• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

Status
Not open for further replies.

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
You said I should tell them that Christ died for our sins. You and I make an "our".

I've engaged.

Your preaching on your own Hammster. Not sure why you think I'm there.

So, you tell the crowd that Christ died for you? Perhaps you should also tell them that Christ didn't die for some of them.

After all, it is the good news, isn't it?
 
Upvote 0
G

guuila

Guest
After all, it is the good news, isn't it?

It is awesome news that Christ didn't suffer and die for people in hell. God does not require double payment. Christ's atonement was sufficient.

I guess you think it's good news that Jesus died for pagans who lived and died before he was ever born? What was Jesus hoping to accomplish by doing that?
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
709
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟140,373.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Yes. But I don't know what you are talking about by applying that to my quote. Why don't you save us a lot of time and explain what you're getting at.
When you talk about me to somebody else, as you did, you are piling on. I was told by another moderator that piling on is considered flaming and borders on being disruptive. Does that not apply to you as well?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Knowing what your theology is, and assuming you would not qualify Christ died for our sins, then you would be misleading them as a preacher.

Not at all.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
The gospel that Paul and his Christian contemporaries preached was the following (or words to that effect):
Christ died for our sins and was buried and rose again on the third day.

When you preach to a crowd of non-believers that 'Christ died for our sins', they don't infer that you are just talking about yourself.

But I would never say "Christ died for our sins" to a group of non-believers. That would be misleading.
 
Upvote 0

Epiphoskei

Senior Veteran
Jul 7, 2007
6,854
689
✟33,057.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Evidently Paul disagrees.
You're misusing "evidently." It is evident that Paul addressed the book to the Corinthian church. It is not evident that he addressed it to a wider audience.


Except that Paul explicitly says, '...I passed on to you...' Paul, at the time he preached to them, passed on the gospel. He told them that Christ died for our sins. That would include those to whom he was addressing.

We've been over this.

Epiphoskei said:
If Paul said to the Corinthians that Paul said "Christ died for our sins," an inclusive "our" would indeed be understood as you would have us understand this passage. If, rather, Paul said that Paul said that Christ died for our sins, the inclusive "our" is only inclusive of Paul and the Corinthian church. An "our" which is inclusive of the audience is only inclusive of the actual audience of the statement it presently occurs in, which in this case is the Corinthian church. It isn't inclusive of other audiences of earlier statements which are being indirectly quoted within the present statement.

Hence, when I say to my wife "I told your sister that our children are at school," even though "our" is contextually inclusive, it is only inclusive of my wife. She is the only second person in the statement which I am presently making, and her sister is the third person, and thus not included in my inclusive "our," even though her sister was the second person of the previous statement which I am indirectly quoting.

I don't want to get bogged down in the technical argument again but it is worth noting at this point that what you're arguing for is in fact a form of second person clusivity.

An exclusive first person plural pronoun consists of the first person and a third person. We denote this 1+3. An inclusive first person plural pronoun consists of the first person and the second person, or 1+2. It is theoretically possible that second person plural pronouns come in clusive varieties as well. We would denote the inclusive as 2+2, signifying that we are only speaking to parties who are all present, and who all qualify as the second person. We would denote the exclusive as 2+3, signifying that we are speaking not merely of the person to whom we are speaking, but also of others not present.

Second person clusive forms do not exist in any natural language. Their total absence from human speech has led to the working hypothesis that the human brain is not even capable of them. If we want to say "you" and imply either the presence or absence of a third party, we can't make that kind of distinction in just one word, pronominally. It has to be spelled out clearly.

What you are suggesting is a use of "our" which is both first and second person inclusive. Ours means mine and yours, and yours means yours and theirs. Technically, 1+2, where 2 = 2+3, in total signifying 1+2+3. That can't happen in one word. The inclusive first person pronoun only necessarily signifies 1+2, and may be applicable also to 3, but doesn't require that, and the human mind itself doesn't feel comfortable tackling that question at all on the basis of a mere pronoun.

Now if there were any mention at all in this text of a group of third persons, you could begin to make the case you're trying to make, but I suspect that had Paul included mention of a third party, the absence of pronominal second person clusivity in human thought would have unsettled him to the point that he would have explicitly written "and this applies to those people also" or "and this doesn't apply to those people." John takes the time to write that in I John 2:2 despite not even referencing a third person up until that point. But you are suggesting that in a passage where no third person has been referenced, we can assume that one is being intended, due to the semantic implications of a non-existent class of pronominal clusivity.


Assertion.
Definition. Doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Your preaching on your own Hammster. Not sure why you think I'm there.

So, you tell the crowd that Christ died for you? Perhaps you should also tell them that Christ didn't die for some of them.

After all, it is the good news, isn't it?

Why would a reprobate care if Christ didn't die for them?
 
Upvote 0

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟35,369.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If you tell them Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will be lost, you tell a wilful falsehood.

If it was Christ’s intention to save all men, how deplorably has he been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood.
He has punished Christ, why should He punish twice for one offence? Christ has died for all His people’s sins, and if thou art in the covenant, thou art one of Christ’s people. Damned thou canst not be. Suffer for thy sins thou canst not. Until God can be unjust, and demand two payments for one debt, He cannot destroy the soul for whom Jesus died.

- Spurgeon
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
On the contrary, he says that he told them "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures", by which he is referring to the Old Testament.

In the OT, the atoning sacrifices were made for God's people alone, (Limited Atonement) not for every single human being in the history of the human race.

So if Christ, the actual atonement, was in accordance with the OT, and this is what Paul preached...you do the math.

Well that is a leap. You would have to provide a bit more than this speculation.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
When you talk about me to somebody else, as you did, you are piling on. I was told by another moderator that piling on is considered flaming and borders on being disruptive. Does that not apply to you as well?

I wasn't flaming. I mentioned you in a statement, and not in an insulting way. And it wasn't anything which we hadn't already discussed.

But you are free to report me if you disagree.
 
Upvote 0

Charis kai Dunamis

χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Dec 4, 2006
3,766
260
Chicago, Illinois
✟27,654.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The gospel that Paul and his Christian contemporaries preached was the following (or words to that effect):
Christ died for our sins and was buried and rose again on the third day.

When you preach to a crowd of non-believers that 'Christ died for our sins', they don't infer that you are just talking about yourself.

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that Christ was delivered up for the sins of humanity, or to redeem the human race, or whatever. But to proclaim it apart from there being a particular remnant, a people set apart, those whom He foreknew, etc. is just plain ignorance.

Further, Acts 2:38 seems to indicate that in order for the forgiveness of sins to be applicable to those present, they must first repent. Atonement necessarily involves removal of sin which implies a negation of guilt i.e. forgiveness. To say that there is an atonement of all people's sin apart from a forgiveness of all people's sin is disjointed. Yet if you do not believe they are separate and you believe that all people have been forgiven of sin, you are at odds with Acts 2:38.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
709
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟140,373.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Why would a reprobate care if Christ didn't die for them?
What did the reprobate of the rich man in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus say, according to Jesus?
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16:27-31 ESV, emphasis added)
Warn them and direct them to the Scriptures. That's what this reprobate said through Jesus' story.

Oz
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
What did the reprobate of the rich man in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus say, according to Jesus?

Warn them and direct them to the Scriptures. That's what this reprobate said through Jesus' story.

Oz
Did the reprobate repent?
 
Upvote 0

janxharris

Veteran
Jun 10, 2010
7,562
55
Essex, UK
Visit site
✟43,897.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
If you tell them Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will be lost, you tell a wilful falsehood.

Not if you tell them that they must believe in him.

If it was Christ’s intention to save all men, how deplorably has he been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood.

Of course, it must be received by faith.

He has punished Christ, why should He punish twice for one offence? Christ has died for all His people’s sins, and if thou art in the covenant, thou art one of Christ’s people. Damned thou canst not be. Suffer for thy sins thou canst not. Until God can be unjust, and demand two payments for one debt, He cannot destroy the soul for whom Jesus died.

- Spurgeon

ditto.

How about you deal with the fact that the gospel Paul preached included this: 'Christ died for our sins'.
 
Upvote 0

Charis kai Dunamis

χάρις καὶ δύναμις
Dec 4, 2006
3,766
260
Chicago, Illinois
✟27,654.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
What did the reprobate of the rich man in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus say, according to Jesus?

Warn them and direct them to the Scriptures. That's what this reprobate said through Jesus' story.

Oz

Interesting that he doesn't repent or ask to come over to the other side.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.