If LFW is true, how does sanctification work?

[Skala]

I have already said otherwise

I'm not, as you know, a Universalist.

Why not? Universalism would fit you perfectly.

Except that the mercy of God under Calvinism is selective and goes against one's sense of fairness.

The mercy of God is selective in Janxism too. He only gives mercy to believers, when he could have given it to unbelievers, too. So even in Janxism, he gives mercy to some, but not others.

 

[janxharris]

Why not? Universalism would fit you perfectly.



The mercy of God is selective in Janxism too. He only gives mercy to believers, when he could have given it to unbelievers, too. So even in Janxism, he gives mercy to some, but not others.

Only if belief isn't a possibility for some men. Scripture says otherwise...inexorably so.

 

[guuila]

Only if belief isn't a possibility for some men. Scripture says otherwise...inexorably so.

Jesus explicitly says the reason Judas didn't believe (as far as God counts believing) is because it was not granted to him to believe. Why do you reject that? Don't you want to believe Jesus?

 

[Skala]

Only if belief isn't a possibility for some men. Scripture says otherwise...inexorably so.

But you have to admit that God could have saved all men, and not just believers, if he wanted to.

Right?

 

[janxharris]

But you have to admit that God could have saved all men, and not just believers, if he wanted to.

Right?

But that would infringe free will and we would be back to a creation without any real worth.

That's what I feel anyway.

Night all.
zzz

 

[guuila]

But that would infringe free will and we would be back to a creation without any real worth.

Human free will. The most important thing in the universe since Adam.

 

[Hammster]

But that would infringe free will and we would be back to a creation without any real worth.

That's what I feel anyway.

Night all.
zzz

So really, God can't save who He wants. He's beholden to men's free will.

 

[janxharris]

So really, God can't save who He wants. He's beholden to men's free will.

So why bother with creation in the first place? What beauty, what value is there in such a creation?

 

[janxharris]

Human free will. The most important thing in the universe since Adam.

What value do you give to God's creation if everything we choose is predetermined?

 

[Near]

What value do you give to God's creation if everything we choose is predetermined?

What's wrong with determinism?

 

[janxharris]

What's wrong with determinism?

It entails a view of reality where everything we do is all that we could ever do; that no deviation from the path set from the beginning is possible. It makes one feel worthless.

 

[crimsonleaf]

I've heard it used innumerable times.

Then you've been listening to some very dumb people.

 

[Near]

It entails a view of reality where everything we do is all that we could ever do; that no deviation from the path set from the beginning is possible. It makes one feel worthless.

I dont feel worthless.
I'm somewhat of a determinist myself.

Everything we do, is all we could do, whether it be one thing or another I do not know yet what I will freely choose.

God determines all events and freewill actions to take place. He is in control of all.

God forsees the freewill actions of man, and he determines them to come to pass, as without him nothing would come to pass, he determines that that pass. He is in control, determining all, yet man retains freewill in the sense that, for example, I choose earlier to drink orange juice, of my own freewill, and God who foresaw that determined of his own will to actualize such to occur.

As we can see, while God determines everything and nothing goes under his knowledge, we retain freewill, the origin of our choices is us, not God, yet he determines our freewill to come about.

Besides, even you must admit, what you have done, that is what you did, you cannot change it. What you will do is what you will do, you cannot change what you will do, but you can change what you will to do. If you choose to use the bathroom later on, you will choose that, and there is nothing that can change that on the condition that you will choose to use the bathroom.

Not so pointless.

 

[crimsonleaf]

It entails a view of reality where everything we do is all that we could ever do; that no deviation from the path set from the beginning is possible. It makes one feel worthless.

You feel worthless because your understanding of determinism makes you feel God is in control. Wow.

Welcome back Janx, glad to see that nothing has changed and that you still feel God is obligated to save everyone (or He's unfair) and that His sovereignty makes you feel worthless.

One day, when you're God it'll be different.

 

[Near]

Btw anti-determinists, Im interested on how you view my version of determinism with free-will...


God is in control.

 

[janxharris]

I dont feel worthless.
I'm somewhat of a determinist myself.

Everything we do, is all we could do, whether it be one thing or another I do not know yet what I will freely choose.

God determines all events and freewill actions to take place. He is in control of all.

God forsees the freewill actions of man, and he determines them to come to pass, as without him nothing would come to pass, he determines that that pass. He is in control, determining all, yet man retains freewill in the sense that, for example, I choose earlier to drink orange juice, of my own freewill, and God who foresaw that determined of his own will to actualize such to occur.

As we can see, while God determines everything and nothing goes under his knowledge, we retain freewill, the origin of our choices is us, not God, yet he determines our freewill to come about.

Besides, even you must admit, what you have done, that is what you did, you cannot change it. What you will do is what you will do, you cannot change what you will do, but you can change what you will to do. If you choose to use the bathroom later on, you will choose that, and there is nothing that can change that on the condition that you will choose to use the bathroom.

Not so pointless.

Determinism, both soft and hard, says that we cannot do anything but what we actually chose to do. That being the case, all that occurs in our lives, every moment, from the most recent going back to our very point of creation has God standing at the helm.

 

[Near]

Determinism, both soft and hard, says that we cannot do anything but what we actually chose to do. That being the case, all that occurs in our lives, every moment, from the most recent going back to our very point of creation has God standing at the helm.

...

We CANT do anything but what we actually chose to do.

That is the reality of this existence.

If you will choose to buy coffee, you will.

If you choose not to, you wont.

That is purely logical.

This is illogical: if you choose to buy coffee, you will not choose to buy coffee
And if you dont choose to buy coffee you will choose to but coffee.

Yes, God is at the helm... Who determined to actualize whatever happens, planets moving, etc... Including man's freewill. He foreknows man's choices out of his freewill, and God, who is at the helm, in control, actualizes reality.

 

[janxharris]

You feel worthless because your understanding of determinism makes you feel God is in control. Wow.

Welcome back Janx, glad to see that nothing has changed and that you still feel God is obligated to save everyone (or He's unfair) and that His sovereignty makes you feel worthless.

One day, when you're God it'll be different.

Hello crimsonleaf.

I have never believed that God is obligated to save everyone.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Hello crimsonleaf.

I have never believed that God is obligated to save everyone.

But you do believe that it's unfair that he chooses to save just some, right?

 

[janxharris]

...

We CANT do anything but what we actually chose to do.

That is the reality of this existence.

If you will choose to buy coffee, you will.

If you choose not to, you wont.

That is purely logical.

This is illogical: if you choose to buy coffee, you will not choose to buy coffee
And if you dont choose to buy coffee you will choose to but coffee.

Yes, God is at the helm... Who determined to actualize whatever happens, planets moving, etc... Including man's freewill. He foreknows man's choices out of his freewill, and God, who is at the helm, in control, actualizes reality.

God foreknows rather than foredetermines.

1 Samuel 23:7-13
Saul was told that David had gone to Keilah, and he said, “God has delivered him into my hands, for David has imprisoned himself by entering a town with gates and bars.” And Saul called up all his forces for battle, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men. When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod.” David said, “Lord, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will.” Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will.” So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.