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What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

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janxharris

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I said that Paul did NOT preach that Christ's resurrection was for the Jewish leadership, the word "leadership" being the operative word.


So not the Jewish leadership, but everyone else?
You ignore that in the previopus chapter Paul had just counted the leadership as "unworthy of eternal life."
Acts 14:45,46
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.​

I don't know why you are so focused on the Jewish leadership. In any case, it was JEWS who did not consider themselves worthy of eternal life.
Paul CLEARLY said that he preached Christ a "stumbling block" to them (1 Corinthians 1:23).
And?
What does it profit your soul to wrench the scriptures from their context? I don't understand what motivates you to do this.
I endeavour not to.
 
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janxharris

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Regarding the Amorites...before I answer, could you just clarify what you said regarding OT non-Israelites? I can't find the post, but you agreed that not all OT gentiles were without hope of salvation. Can you tell me how you think they could be saved?
 
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Hammster

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...On the third day, Christ rose again from the dead, according to the scriptures. What glorious good news this is indeed folks!....(please continue)...
I guess I don't know what you're wanting from me here.
That you accept that Paul would not have been wrong to preach in such a way is staggering. Okay, you probably wouldn't put it so starkly - but I am still wondering how you would put it...so as not to mislead.
I've already answered this question at the beginning of the thread.

Unless you can provide us with a clear statement from Paul that the gospel he preached to believers was under no circumstances to be preached to unbelievers without modification, then you have no case.
I have never made that claim. And it has nothing to do with what I just said. The fact that you didn't even engage in the argument I just made leads me to believe that you are just grasping at straws now.
Paul preached the gospel to unbelievers in Acts and there is only one gospel. Paul never guarded against misleading unbelievers. You make a huge assumption that this is what he did.
No, you are accusing me if making that assumption. Those are two different things.
 
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janxharris

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I guess I don't know what you're wanting from me here.
Would you say to a crowd of unbelievers:

On the third day, Christ rose again from the dead, according to the scriptures. What glorious good news this is indeed folks!

and then not proceed to qualify what you have just said? If you would actually qualify it, how would you word it?
I've already answered this question at the beginning of the thread.
I think you mean this:
Christ died for sinners. You are a sinner. To receive forgiveness for your sins you must repent of your sins believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.

Under limited atonement, what you say is misleading. You give the unbelieving crowd hope when it might be the case for some of them that there is zero hope.
I have never made that claim. And it has nothing to do with what I just said. The fact that you didn't even engage in the argument I just made leads me to believe that you are just grasping at straws now.
If you don't claim that Paul modified the gospel for unbelievers then you have lost your argument. For we are free to take the gospel he mentions in 1 Cor. 15 as the gospel we are to preach to anyone.
No, you are accusing me if making that assumption. Those are two different things.

You are reluctant to engage with the point I am trying to make. If you don't want to continue, please just say.

I am trying to find an example of how Calvinists preach the gospel - can you help me?
 
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Hammster

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Would you say to a crowd of unbelievers:

On the third day, Christ rose again from the dead, according to the scriptures. What glorious good news this is indeed folks!

and then not proceed to qualify what you have just said? If you would actually qualify it, how would you word it?
That's irrelevant since Paul didn't say that to a group of unbelievers. He was writing to believers.
I think you mean this:
Christ died for sinners. You are a sinner. To receive forgiveness for your sins you must repent of your sins believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.

Under limited atonement, what you say is misleading. You give the unbelieving crowd hope when it might be the case for some of them that there is zero hope.
Not at all. If they repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus, they will be saved. How is that false hope?
If you don't claim that Paul modified the gospel for unbelievers then you have lost your argument. For we are free to take the gospel he mentions in 1 Cor. 15 as the gospel we are to preach to anyone.
I'll try this again. If I tell my believing kids that we need to remember that Christ died for our sins, why would they believe that I've changed my view and now believe that Christ died for everyone?
You are reluctant to engage with the point I am trying to make. If you don't want to continue, please just say.
I'm not reluctant at all.
I am trying to find an example of how Calvinists preach the gospel - can you help me?
I think I have.
 
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janxharris

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Possible scenario:

We (you Hammster and I) are walking together down the street. We see a vagrant sitting in a shop doorway and I say to him:
Hi there, you look cold. Can I buy you a sandwich? Yes? Okay, I will, but before I do, I just wanted to share with you, if you don't mind, the good news of Jesus Christ - is that okay with you? (Vagrant nods). Great - well the good news is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and on the third day after his burial, he rose again from the dead. This is, indeed, good news for all mankind because he defeated the curse of death...and that is something we can all relate to don't you think? All he asks is that we put our faith in him so that we might have eternal life. Anyway, I wont bother you further...except to give you this pamphlet which is a reminder of what I have just said - with some details of all the local churches. I will get that sandwich...

Do you correct me, or not?
 
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Hammster

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Possible scenario:

We (you Hammster and I) are walking together down the street. We see a vagrant sitting in a shop doorway and I say to him:
Hi there, you look cold. Can I buy you a sandwich? Yes? Okay, I will, but before I do, I just wanted to share with you, if you don't mind, the good news of Jesus Christ - is that okay with you? (Vagrant nods). Great - well the good news is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and on the third day after his burial, he rose again from the dead. This is, indeed, good news for all mankind because he defeated the curse of death...and that is something we can all relate to don't you think? All he asks is that we put our faith in him so that we might have eternal life. Anyway, I wont bother you further...except to give you this pamphlet which is a reminder of what I have just said - with some details of all the local churches. I will get that sandwich...

Do you correct me, or not?

No, I wouldn't.
 
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Hammster

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Possible scenario:

We (you Hammster and I) are walking together down the street. We see a vagrant sitting in a shop doorway and I say to him:
Hi there, you look cold. Can I buy you a sandwich? Yes? Okay, I will, but before I do, I just wanted to share with you, if you don't mind, the good news of Jesus Christ - is that okay with you? (Vagrant nods). Great - well the good news is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and on the third day after his burial, he rose again from the dead. This is, indeed, good news for all mankind because he defeated the curse of death...and that is something we can all relate to don't you think? All he asks is that we put our faith in him so that we might have eternal life. Anyway, I wont bother you further...except to give you this pamphlet which is a reminder of what I have just said - with some details of all the local churches. I will get that sandwich...

Do you correct me, or not?

Now, let's say that I talk to him, we discuss sin, he understands that he's a sinner, and I tell him that Christ paid the penalty for sin on the cross for those who believe, and if he believes then he can have forgiveness of sin, do you correct me?
 
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guuila

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Regarding the Amorites...before I answer, could you just clarify what you said regarding OT non-Israelites? I can't find the post, but you agreed that not all OT gentiles were without hope of salvation. Can you tell me how you think they could be saved?

You asked me if I thought a non-Israelite born a nanosecond before Jesus was born was without hope. I said no.
 
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guuila

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Possible scenario:

We (you Hammster and I) are walking together down the street. We see a vagrant sitting in a shop doorway and I say to him:
Hi there, you look cold. Can I buy you a sandwich? Yes? Okay, I will, but before I do, I just wanted to share with you, if you don't mind, the good news of Jesus Christ - is that okay with you? (Vagrant nods). Great - well the good news is that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and on the third day after his burial, he rose again from the dead. This is, indeed, good news for all mankind because he defeated the curse of death...and that is something we can all relate to don't you think? All he asks is that we put our faith in him so that we might have eternal life. Anyway, I wont bother you further...except to give you this pamphlet which is a reminder of what I have just said - with some details of all the local churches. I will get that sandwich...

Do you correct me, or not?

Even if Christ did die for him, if God knows he'll never believe, how is it good news to him?
 
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janxharris

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You asked me if I thought a non-Israelite born a nanosecond before Jesus was born was without hope. I said no.

Would you define for me, then, who, of the OT Gentiles, you think were without hope? So far, I understand that those born a nano-second before Jesus was born do have hope.

Thanks.
 
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guuila

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Scenario:

Paul walks into a town. He meets Steve. It happens to be the fact, unknown to either Paul or Steve, that Steve is never going to have faith in Christ and therefore is going to hell. You would have us believe that Paul preaches "Christ died for you so that if you believe you will be saved." Nothing bars Steve from salvation except for the fact that it happens to be the case that he will not believe.

I would suggest to you that the actual gospel which Paul would preach runs more along the lines of "If you believe, Christ died for you so that you will be saved." Of course, again, he's not going to believe, but if he would have believed, Christ would have died for him such that he would be saved.

Both gospel formulations have the same basic elements, arranged such that there is salvation for believers and no hope for those who do not believe. The Gospel is good news for the damned only in the sense that God is objectively good, as are all His works. It is of no use or benefit to the damned in either system. The claim that efficacious redemption differs in any meaningful sense from potential atonement concerning the availability of salvation is false, because in both systems all believers are saved, and none who will not believe may be saved, except if they believe (which they never will, because by definition they belong to the category of "people who will not believe"). I can thus come up with only three basic reasons for why you might be going on and on about this as if your gospel held any more good news for those who will be damned than our formulation does.

1) You may be an open theist and do not believe that the categories of "people who will believe" and "people who will not believe" are actual things. There thus can't be a one-to-one correlation between people who won't believe and people who won't be saved.

2) Despite the fact that within non Open Theist doctrine the set of people who will be saved and the set of people who will believe are identical, you feel on some level that if Christ efficaciously redeemed only the believers and did nothing for the unbelievers, someone in the set of unredeemed people might believe, and then - Oops! No redemption for you. Christ didn't die for you, so even if you believe, you're out of luck. Of course, for this to be the case, Christ would have had to have erred by omitting someone who believed from his efficacion of redemption.

3) You're conflating Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement. You quote that "compacted with himself" line of Calvin's a lot. It would help if you used it in the context of the doctrine it applies to. Reformed Theologians like to write their expressions of doctrines in a manner that flows from point to point, showing how all the points work together within the grand scheme of the divine plan, but it is not the case that the points of Calvinism are interdependent. Nothing prevents a Conditional-Election Resistible-Grace Lose-your-Salvation Arminian from holding to Particular Redemption.

If you want to be taught about Calvinism, there are plenty of qualified teachers on this forum, and if you see something which your philosophical precommitments say is a contradiction, we'll be more than happy to help you understand the Reformed position better. However, you want to debate Calvinism. If so, we will expect that you already understand the position well enough to interact with it, and will not need us to articulate your arguments for you. This is why, for the last half-dozen interactions, when you have asked me to address a contradiction, I have simply observed that you haven't established a contradiction. Sometimes, as I just did above, I can guess about what it is that's making you throw out massive non sequiturs as if they were self evident, but in the first place, it's patronizing, and in the second, I'm not going to do your homework for you.

^^^ This.
 
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janxharris

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Those who God gave justice to. Same as the NT.

Would you please be specific?

Just Israelites and those Gentiles that converted?

No Gentiles that remained outside of Judaism except the ones born as contemporaries of Jesus and having knowledge of him? If so, is one's salvation dependent on one's death-date? If you die a nano-second before the moment that you would have heard the gospel are you damned?
 
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guuila

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Would you please be specific?

Just Israelites and those Gentiles that converted?

No Gentiles that remained outside of Judaism except the ones born as contemporaries of Jesus and having knowledge of him? If so, is one's salvation dependent on one's death-date? If you die a nano-second before the moment that you would have heard the gospel are you damned?

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. (Joel 2:32 ESV)
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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You make valid points, but you do so from the human perspective. If we move into God's realm, then there is no order - it all occurs eternally at once - Christ's atonement for all and our faith / refusal. The atonement for all can be said to exist, but it exists at the same moment as it is limited.

Janxharris,

Can you please further explain your view of the atonement? You give little tidbits but never really draw it out specifically. The reason I ask is because you have given conflicting statements over the course of this thread. The above statement seems to be advocating that Christ's atonement and our faith/refusal of that atonement all happen eternally at once. That's the only idea I can really gather. I don't really understand what that entails, so if you could explain that would be great. Further, as an inconsistency, I don't see how you can deny an order [at least logically] when you say that "Christ's atonement for all and our faith/refusal" of that atonement are both existing at the same moment, and yet, the very statement implies chronology, since we cannot accept/refuse the atonement until it has actually be made.
 
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Hammster

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Would you please be specific?

Just Israelites and those Gentiles that converted?

No Gentiles that remained outside of Judaism except the ones born as contemporaries of Jesus and having knowledge of him? If so, is one's salvation dependent on one's death-date? If you die a nano-second before the moment that you would have heard the gospel are you damned?

What does this have to do with the Amorites? It seems you are deflecting.
 
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janxharris

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And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. (Joel 2:32 ESV)

This is a prophetic scripture that Peter considered to be fulfilled in his day.

Can someone who never met with an Israelite (in OT times) call on the name of the Lord?
 
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