Richard Dawkins Explains Why He Doesn't Debate Young Earth Creationists

[bhsmte]

Many members of the early church gave their lives rather than to deny the miracles that they had seen. Why? If the miracles never happened, why would they subject themselves to torture and death to perpetuate a lie that gained them nothing? Why would Saul of Tarsas give up everything to become the apostle Paul for a Jesus he had never met prior to the crucifixion? Why is it that none of the 5,000 ever came forward to say it was not true; that they were not actually all fed from a few loaves and fishes? How could such a fabrication ever gain traction among highly skeptical, often poorly educated people who believed that the Messiah would set His kingdom on earth?

KW,

Some people are extremely gullible and if their psychology lines up, they can be made to believe anything and they will believe it come hell or high water.

Ever seen the stories of those cults that convince hundreds/thousands of people to commit suicide? We are talking about the same psychological phenomenon.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The point I'm making is that you can't logically say "I was a follower of God and now He doesn't exist." That's what you are saying when you say you were once a Christian and now are an atheist. Either you never knew God, or you did.

I understand your point. I'm saying that it doesn't make much logical sense. You can be a follower in your mind even if not in reality. It isn't the external reality that makes you a Christian or anything else.

Do you make it a practice to be a follower of entities that don't exist?

When I was a Christian, I did follow an entity that didn't exist. It isn't something that I would knowingly do, so of course I don't make a practice of that.

Correct. Either God exists or He doesn't. If you're right I'm wrong. If I'm right you're wrong. We can't both be right.

Obviously. However, you'd still be a Christian if God doesn't exist, just as Muslims are Muslims even though Allah doesn't exist.

Many members of the early church gave their lives rather than to deny the miracles that they had seen. Why? If the miracles never happened, why would they subject themselves to torture and death to perpetuate a lie that gained them nothing?

Several Muslims flew airplanes into buildings. How did that happen if Islam isn't true?

The reality is that people will give their lives for a religious cause even though that religion isn't the true religion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[KWCrazy]

Personal experiences are just that, personal and can be perceived in a way that lines up with your psyche. Or, people can also be outright lying.

So our members are liars? What exactly has it profited any of them to share their experiences?

Lastly, a miracle is the least likely explanation for any event, with all sorts of other logical reasons that could explain the event that supposedly took place.

Then it should be easy to find logical reasons. shouldn't it? Let's taken mine for example, to avoid embarrassing anyone else. You can find it here. Suppose you explain to me logically how this happened.

 

[bhsmte]

So our members are liars? What exactly has it profited any of them to share their experiences?

Then it should be easy to find logical reasons. shouldn't it? Let's taken mine for example, to avoid embarrassing anyone else. You can find it here. Suppose you explain to me logically how this happened.

Being a liar and having your mind convince you of something, are two different things.

 

[KWCrazy]

Being a liar and having your mind convince you of something, are two different things.

Convinced by whom; by what entity and for what reason?

From my own post:
That evening, while sitting near a doorway in front of a long hall that ran the length of an addition we had added to our home, I noticed two shadows traveling the length of the hallway. The light colored paneling made them plainly visible. They were perhaps three feet tall and looked like any other shadows, except that the lighting was overhead and there was nobody who could have cast the shadows. I knew then I was looking at demons. After making a trip up and down the hallway they entered the first bedroom on the right, in which my younger brother lay in his crib. I excitedly told everyone of this, but nobody believed me.

In the interests of time I won't go into all the details of what the baby did over the next couple of weeks. I will say that though he had just said his first words, he was able to whisper what sounded like a long string of profanities. If you put a Bible in his crib he screamed it terror. Finally we had an evangelist my uncle knew perform an exorcism. It wasn't a formal affair like you see in the movies. It was more that he put his hands on the baby's head and commanded by the blood of Jesus Christ that the demons release their hold over the baby and that they depart. The profanity stopped, the strange behavior stopped, and once more the baby didn't know the Bible from any other book.

The possibilities are:
It happened. I'm telling you what happened.
It didn't happen. I'm lying about it.

I'll let you make up your own mind.

 

[bhsmte]

Convinced by whom; by what entity and for what reason?

From my own post:
That evening, while sitting near a doorway in front of a long hall that ran the length of an addition we had added to our home, I noticed two shadows traveling the length of the hallway. The light colored paneling made them plainly visible. They were perhaps three feet tall and looked like any other shadows, except that the lighting was overhead and there was nobody who could have cast the shadows. I knew then I was looking at demons. After making a trip up and down the hallway they entered the first bedroom on the right, in which my younger brother lay in his crib. I excitedly told everyone of this, but nobody believed me.

In the interests of time I won't go into all the details of what the baby did over the next couple of weeks. I will say that though he had just said his first words, he was able to whisper what sounded like a long string of profanities. If you put a Bible in his crib he screamed it terror. Finally we had an evangelist my uncle knew perform an exorcism. It wasn't a formal affair like you see in the movies. It was more that he put his hands on the baby's head and commanded by the blood of Jesus Christ that the demons release their hold over the baby and that they depart. The profanity stopped, the strange behavior stopped, and once more the baby didn't know the Bible from any other book.

The possibilities are:
It happened. I'm telling you what happened.
It didn't happen. I'm lying about it.

I'll let you make up your own mind.

When someone claims something happened and they tell what happened (such as miracles) are they automatically correct?

How about the people who claim the twin towers were brought down by the government with planted explosives? They appear adamant to be right and they claim they have seen absolute evidence, are they correct in what they believe so strongly in?

How about the people who claim they have been abducted by aliens, where physically examined by the aliens and returned back to earth? They swear their personal experience was true and it indeed happened, are they always right?

What about the people who claim God spoke to them and told them to kill someone and they did? Are they always correct in what they claim?

What about all the other religions that make claims about their God and miracles that occurred outside of christianity? Are they correct in what they state?

You see, the mind is a powerful organ and in some people, can play tricks with us if the person has the psychology to allow it to happen.

 

[kellhus]

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."


http://pigeonchess.com/playing-with-pigeons/


Dr. Dawkins is right not to waste his valuable time to delusional religious fundamentalists.

 

[bhsmte]

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."


http://pigeonchess.com/playing-with-pigeons/


Dr. Dawkins is right not to waste his valuable time to delusional religious fundamentalists.

To me, this is what would make a debate with most creationists completely useless.

Most creationists, make zero attempt to understand the theory of evolution and or the evidence to support it. Either they have a psychological block that causes temporary ignorance when presented with evidence, or they simply put their fingers in their ears when presented with anything that goes against their belief.

Furthermore, non-believers, tend to know quite a lot about the bible and can talk intelligently about it. They don't use the same ignorant tactics as creationists do and put their fingers in their ears when creationists start reciting the bible. They just systematically start to show the flaws (which is not very difficult to do) and to most creationists, hearing this and being confronted with significant evidence to support evolution, is the equivalent of listening to someone run their nails down a chalkboard.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

The main reason not to battle a YEC is that according to them they have already won and there is no debate to be had, a debate is an exchange of ideas to express the correctness of eligibility of a statement.

For Young Earth Creationists they only wish to promote their ideology no matter how absurd it is.

 

[madaz]

Most creationists, make zero attempt to understand the theory of evolution and or the evidence to support it.

A example of such can be seen here in this video of Cardinal George Pell who believed not only that genetic mutation is random, but modern humans are evolved from Neanderthals. And he is not even a YEC!



Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal George Pell on Q&A (10-4-2012) - YouTube

 

[redblue22]

what is his attitude about talking with people who hold other beliefs besides yec?

 

[KWCrazy]

When someone claims something happened and they tell what happened (such as miracles) are they automatically correct?

Are they automatically wrong? Can you tell when people are lying to you? Most people don't lie all that convincingly, and if you press for specific details they tend to change unless they are relating something that they actually saw. Is it possible for people to have visions and believe them true? Sure. Does it have any bearing on whether someone is telling the truth about a personal experience? not necessarily.

How about the people who claim the twin towers were brought down by the government with planted explosives?

Most of those have been misled by deliberate lies from people who refuse to believe that terrorists actually inflicted that much damage on America or who simply try to find reasons to blame the government for everything. The fact is, 120,000 PSI heat treated steel loses it's temper when heated and reverts to 50,000 PSI steel, which will literally explode under the strain. Most of the "911 Truthers" deny this obvious fact, though.

They appear adamant to be right and they claim they have seen absolute evidence, are they correct in what they believe so strongly in?

No, because they deny the basic facts in favor of a grand conspiracy which would have required the cooperation of hundreds of people; NONE of which have wanted to come forward and get rich with a book deal. There are no well kept secrets in Washington.

How about the people who claim they have been abducted by aliens, where physically examined by the aliens and returned back to earth? They swear their personal experience was true and it indeed happened, are they always right?

Has anyone made the claim that they are always right, or are you wrestling with straw men again? Are you willing to state categorically that there is no life anywhere else in the universe? If so, you have more in common with religious conservatives than with scientists.

What about the people who claim God spoke to them and told them to kill someone and they did?

Do you believe that people sometimes hear voices? I've met people who have. Some of them have mental disorders, and some hear real demonic voices telling them things. Obviously, God never tells people to murder anyone (though He did with the ancient enemies of Israel).

As a case in point, a paranoid schizophrenic one time asked my mother, who was a mental health worker, to pray for her and make the voices go away. She did, though it was against stated policy. The voices went away. The woman was still schizophrenic, but she didn't hear voices any more.

In another case a man who claimed to be a Vietnam veteran (No proof was ever given) acted as sane as anyone when he was on his medication. When he stopped taking it, he became delusional and violent. I personally met this man one day. He was friendly, respectful and polite. About a year later he murdered his girlfriend and four other members of her family. he claimed he was a hit man for God. By the way, he wasn't.

What about all the other religions that make claims about their God and miracles that occurred outside of christianity? Are they correct in what they state?

Nope. Others have tried to get their gods to perform miracles for almost the entirety of man's existence, and yet they don't seem to be able to do so; not ever.

 

[kellhus]

what is his attitude about talking with people who hold other beliefs besides yec?

I'd imagine he's fine with that. In all honesty, YEC is such a lunatic fringe theory now, in 2013, that there's no real need to give it any attention. There's so much evidence of evolution now that it's time to stop indulging the theatrics of conspiracy theorists and move on as a society and let YEC sink into just another crank, oddball concept.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

How about the people who claim the twin towers were brought down by the government with planted explosives? They appear adamant to be right and they claim they have seen absolute evidence, are they correct in what they believe so strongly in?

Government did not take down the Twin Towers, Pippin took down the first and Frodo the second. This was revealed in major release over a decade ago. You seriously need to spend more time at your local cinema

 

[bhsmte]

Are they automatically wrong? Can you tell when people are lying to you? Most people don't lie all that convincingly, and if you press for specific details they tend to change unless they are relating something that they actually saw. Is it possible for people to have visions and believe them true? Sure. Does it have any bearing on whether someone is telling the truth about a personal experience? not necessarily.

Most of those have been misled by deliberate lies from people who refuse to believe that terrorists actually inflicted that much damage on America or who simply try to find reasons to blame the government for everything. The fact is, 120,000 PSI heat treated steel loses it's temper when heated and reverts to 50,000 PSI steel, which will literally explode under the strain. Most of the "911 Truthers" deny this obvious fact, though.

No, because they deny the basic facts in favor of a grand conspiracy which would have required the cooperation of hundreds of people; NONE of which have wanted to come forward and get rich with a book deal. There are no well kept secrets in Washington.

Has anyone made the claim that they are always right, or are you wrestling with straw men again? Are you willing to state categorically that there is no life anywhere else in the universe? If so, you have more in common with religious conservatives than with scientists.


Do you believe that people sometimes hear voices? I've met people who have. Some of them have mental disorders, and some hear real demonic voices telling them things. Obviously, God never tells people to murder anyone (though He did with the ancient enemies of Israel).

As a case in point, a paranoid schizophrenic one time asked my mother, who was a mental health worker, to pray for her and make the voices go away. She did, though it was against stated policy. The voices went away. The woman was still schizophrenic, but she didn't hear voices any more.

In another case a man who claimed to be a Vietnam veteran (No proof was ever given) acted as sane as anyone when he was on his medication. When he stopped taking it, he became delusional and violent. I personally met this man one day. He was friendly, respectful and polite. About a year later he murdered his girlfriend and four other members of her family. he claimed he was a hit man for God. By the way, he wasn't.

Nope. Others have tried to get their gods to perform miracles for almost the entirety of man's existence, and yet they don't seem to be able to do so; not ever.

KW,

Do you believe it is possible for a person to have experiences that seem very real to them, but were generated by their mind and are not reality?

Simple yes or no will do.

 

[KWCrazy]

KW,
Do you believe it is possible for a person to have experiences that seem very real to them, but were generated by their mind and are not reality?
Simple yes or no will do.

If you're going to pose the question and frame the answer, what do you need me for? You're asking if something is possible so you can then frame it as an absolute; delusion is possible in one case and so is the fact of every case. Sorry, not buying into it.

The fact is, 35% of Americans say they have seen or experienced a miracle. In rough numbers, that's 108,000,000 people. If 90% of them are mistaken, that still leaves over 10,000,000 people who have seen something that can't be explained by science. Your insinuation that all of them are delusional is nothing more than a childish denial. Among the very religious to whom God has revealed Himself, the number of people who have experienced miracles swells to 59%. In other words, for every two devout Christians you talk with, one knows by first hand that you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

 

[kellhus]

If you're going to pose the question and frame the answer, what do you need me for? You're asking if something is possible so you can then frame it as an absolute; delusion is possible in one case and so is the fact of every case. Sorry, not buying into it.

The fact is, 35% of Americans say they have seen or experienced a miracle. In rough numbers, that's 108,000,000 people. If 90% of them are

10% is hardly that exclusive of a statistic. The most generous alpha level used in statistical analysis is half that. And just because people claim they experienced a miracle, doesn't mean they've actually experienced anything that "can't be explained by science". You are relying on silly, purely anecdotal evidence, I'm afraid.

 

[KWCrazy]

In all honesty, YEC is such a lunatic fringe theory now, in 2013, that there's no real need to give it any attention.

Actually, you're still in the minority.

 

[kellhus]

Actually, you're still in the minority.

Hey look! A bar graph! I learned how to make those in Excel in elementary school too!

Here's a random graph! It means YEC is stupid! See? I can also post totally random and unattributed graphs and make totally unsupported claims just like you!

 

[KWCrazy]

[/COLOR]10% is hardly that exclusive of a statistic. The most generous alpha level used in statistical analysis is half that. And just because people claim they experienced a miracle, doesn't mean they've actually experienced anything that "can't be explained by science". You are relying on silly, purely anecdotal evidence, I'm afraid.

I posted a link to the miracles thread, how come you haven't demonstrated any of them to be explainable by science? I posted a personal experience, how come you haven't explained that one by science? Miracles by definition violate the laws of science. It's pure ignorance to think a true miracle could be explained my science. If your contention is that miracles do not happen, there are over a hundred million people who would tell you you don't know what you're talking about.

I'll give you another one; witnessed by at least 15 people. A small church was behind on their building fund and was facing a deadline from the bank. They prayed that somehow they could meet their obligation. The night before the deadline they counted all their contributions and found they were way short of what was needed. When the re-count came in one dollar higher, they re-counted a third time... and a fourth. Every time they re-counted they had a dollar more than the last count. They continued to count again and again; each count yielding exactly one dollar more than the previous count. When the final count showed them reaching their goal, they gave thanks to God and went home. They paid the note the next morning in cash.

I was not there, but I knew the pastor and I knew the people who were there. Like any gathering, they were a mixture of faithful to struggling and everywhere in between. This made firm believers of them all. Each of them knew that they had experienced a miracle. Without fail, every time they counted they were one dollar closer to what they needed. Nobody put any money in. Nothing changed. Explain that scientifically.