guys claim I am trying to get you to provide me with the information. Sources are necessary in a debate. IF you make a claim it is standard for you to provide the source of your information or at least something that supports it. I would think that this was something you all would understand.

No....you've obviously forgotten what the "why" was in reference to.....

You said that it was necessary to show that morality had developed BEFORE the evolution of intelligence....I want to know how you arrive at that claim.....My contention would be that moral codes, of one kind or another, developed within sentient species as they evolved brains that were capable of holding such concepts. In some species, of course, these would not be 'conscious' concepts, but would be hard-wired into the genetic make-up...

Let me try to make this clearer. God does indeed know what would make you believe in His existence but if He were to do that, HE is using His knowledge of you to "force" you to believe. He wouldn't do that. HE doesn't want to force belief. HE has went to great pains to allow you to think what you want to.

Wrong. Your god (or any imaginary force) could produce evidence of its existence.....doesn't mean I would have to accept it. Moreover, even if I accepted its existence, there is still no "force" acting on me to worship or obey that god.....the story of Satan is illustrative here....So my free will would still be intact.

Also, why does someone like Paul of Tarsus supposedly receive the clear evidence of your god, in order that he might convert, but the rest of us can, literally, go to hell......

 

[biggles53]

Where have I attacked you? Please provide the posts where I personally attacked you.

You will notice that I am very careful to attack the ARGUMENT of the person I am debating.....if I use "stupid", for example, I reference that to an idea, not a person....So when you tell someone that THEY are "transparent", you are necessarily focusing your comment on the individual....

 

[biggles53]

IF immorality is subjective as you claim, what do you base your judgement upon?

The same base that you do, whether you realise it or not......it's called your humanity...!

 

[biggles53]

You don't have the ability to determine what pain and suffering is for. Pain is a very useful tool in the human life. It allows us to know what can hurt and what can't. It is an important factor in living.

I think that's deliberately obtuse.....I'm pretty sure he meant that he would ease the pain and suffering if he could.....Your god doesn't, it allows the suffering creature to continue in that state until it either dies or gets better on its own.....