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What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

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Hammster

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Really? Are you and Oz (Oz I'm not talking behind your back. I'm actually hoping you read this - so I'm saying this to you directly) this desperate for other Calvinism haters? You do realize Free Graceism teaches that devil worshippers will go to heaven provided they believed for a minute when they were kids, right? Free Graceism outright denies the doctrine of sanctification, and also denies that a person can lose their salvation (which any true Arminian should have a problem with). But you're just fine sweeping all of that under the rug as long as he also hates Calvinism?

Anyone can chime in on this, but it would seem that the view espoused by FreeGrace2 is almost as different from Arminianism as it is from Calvinism. So why would a self-proclaimed Arminian align himself with someone who 1). doesn't believe that salvation can be lost; and 2) believes it to the extent that if you believes for one minute as a child, you can live a life if debauchery as an adult and still inherit eternal life?

The only reason I can see is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Did Paul preach the gospel to unbelievers? I only ask because it has been contested on this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7787859-33/#post64529689

The only person who has contested this is "The Boxer". What everyone else is contesting is not whether or not the Gospel was preached universally, but whether or not the Gospel contains the idea that Jesus died unilaterally for all men and atoned for all of their sins, and whether that idea should be shared at all. More specifically, whether we should say "Christ died for you" to an unbeliever.
 
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guuila

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Anyone can chime in on this, but it would seem that the view espoused by FreeGrace2 is almost as different from Arminianism as it is from Calvinism. So why would a self-proclaimed Arminian align himself with someone who 1). doesn't believe that salvation can be lost; and 2) believes it to the extent that if you believes for one minute as a child, you can live a life if debauchery as an adult and still inherit eternal life?

The only reason I can see is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

It's amazing to me that folks around here hate Calvinism SO BAD that they'll team up with people who are promoting Antinomianism if they have to. I mean, seriously? Is unconditional election that horrific? Is God's right to have mercy on whom he'll have mercy such a disgusting concept that a theology that teaches a lifestyle of licentiousness makes no difference as long as a person professed faith in Christ as a child is actually preferred? Is God's freedom to save sinners without any consideration to any foreseen action or belief on their part so utterly detestable that it's actually better to embrace a theology that turns the grace of God into nothing more than a get out of hell free card?

I'm pretty confident Arminius himself would be backing the Calvinists in this regard and call out Free Graceism for the hellish doctrine it is, and give a sharp rebuke to you professing Arminians who seem to have no problem with it... yet the synergists around here are just like "You hate Calvinism too?!?! WELCOME BROTHER!!!!!!"
 
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Jack Terrence

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It's been my understanding that preaching is for believers. It's the work if the preacher/teacher. Witnessing is what you do with unbelievers.

I also understand that these terms can be a bit ambiguous. So it won't be a hill I'm dying on.
I believe you are on to something. I am thinking that the apostles preached as apologists to the Jewish leadership to prove from scripture and from reason that Jesus was the Christ. There was no offer of salvation intended. John said that God had judicially blinded them (John 12:39-40). That judgment was irrevokeable.

The apostle's message as apologists brought about the fulfillment of Jesus' word regarding the Holy Spirit coming to "convict" the world of sin. The "world" in the context is definitely the unbelieving Jews (John 15:18-28). I am in agreement with the Reformation Study Bible note which says that the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in 16:8 is NOT intended to bring repentance, but only to prove guilt.

However the apostles preached as evangelists to the people of God and adjusted their message to bring them to faith in Christ. Paul explicitly said that the remission of sins and the promises are for "us their children" (Acts 13:33). That would be the true children of Abraham and of the fathers. The non-children who were present on that occasion knew that they were not the children of the fathers, and so they would NOT have taken Paul's preaching as an offer of salvation to them. Paul said that they had judged themselves "ouk achious" of the message. I have come to take issue with the translation "unworthy" because the two Greek words "ouk" and "achious" together mean "not common."

Thus the expression, "you judge yourselves not common regarding eternal life," must mean that the Jews considered themselves an elite group unlike the commoners, and therefore above the message of life which they deemed was for the common folk. So, those who argue here that all present in Paul's audience would have thought the apostles offered them salvation is fallacious.
 
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Hammster

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It's amazing to me that folks around here hate Calvinism SO BAD that they'll team up with people who are promoting Antinomianism if they have to. I mean, seriously? Is unconditional election that horrific? Is God's right to have mercy on whom he'll have mercy such a disgusting concept that a theology that teaches a lifestyle of licentiousness makes no difference as long as a person professed faith in Christ as a child is actually preferred? Is God's freedom to save sinners without any consideration to any foreseen action or belief on their part so utterly detestable that it's actually better to embrace a theology that turns the grace of God into nothing more than a get out of hell free card?

I'm pretty confident Arminius himself would be backing the Calvinists in this regard and call out Free Graceism for the hellish doctrine it is, and give a sharp rebuke to you professing Arminians who seem to have no problem with it... yet the synergists around here are just like "You hate Calvinism too?!?! WELCOME BROTHER!!!!!!"

The commonality seems to be universal atonement. But even then, they don't agree with what it means.
 
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Epiphoskei

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It does seem that you are suggesting that Paul would only ever say 'Christ died for our sins' if he has already established his audience to be only believers.
I have, by my count, three times now given you a hypothetical context wherein Paul could have said "Christ died for our sins" in a particularly redemptive sense to unbelievers. All it would take is for Paul to have used one exclusive pronoun, when he spoke on behalf of him and the church together as "we." I see no reason to accept that your hypothetical context as necessary while you conversely reject my hypothetical context out of hand.

Paul has mislead us then. As I have already said, Paul says in his letter, '...this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.' I don't know how to make it any clearer.
That line of argumentation is as clear as mud. I know you can't make it any clearer, but that's because your argument is indefensible, not because you've already made it sufficiently clear.

Say I give a lecture to a room full of Americans and Japanese about the Battle of Midway. Years later one of the Americans and I meet again, and he vaguely recalls this lecture, but doesn't remember who won. I want to refresh his memory, so I say, "This is what I taught, that we won." There is no grammatical or morphological or syntactical or metasyntactical justification for either taking that as a direct quote or for insisting that the antecedent of "we" includes anyone more than the first and second person - myself and the American student.

You pointed to Paul's reference to people saved by the Gospel as examples of unbelievers.



Obviously, for you, it is absolutely critical that no preacher should ever imply that unbelievers are included in such a statement as 'Christ died for our sins'. Paul did not share your concerns. Paul does not guard against that which you so relentlessly and vehemently guard against.
As I have stated, repeatedly, I don't have a problem if the Bible includes unbelievers under Christ's death, as that only signifies there is an additional, non-atoning universality within Christ's death. It does not make universal the redemption which is inherent in reconciliation with the father which is inherent in the payment for sins which is effected by the death of Christ.

But moreover, you need to go back and read and at least attempt to interact with what I've written on second person clusivity. You've demanded on several occasions that I explain why Paul isn't guarding against a certain misunderstanding, but I have already established that the human brain is unable to make that misunderstanding, because second person clusivity is too complicated a concept for the language center to process when handling a pronoun. In other words, the concept "not just me, not just you, but them also" needs to be present in a text for reasons beyond pronoun choice. It's not. It's fairly apparent that the reason you see it in this text is that you introduced it to this text because of your precommitment to general atonement.

Also consider, what I'm "vehemently defending against" is the idea that I Cor 15 has general atonement undertones, so it would be silly for me to expect Paul to explicitly preclude general atonement in this passage, since he's said nothing which would indicate it except to those who are already precommitted to it.
 
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OzSpen

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Where does it say he preached?
What is your definition of 'preaching'?

Where is the ministry gift of 'preaching' taught in the NT?

Was Billy Graham out of biblical order when he preached to millions of unbelievers around the world and many of them came to Christ?

Oz
 
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Hammster

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What is your definition of 'preaching'?

Where is the ministry gift of 'preaching' taught in the NT?

Was Billy Graham out of biblical order when he preached to millions of unbelievers around the world and many of them came to Christ?

Oz

Red herring. Doesn't even attempt to answer my question.
 
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OzSpen

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Where does it say he preached?
He preached in Athens to unbelievers on Jesus and the resurrection, according to Acts 17:18.

In the portion I quoted from Acts 17:18, it stated: ' Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection' (ESV).
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The Greek word translated 'preacher' (ESV) is kataggeleus, which is a masculine noun, based on the verb, kataggellw (I have used 'w' to transliterate the omega, to differentiate it from 'o', as a transliteration of omicron, as the regular transliteration of omega is not accepted by the html of CF). What is the meaning of kataggellw?

According to Arndt & Gringrich's Greek lexicon, it means 'proclaim (solemnly) ... the gospel 1 Cor 9:14'. In Acts 4:2; 13:5; 15:36; 17:13 the meaning is 'proclaim in the person of Jesus the resurrection from the dead' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:410).

It is straining at a gnat to make 'proclaim' not mean preaching today as with Billy Graham's preaching/proclaiming the Gospel. It meant 'proclaim' in the Book of Acts, just as it does today.
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'Preaching' (ESV) is the imperfect, middle, indicative verb of euaggelizw What is the meaning of euaggelizw? It means 'bring or announce good news ... mostly specifically of the divine message of salvation, the Messianic proclamation, the gospel ... proclaim, preach' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:317).
According to the 'bible' of Greek dictionaries (lexicons), Arndt & Gingrich, when Paul was in Athens he proclaimed, preached the good news of the Gospel of salvation, according to Acts 17:18.

Therefore, it is incorrect to write that Paul did not preach to unbelievers in Athens. The unbelievers knew he was proclaiming / preaching, but claimed he was 'a preacher of "foreign divinities" - because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection' (Acts 17:18). It is you who is off target by claiming that Paul did not preach to unbelievers. The etymology of the Greek words confounds your understanding.

Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature.[1] Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

[1] This is ‘a translation and adaptation of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Wörtbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur’ (4th rev & augmented edn 1952) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:iii).
 
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OzSpen

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Red herring. Doesn't even attempt to answer my question.
That's a false accusation. It is necessary to obtain your understanding of the meaning of preaching/preached, since you are the one claiming that they did not preach to unbelievers.

Please face up to your responsibility of providing a definition of what you mean by preaching.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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The commonality seems to be universal atonement. But even then, they don't agree with what it means.
What do you mean by 'universal atonement' of those who oppose your view of limited atonement?
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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But was he out of biblical order by preaching to unbelievers (which is the issue being raised here)?

I am just saying what is your point in bringing up Billy Graham? You don't need to specify a person for the example to work. It seems like you are setting up to "dare" me to say Billy Graham was wrong.
 
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OzSpen

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Words in red are the crux of the matter. Fortunately, God is not bound by your understanding of justice. It is not an injustice to withhold something that is not owed.
Doesn't it occur to you that the gate swings both ways? You are the one proclaiming your understanding here. I at least stated it as such.
 
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OzSpen

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Except you're not.

When a man sins, it is just that he is damned. It cannot be caused to be unjust by the absence or presence of a way of satisfying justice other than one's own damnation. It is just for anyone who sins to be damned, and it is unjust for anyone who does not sin to be damned, without qualification.
I find it unjust when all who have committed the same offense - sinned against the Almighty God - and He provides cancellation of the debt/offense only for some who committed the crime and left the rest without this offer and they are left to founder in the mire of their offense.
 
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OzSpen

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How did the Amorites hear the word of Christ?
Red herring!

I asked: 'Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ' (Rom 10:17). How did they hear about this 'word of Christ'?

I was dealing with Romans 10:17 and Paul to the Romans.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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I find it unjust when all who have committed the same offense - sinned against the Almighty God - and He provides cancellation of the debt/offense only for some who committed the crime and left the rest without this offer and they are left to founder in the mire of their offense.

Unjust?

If I go out on the street and give out $1000 to ten people, is it unjust to not give it out to anyone else I come into contact with?

Is the creator not free to do what He wishes with His creation?
 
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Johnnz

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I find the constant intrusion of debate over Calvinism rather worrying. It seems some people virtually have a gospel according to Calvin as their main focus.

These two scriptures seem pretty plain to me and don't need any 'Calvanisms' as a framework for interpretation.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! NIV
I know of no other verse that refines that one to mean "Jesus died only for, and therefore took away, the sins of only those who are elected.

Matt 28:17-20 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." NIV

Insofar as 'all nations' includes those who have never heard about Jesus the Gospel was to be preached to unbelievers.

John
NZ
 
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