What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

[janxharris]

Why are you bringing up election when we are talking about atonement?

What?

 

[janxharris]

No one believes in a God that didn't die for him. When one believes, it isn't suddenly the case that Jesus died for him - Jesus had always died for him.

Christ efficaciously substituted himself for all believers. This is not that difficult.

You are contradicting yourself.

Again, there is nothing barring any human being, without exception, from being saved if he believes.

No one believes in a God that didn't die for him.

 

[janxharris]

.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

You will find that some who hold strongly to predestination find difficulties with a view that is contrary to theirs. Ongoing debate can become somewhat terse with such people. That happens here on other issues too. I Just accept that is the case, state my beliefs and leave it there. The Christian community is rather diverse.

John
NZ

John,

I understand that, but when we are in conflict with one another, what is the biblical mandate to deal with it? It is not to talk behind one's back as is happening towards me on CF.

How do the Scriptures tell us to deal with it?

Matthew 18:15-17 ESV:

'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

Ephesians 4:31-32 ESV:

'Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you'.

Matthew 18:15 ESV:

'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother'.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Epiphoskei]

You are contradicting yourself.

Not remotely. Nothing bars any human being from being saved if he believes. No one believes in a God who didn't die for him.

We've been over how you can't just say two things are contradictory without demonstrating it.

 

[janxharris]

Not remotely. Nothing bars any human being from being saved if he believes. No one believes in a God who didn't die for him.

We've been over how you can't just say two things are contradictory without demonstrating it.

It is abundantly clear that you contradict yourself. Please go ahead and try to show otherwise.

You say nothing bars any human being from being saved if he believes and yet you also say that Christ did not die for those that God predetermined to not save.

I don't have to explain anything.

 

[Johnnz]

John,

I understand that, but when we are in conflict with one another, what is the biblical mandate to deal with it? It is not to talk behind one's back as is happening towards me on CF.

How do the Scriptures tell us to deal with it?

Matthew 18:15-17 ESV:

'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

Ephesians 4:31-32 ESV:

'Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you'.

Matthew 18:15 ESV:

'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother'.

In Christ,
Oz

Hi again Oz,

There is a difference between fault and different beliefs. We see Paul addressing different beliefs by encouraging mutual acceptance on non essential issues (food, holy days, circumcision for example) even when he had very clear views personally which he vigorously stated. There are significant variations amongst Christians on many matters. We need to learn how to live with that within the unity of our common relationship with Christ. The spite and dogmatic judgments we see here at times is truly sub Christian.

John
NZ

 

[Epiphoskei]

It is abundantly clear that you contradict yourself. Please go ahead and try to show otherwise.

You say nothing bars any human being from being saved if he believes and yet you also say that Christ did not die for those that God predetermined to not save.

I don't have to explain anything.

You could start by explaining exactly what element of particular redemption prevents someone who believes from being saved.

 

[janxharris]

You could start by explaining exactly what element of particular redemption prevents someone who believes from being saved.

Epiphoskei, with respect, you are playing with words.

 

[Epiphoskei]

You're alleging that the particular redemption of believers can bar a person from being saved if he believes. I don't need to defend my consistency, but you do need to defend your line of argument.

 

[Hammster]

That's simple. Thou protesteth too much!
It was you who asked:

That relates to election. That's why I raised it.

It deals with omniscience.

 

[Hammster]

No, I don't follow you at all. Can you elaborate on your statement:

Do you think God knows who will believe?

 

[AndOne]

Question guys - who deserves to go to heaven?

 

[guuila]

Why are you engaging in 'piling on' flaming against me?

Red herring.

 

[guuila]

John,

I understand that, but when we are in conflict with one another, what is the biblical mandate to deal with it? It is not to talk behind one's back as is happening towards me on CF.

How do the Scriptures tell us to deal with it?

Matthew 18:15-17 ESV:

'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector'.

Ephesians 4:31-32 ESV:

'Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you'.

Matthew 18:15 ESV:

'If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother'.

In Christ,
Oz

Talking behind your back would be me sending one of the other guys a private message talking about you. What I said was done in public. Hopefully that clears up your confusion.

 

[guuila]

It is abundantly clear that you contradict yourself. Please go ahead and try to show otherwise.

What's abundantly clear is you like to make assertions, and then put the burden of proof on the other person to prove otherwise.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Talking behind your back would be me sending one of the other guys a private message talking about you. What I said was done in public. Hopefully that clears up your confusion.

Correct. Is a radio talk show host talking behind Obama's back when he says on the public air waves that Obama lied about our being able to keep our insurance policies if we like them? And when the caller says it is this 'piling on'?

 

[guuila]

Correct. Is a radio talk show host talking behind Obama's back when he says on the public air waves that Obama lied about our being able to keep our insurance policies if we like them? And when the caller says it is this 'piling on'?

Nope. It's all there for anyone to see. Maybe it's actually Oz who's flaming by falsely accusing me of talking behind his back. Oz why are you flaming me like this?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Why are you defending something that a moderator has told me is flaming activity on CF? Flaming is not permitted here.

I disagree with the moderator, but I may have to abide by his/her subjective definitions. Talk radio blasts Obama on the public air waves every day. I don't see him accusing people of talking behind his back. He rather criticizes radio for misrepresenting his views.

The Free Dictionary and Thesaurus says that talking behind someone's back occurs when the person doesn't know about it. We are saying things in public forums. No one is talking behind your back. You need to develop some thick skin.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Oz,

You will find that some who hold strongly to predestination find difficulties with a view that is contrary to theirs. Ongoing debate can become somewhat terse with such people. That happens here on other issues too. I Just accept that is the case, state my beliefs and leave it there. The Christian community is rather diverse.

John
NZ

Where have you been? Calvinists are called "heretics" to their faces and behind their backs.