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Why do YE Creationists insist on a simplistic literal reading of the bible?

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Loudmouth

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How about one example and dont forgeet to provide the biological evidence, not just some statement from som evo saying it happened.

ERV's are just that evidence:

Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 10^9 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14).
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

We share over 200,000 ERV's with chimps at the same position in our genome while only differing by a relative handful. This is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that we share a common ancestor with other apes.

Speciation, like natural section is not a mechanism for a biological change.

Yes, it is. Speciation causes divergence due to the accumulation of lineage specific mutations.


If it is based on facts, it is no longer a theory, it is a law.

Theories are based on laws. Theories explain laws. Laws never become theories, and theories never become laws.


As we find new facts we refine our theories to accomodate those facts.
 
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frogman2x

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ERV's are just that evidence:

Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 10^9 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14).
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences


The fact that different species have a common trait(eyes for example) does not indicate they had a common ancestor. If your guess is right about the first life form, how did it get bones, legs, eye a complex reproductive system?

We share over 200,000 ERV's with chimps at the same position in our genome while only differing by a relative handful. This is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that we share a common ancestor with other apes.

And yet a human never produces a chimp and a chimp never produces a human. Why is that?


If that was true sometime in the process an ape would have a human unless you are going to say evolution has stopped.

There is no biological way to link humans and apes. That is a necessary evo invention to give tghe faithful hope that they have not been duped.

Yes, it is. Speciation causes divergence due to the accumulation of lineage specific mutations.

How can the inabiliy to reproduce be a mechanism for change? Mutations dfo not add characteristics, they only alter the characteristic they would have gotten from the gene if the mutation had not occured. The albino was going to get skin. The mutaion altered the skin he got.


Theories are based on laws. Theories explain laws.

You have it backwards. Laws come from proven theories. Once it has been proven it is no longer a theory. What is not proven cannot explain what has been proven.


Laws never become theories, and theories never become laws.

You ae half right. Gravity used to be a theory, now we talk about the laws of gravity.


As we find new facts we refine our theories to accomodate those facts.

Right and if these new facts are eventually proven, then the theory becomes a law.

kermit
 
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AV1611VET

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Popular use of the words and scientific definitions of them are quite different.

"Fact" is not a scientifically defined term, but "observation" and "data point" are terms that a scientist will often colloquially call facts.

You make an observation that applying force to an object causes it to move. After making several similar observations, you begin measuring how the objects move. These measured observations become "data points."

A "law" is an equation. You plot your data points on a graph and notice that if you double the force, the acceleration of the object doubles. If you double the weight (actually, the mass) of the object, the acceleration is halved. The plot yeilds the equation F = ma (Newton's second law of motion)

Next, you realize that there are several laws that use the same units (mass, acceleration, force, time, distance velocity, etc.) and you consider how they affect one another. What you develop is what many popularly call a "theory," but this is not how scientists use the word. Scientist call this stage an "hypothesis."

The next step is to test the hypothesis. There are two kinds of tests falsification and prediction. In falsification tests, you look for things that the hypothesis claims are true and show that they are false. (Spontaneous Generation was falsified by showing that maggots could not "generate" from rotting meat, if flies were not allowed to land on the meat and deposit their eggs.) Alternatively, you can look for things the hypothesis are false, and show they are true. (The hypothesis that all swans are white was falsified when, after the discovery of Australia, the firs black swans were found.)

Prediction tests are almost the opposite of falsification tests. In these you want your results to agree with the hypothesis. Usually these tests are conducted in areas in which scientific measured observations have not before been made, and the result predicted by the hypothesis is different from that predicted by current accepted thought on the issue. (There is also a sort of "after the fact" form of the prediction test in which the new hypothesis "predicts" a different result than the current thought, and explains a previously observered "anomaly" (a data point that does not fit with current thought). Relativity predicted, and later observations confirmed that (among other things) stars and other massive bodies would act like "gravity lenses," bending and focussing light, time slows down for those traveling in a reference frame different from ours (for example, on a spaceship approaching the speed of light, or even a significant fraction of that speed), matter can be converted into energy, and vice versa. It also explained the anomalous results of the Michelson-Morley experiment and the anomaly of the wobble in Mercury's orbit.

Once it passes enough falsification and prediction tests, the hypothesis becomes "well-established. It has been "proven." Only then is it called a "theory."

However, it has been "proven" inductively, and not deductively. That means that there is always a chance that it can be shown to be inadequate. New anomalies can turn up, requiring a better hypothesis. Any new hypothesis, however, will have to incorporate all of the laws (equations) that have been explained by the current theory, including not only the original laws, but also the new laws found as a part of testing the current theory.
Reminds me of this song, for some reason:

[youtube]7AvG6q_iTcA[/youtube]
 
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frogman2x

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How does that follow? And you do realize there are other methods besides dating rocks that also return ages older than a literal interpretation of the Bible allows, right?



Science doesn't deal in proof. Nothing is 'proven' - that's an area for mathematics.

You have too low view of real science. Of course science proves things. It hs proven that thee is moe than one blood type. It can prove
what type you have. It can prove that if yu get the wrong type, you will die.


Evolution is as testable, observable, repeatable as any other theory, such a gravity theory, atomic theory, and cell theory.

Not true. What evolution preaches has never been observed or repeated and is not testable. Give me one, just one exampel tha thas been observed.

The idea that it only counts as observation if you're seeing it with your own two eyes is just idiotic creationist claptrap.

Evidentglay you do not udnerstand what "observed" means.

You can observe evidence. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean you can't make a comment on it.

It it happend a million years ago, you cannot observe it.


It's a ridiculous distinction that I wish people would stop making. And yeah, evolution is a theory on origins. A theory is the highest form of knowledge you can get in science, despite your idiotic claims to the contrary. That's not an insult.

Laws are the hightest form of knowledge. Until a heory has been proven, it does not have any knowledge.

People saying they've experienced miracles gives no indication of anything, let alone that God is real.

People who say evoluion is a proven factgive no indication of how it is biologically possible.

kermit
 
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Loudmouth

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The fact that different species have a common trait(eyes for example) does not indicate they had a common ancestor.

Yes, it does.

If your guess is right about the first life form, how did it get bones, legs, eye a complex reproductive system?

The first life form did not have bones, legs, eyes, or a complex reproductive system. The majority of life on the Earth does not have those features.

And yet a human never produces a chimp and a chimp never produces a human. Why is that?

Because they evolved. That's the whole point. They diverged and became different because different mutations accumulated in each lineage. It's called evolution.

If that was true sometime in the process an ape would have a human unless you are going to say evolution has stopped.

Humans are apes.

There is no biological way to link humans and apes.

They are linked by both DNA and transitional fossils. How is that not biological?

Mutations dfo not add characteristics, they only alter the characteristic they would have gotten from the gene if the mutation had not occured. The albino was going to get skin. The mutaion altered the skin he got.

Please provide evidence that mutations do not add characteristics

You have it backwards. Laws come from proven theories.

Completely false. Theories explain laws. The theory of relativity explains the laws of gravitation, as one example. The laws of gravitiation came before the theory of evolution.

Once it has been proven it is no longer a theory.

Facts are what is proven. Theories explain those facts.

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
You ae half right. Gravity used to be a theory, now we talk about the laws of gravity.

Gravity is still a theory, and the theory explains the laws of gravity. Relativity is not a fact or a law. It is a theory. Quantum gravity is still a theory, not a law or a fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity

Right and if these new facts are eventually proven, then the theory becomes a law.

Facts are what is proven. Facts are the world's data. Theories are used to tie the data together into a cohesive explanation.
 
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lasthero

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And yet a human never produces a chimp and a chimp never produces a human. Why is that?

No wolf ever gave birth to a domesticated dog, either. Evolution never proposes that a chimp gave birth to a modern human, or that a modern human should give birth to a chimp. If this happened, it would falsify evolution.

You have it backwards. Laws come from proven theories

NO.

This is a scientific law.

Scientific law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a scientific theory.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing in science is ever 'proven'. Even the most backwater intelligent design textbook would explain these simple scientific terms. You can't just make up your own definitions and argue them; either use the words as they're supposed to be used or don't use them at all.

Gravity used to be a theory, now we talk about the laws of gravity.

This is the law of gravity.

Every point mass in the universe attracts every other point mass with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

This is the theory.


It never graduated into a theory. That never happened. It's still a theory. It will always be a theory. There's nothing about theories. Period.

. A theory in science is not a guess, speculation, or suggestion, which is the popular definition of the word "theory." A scientific theory is a unifying and self-consistent explanation of fundamental natural processes or phenomena that is totally constructed of corroborated hypotheses. A theory, therefore, is built of reliable knowledge--built of scientific facts--and its purpose is to explain major natural processes or phenomena. Scientific theories explain nature by unifying many once-unrelated facts or corroborated hypotheses; they are the strongest and most truthful explanations of how the universe, nature, and life came to be, how they work, what they are made of, and what will become of them. Since humans are living organisms and are part of the universe, science explains all of these things about ourselves.

http://www.geo.sunysb.edu/esp/files...o.sunysb.edu/esp/files/scientific-method.html

See? Do you see? Does that make sense? Are the gears turning? This is, like, the fifth time I've seen someone on this site completely mistake what a theory is today.
 
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lasthero

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And yet a human never produces a chimp and a chimp never produces a human. Why is that?

No wolf ever gave birth to a domesticated dog, either. Evolution never proposes that a chimp gave birth to a modern human, or that a modern human should give birth to a chimp. If this happened, it would falsify evolution.

You have it backwards. Laws come from proven theories

NO.

This is a scientific law.

Scientific law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a scientific theory.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing in science is ever 'proven'. Even the most backwater intelligent design textbook would explain these simple scientific terms. You can't just make up your own definitions and argue them; either use the words as they're supposed to be used or don't use them at all.

Gravity used to be a theory, now we talk about the laws of gravity.

This is the law of gravity.

Every point mass in the universe attracts every other point mass with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

This is the theory.


It never graduated into a theory. That never happened. It's still a theory. It will always be a theory. There's nothing about theories. Period.

. A theory in science is not a guess, speculation, or suggestion, which is the popular definition of the word "theory." A scientific theory is a unifying and self-consistent explanation of fundamental natural processes or phenomena that is totally constructed of corroborated hypotheses. A theory, therefore, is built of reliable knowledge--built of scientific facts--and its purpose is to explain major natural processes or phenomena. Scientific theories explain nature by unifying many once-unrelated facts or corroborated hypotheses; they are the strongest and most truthful explanations of how the universe, nature, and life came to be, how they work, what they are made of, and what will become of them. Since humans are living organisms and are part of the universe, science explains all of these things about ourselves.

http://www.geo.sunysb.edu/esp/files...o.sunysb.edu/esp/files/scientific-method.html

See? Do you see? Does that make sense? Are the gears turning? This is, like, the fifth time I've seen someone on this site completely mistake what a theory is today.
 
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Split Rock

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How about one example and dont forgeet to provide the biological evidence, not just some statement from som evo saying it happened.
The best evidence in my opinion is the fact that all life on earth fits into the twin nested hierarchy. First of all, nested hierarchies are only produced by genetic descent. Secondly, the nested hierarchy based on genetic sequence is very close to the classic nested hierarchy based on morphology.


Speciation, like natural section is not a mechanism for a biological change.
Just plain wrong. Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, and speciation results in new popualtions that reproduce independent of the parent species.


If it is based on facts, it is no longer a theory, it is a law.
No. Google "Scientific Law."


Certainly things can be proven and when they are they are no longer a theory. That is why evolution is still called a theory---it has neve b een proven.

No. I showed you the definition of a scientifc theory. We prove nothing in science. Stop being dense.
 
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lasthero

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Of course science proves things.

No, it doesn't. All you've proven is that you don't understand what it means to actually prove something.

What evolution preaches has never been observed or repeated and is not testable. Give me one, just one exampel tha thas been observed.

They've all been observed.

It it happend a million years ago, you cannot observe it.

Yes, you can. You can observe evidence and make conclusions from it. You don't need to see it happening anymore than a jury needs to personally witness a crime to reach a verdict.

Laws are the hightest form of knowledge.

No, they are not. End of line. You are wrong. There's no argument here. Law does not mean what you think it means. You can say it means what you want it to mean all you like, but the fact of the matter is, the simple, inescapable, unavoidable, undeniable, inalienable fact of the matter is that you are totally, completely, factually, WRONG. You're as wrong as wrong can be. You're not on the same page as facts - you're not even in the same book. How else can I say it? I don't speak no other languages.
 
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OllieFranz

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You have too low view of real science. Of course science proves things. It hs proven that thee is moe than one blood type. It can prove
what type you have. It can prove that if yu get the wrong type, you will die.

Science can confirm laws, proving observations. It can "prove" theories inductively. A theory that has been "proven" inductively is called "well-established." Trials at law are also "proven" inductively. "Well -established" in science is the same as "beyond a reasonable doubt" in law. Neither Science nor Law can prove anything deductively.


Not true. What evolution preaches has never been observed or repeated and is not testable. Give me one, just one exampel tha thas been observed.

The greenish warbler. Fifty years ago, they were one species (albeit a ring species) now they are two or three

Evidentglay you do not udnerstand what "observed" means.

Apparently you think it means "saw with the naked eye." Does that mean I don't observe anything if I need glasses? What if we need a microscope or a telescope to see something? What about an interferometer? At what point does it stop being an observation?


It it happend a million years ago, you cannot observe it.

Yes we can, if it happened on a star a million light-years away. And we can see the results, the evidence, of past events and recognize them as such based on similar events which we observed and saw the same results of.


Laws are the hightest form of knowledge. Until a heory has been proven, it does not have any knowledge.

False, as I patiently explained in my last post.

People who say evoluion is a proven factgive no indication of how it is biologically possible.

And the fact that you could write that sentence, phrased that way, shows that you know even less about biology than they do.
 
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KWCrazy

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Why would they have rings? Rings accumulate from seasonal growth. It's not necessary for a tree to have them. If God made the trees with rings already in them, he would be giving the impression they had seasonal growth which they didn't have. What would be the point of that?
What is the point of creating trees that already bear fruit when they are created; of creating a man who can walk and talk at creation; at creating skies full of fowl and waters teeming with fish in one day; of creating an entire ecosystem in six days? God created a mature earth. A mature tree could have growth rings even though it never actually grew through seasons.

Suppose that God, who is omnipresent in the future as well as in the past, decides in his mind all the things that would comprise a mature fruit tree and then He creates it in its adult form. Would there be any difference from any tree that matured over time? No. why? Because it was created in tis mature state, like the sun, moon, stars and the earth.

Oh, and never mind that we've found trees that date older than the global flood, but younger than the literal interpretation's age of the Earth.
If it takes 100 years for an oak tree to mature, and God creates a mature oak tree in one tenth of a second, how old is the mature oak tree? Trying to use conventional methods to measure the age of something which was created supernaturally is kind of like trying to offload a trailer full of milk with a pitchfork. Just because it works for hay it doesn't mean that it works for milk. Counting tree rings may work for a tree that grew from seed, but how does one calculate the age of a mature tree bearing fruit that wasn't there an instant before?

By the way. Many trees can live a long time under water, including the olive tree; which explains why the dove could return with a leaf from a tree that had been previously under water.

It's 'devotees' grasp it just fine.
No they do NOT! They are constantly saying that it's as reliable as the theory of gravity. Why they always choose gravity I don't know. I guess they have been conditioned to NOT think for themselves.
Yes, it has.
No, ADAPTATION has been observed. Increasing complexity has not. They tried to force evolutionary change through mutating fruit flies. Did it work? No. Why? No species ever "evolves" into anything other than a slightly modified version of itself. Modification beyond a certain point ALWAYS results in sterility and death.
My mother had mutations, my father had mutations, they produced me,
That explains a lot, actually.
Appeal to ridicule, nice. Any actual argument?
It's hard to argue with foolish statements.
You can't see an atom splitting anymore than you can travel to the past. But atomic theory is science, and so is evolution.
We can split the atom and use its energy for power or destruction. Atomic theory is science. Biology is science. Evolution is not science. Evolution is an unprovable claim of universal origin and increasing complexity due to the acquisition of new genetic information through mutation. It has never been observed, and the mechanism for it does not exist in nature.
No, it is not an assumption.
A hypothesis is an assumption. A theory which is constantly being modified is not "the strongest and most truthful explanations of how the universe, nature, and life came to be," regardless of what your source believes. The strongest evidence of how origination came about is through the Scriptures. Remove the supernatural explanation for the origination of the universe and you have nothing left. There isn't a single valid theory that doesn't violate natural law in one way or another or make outlandish assumptions about things that are not known to even exist.
Notice how I'm producing sources to support my stance,
I do note that you're overlooking key words like inferences, hypothesis and inductive reasoning, all of which can be summarized by "educated guess." The fact is, there is NO scientific explanation for origination, and science can't disprove miracles. Now it comes down to faith. Do you put your faith in someone's interpretation of the rocks, or in the Creator of the rocks?

Also notice that the actual definition of a law is on that second link, and it's not at all like the one you're producing. Who's wrong, here?
You. Scientific law: a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met; also, a formal statement about such a phenomenon; also called natural law"

"A law in science is a generalized rule to explain a body of observations in the form of a verbal or mathematical statement. Scientific laws imply a cause and effect between the observed elements and must always apply under the same conditions."

Laws are absolute and true 100% of the time. If there are ever ANY exceptions, it is no longer a law. If you think that a theory can supersede and invalidate natural law, you need to go back to school.
 
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lasthero

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What is the point of creating trees that already bear fruit when they are created; of creating a man who can walk and talk at creation; at creating skies full of fowl and waters teeming with fish in one day; of creating an entire ecosystem in six days?

Because these things need those abilities to function. Birds need to fly and fish need to swim in order for the ecosystem to work the way it does. Trees need to produce fruit. It's how they spread seeds. They do NOT need to have rings. The rings serve no actual purpose to the trees growth, they're simply a byproduct. God, being omnipotent, is certainly capable of creating a tree without rings, so why didn't he? There's absolutely no reason for the tree to have rings that it didn't actually develop.

It would be like someone making a car, then deliberately cracking off the paint, inducing rust, and setting the mileage so that it had 120,000 on it. What would be the point of doing this to a car except to give someone the impression that it was older than it actually is? These are all things that happen to a car over time, but none of them are required for the car to function. It doesn't NEED to rust, it just does over time.

Counting tree rings may work for a tree that grew from seed, but how does one calculate the age of a mature tree bearing fruit that wasn't there an instant before?

So god created new trees after the flood?

By the way. Many trees can live a long time under water, including the olive tree

I would love to see a study that shows an olive tree can survive the better part of a year submerged under tons of water. Go ahead. Produce it. I'll even forget the fact that a flood which was supposedly strong enough to CARVE THE GRAND CANYON IN A MATTER OF MINUTES would probably reduce any tree it came into contact with to absolute mulch.

And we're not talking about olive trees, so what's your point? Even if that were true - and you've given no reason to believe it is - just because olive trees can survive underwater doesn't mean every tree can.

They are constantly saying that it's as reliable as the theory of gravity. Why they always choose gravity I don't know.

Because it is. I'd even say it's more reliable; there's still a great many things we don't understand about gravity.

No species ever "evolves" into anything other than a slightly modified version of itself.

Exactly. Slight modifications. A little change here, a little change there, and the longer this goes on, the more an organism changes. Congratulations, you finally understand how evolution works. You can now graduate to middle school.

That explains a lot, actually.

Everyone has mutations, genius. You have mutations. I have mutations. Your Mother does. Your Dad does. Basic biology.

We can split the atom and use its energy for power or destruction.

True, but that doesn't mean we can see it splitting. We can see the effects of it, but not the actual split. For all you know, magical, invisible pixies rush in and snap their fingers every time we think we're splitting an atom, and that's what causes the effect. I mean, you can't see the atom splitting, right? You can't 'observe' it? So any conclusion about what's actually happening is as valid as any other, despite all the evidence we have which supports that it is, in fact, caused by atoms splitting.

It has never been observed, and the mechanism for it does not exist in nature.

Natural selection doesn't exist in nature? Really? Animals with favored characteristics aren't more likely to pass on those characteristics to the next generation?

A theory which is constantly being modified is not "the strongest and most truthful explanations of how the universe, nature, and life came to be,"

If theory wasn't open to modification, it wouldn't be science. It would be dogma. Science has to be open to modification. It has to change as we learn new things and incorporate new data. As Mark Norrell put it:

When more evidence is garnered, whether through the analysis of additional characters, through the discovery of new specimens, or by pointing out errors and problems with the original data sets, new trees can be calculated. If these new trees better explain the data (taking fewer evolutionary transformations), they supplant the previous trees. You might not always like what comes out, but you have to accept it.

Any real systematist (or scientist in general) has to be ready to heave all that he or she has believed in, consider it crap, and move on, in the face of new evidence. That is how we differ from clerics.

regardless of what your source believes.

My source - and every scientific source out there - is right, and you are wrong. You do not get to change the definition of words simply because you don't like them. Sorry.

You really are amazing. You say theory is one thing. I show a source, an actual scientific source, that shows you're wrong. Do you admit that you're wrong? No. Do you produce a source that supports your stance? No. You simply continue to assert that you're right, in spite of the evidence to the contrary. That is some amazing arrogance.

Laws are absolute and true 100% of the time

No, they are NOT. Newton's Law was replaced by general relativity, and that's just one example. Did you even go to school? Laws are based on our observations. If our observations change, the law has to change. How could they ever be true 100% of the time?

If you think that a theory can supersede and invalidate natural law, you need to go back to school.

No, you do. Even the definitions you provided don't agree with you; nothing about the defintion of a law says that it's a higher form of theory. The definitions you provide say nothing about them being true '100% of the time' or being 'absolute'. Nothing. You just added that in.

And I never said theories supercede or invalidate laws. Theories and laws are different things that serve different purposes.


Evolution is an unprovable claim of universal origin

No, it's not. Evolution is not about universal origin, it is about the diversification of life after the origin, whatever that may be, be it God, abiogenesis, or the stomach waste of a mystical space Cthulu.
 
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KWCrazy

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They do NOT need to have rings. The rings serve no actual purpose to the trees growth, they're simply a byproduct.
We're arguing an unprovable. All mature trees have growth rings. God created mature trees. Therefore, God created trees with growth rings. True or false? Unprovable. Your contention is even MORE unprovabel. Mature trees have rings. Rings show growth. God created mature trees, therefore the trees DIDN'T have rings. Its only basis is incredulity and your how you think a God you don't believe in would have performed a creation you don't believe happened. If God had in His mind a mature tree in the same formation that we see mature trees today, then absolutely they would have rings just the same as Adam would have his adult teeth.
So god created new trees after the flood?
Nothing I've said indicates that.
I would love to see a study that shows an olive tree can survive the better part of a year submerged under tons of water.
I didn't have much luck Googling a study, but there are many articles which confirm that trees and plants can live underwater for a long period of time. I guess if three men can stand in the middle of a furnace, then if it suits God's purpose trees can live underwater for a year. Nobody ever said ALL trees lived. Many, probably most, were uprooted and died. We have found evidence of this. Floods don't kill trees. Lack of oxygen can kill them. However, with an intact root system a tree can be cut down and still regrow.
I'll even forget the fact that a flood which was supposedly strong enough to CARVE THE GRAND CANYON IN A MATTER OF MINUTES would probably reduce any tree it came into contact with to absolute mulch.
I'll wager that there aren't any standing trees in the Grand Canyon that predate the flood. However, during runoff the erosion is much greater at the lower elevations than the higher elevations. The olive tree was near a mountain peak. Presumably, in the low areas nothing would be left standing.
just because olive trees can survive underwater doesn't mean every tree can.
I doesn't mean every tree did. Seeds can go dormant and survive. Again, you are assuming that natural forces would trump the intentions of the Creator. God has no such limitations.

Because it is. I'd even say it's more reliable; there's still a great many things we don't understand about gravity.
Gravity can be observed. The experiments intending to prove evolution only proved it doesn't happen.

Exactly. Slight modifications. A little change here, a little change there, and the longer this goes on, the more an organism changes.
Each change results in a loss, not gain, of information. Repeated subtraction never equals addition. Devolution would more closely follow natural order than evolution.
Congratulations, you finally understand how evolution works.
You make the same ignorant assumption that others do; that people don't believe the same lies that you do because they don't UNDERSTAND those lies. On the contrary. We understand much more than you; that God is real; that the supernatural world exists; and that the Creator is lord over the creation.
Everyone has mutations, genius.
Hey, if you float a slow curve ball over the plate I'm going to hit it.
For all you know, magical, invisible pixies rush in and snap their fingers every time we think we're splitting an atom, and that's what causes the effect. I mean, you can't see the atom splitting, right? You can't 'observe' it? So any conclusion about what's actually happening is as valid as any other, despite all the evidence we have which supports that it is, in fact, caused by atoms splitting.
That is probably the stupidest analogy I've seen all week.
Natural selection doesn't exist in nature? Really?
Who said that? Natural SELECTION is not natural ADDITION! Selection means selection from available characteristics, NOT the acquisition of new characteristics that are not present in the system.

If theory wasn't open to modification, it wouldn't be science.
If it IS modified then the modification proves what was previously taught as absolute fact was not correct, doesn't it? If a ruling on the field is reversed, then that ruling was wrong, just as what is being taught today will be declared wrong by what is being taught tomorrow.
My source - and every scientific source out there - is right
Sorry, but your statement is a bald faced lie. Every "scientific source" doesn't agree on the exact definition of anything, as I have just demonstrated. Try researching the exact verbiage of the laws of thermodynamics. They all say the same thing, but in dozens of different ways. There IS NO agreement on precise definition about anything. Universalism is NOT science.
I show a source, an actual scientific source, that shows you're wrong. Do you admit that you're wrong? No. Do you produce a source that supports your stance? No.
I presented two.

If you are going to misrepresent my responses, then we're done here.
 
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lasthero

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All mature trees have growth rings.

Because of the environment they grow in. Seasonal change creates them. It's not the trees, it's the way they grow in response to the seasons. In areas with different seasons, they grow in different ways. Growing a tree in an area with no seasons doesn't produce rings. A mature tree doesn't need to have rings any more than a car needs to have rust. They're both responses to the environment.

but there are many articles which confirm that trees and plants can live underwater for a long period of time.

Then show one. Show an article that would lead you to believe the trees in question could survive the better part of a year submerged under tons of water. And we're talking about terrestrial plants, here, not aquatic ones, obviously.

Floods don't kill trees. Lack of oxygen can kill them.

Plants ingest Co2. Botany fail. Terrestrial plants are equipped to get it from air, aquatic ones frm underwater...and never mind the tremendous pressure from the water, or the fact that light can only go so far below the surface...

Each change results in a loss, not gain, of information.

Source?

You make the same ignorant assumption that others do; that people don't believe the same lies that you do because they don't UNDERSTAND those lies. On the contrary. We understand much more than you; that God is real; that the supernatural world exists; and that the Creator is lord over the creation.

Blah, blah, blah. You're just mudslinging, now.

That is probably the stupidest analogy I've seen all week.

It's pretty much your position, in a nutshell.

There IS NO agreement on precise definition about anything. Universalism is NOT science.

But they're all saying the same thing - in this case, that a theory is the highest form of knowledge available in science. Not law. Theory. You haven't produced a single thing that shows any different.
 
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lasthero

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If it IS modified then the modification proves what was previously taught as absolute fact was not correct, doesn't it? If a ruling on the field is reversed, then that ruling was wrong, just as what is being taught today will be declared wrong by what is being taught tomorrow.

Nope. Newton's Law was correct in most cases, but incomplete and couldn't explain certain anamolies. Einstein fixed that.

I presented two.

If you are going to misrepresent my responses, then we're done here.

Neither of your sources say what you say they do. Laws are not the ultimate form of scientific knowledge. Theories are.

Gravity can be observed.

How?
 
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lasthero

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By the way, KW, one last thing.

You said that your Google search didn't turn up much, but I suspect that isn't the case - what I find more likely is that you just didn't like what it gave you back. I say this, because I did some looking into it, myself, just a while ago, and came back with all sorts of things.

Notably:

How long can trees survive flooding before injury results? As you might expect, this has become an all too frequent question lately as torrential rains and bloated rivers continue to plague many regions in Iowa. Fortunately for most trees, the prospect for survival and continued growth is good. Even flood-sensitive trees will escape injury if flood waters recede in seven days or less. But, if flood waters cover roots of sensitive trees for longer periods, injury symptoms such as leaf chlorosis (yellowing), downward curling of leaves, leaf drop, and branch dieback may occur. And in a few extreme cases, entire trees may die.

Which trees are intolerant of flooding? Some of the more common species used in Iowa are sugar maple, white oak, yellow buckeye, tulip tree, black walnut, redbud, linden, red oak, and most pines and spruces. Researchers have found these species suffer severe injury or die if flood waters persist over their roots for one month or less. Sensitive trees along the Mississippi River will probably be pushed to their limit as flood waters are predicted to persist for quite some time. Thankfully along smaller rivers and tributaries, flood conditions usually last only a few days and should pose little danger to flood-sensitive trees.

Note that this is only talking about normal flooding over a short period of time - it's not talking about trees being covered by tons of water. Also note that the world's three oldest tree are all Bristlecone Pines, and they all have ages that stretch well past the supposed date of the flood.

List of oldest trees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, this:

Floods don't kill trees.

Is not even remotely true.


Flooding may cause direct damage to trees by changing soil conditions, interrupting normal gas exchange between trees and their environment, sedimentation, and physical damage. Flooding also may weaken trees, thus making them more susceptible to indirect damage from insects and diseases. The likelihood of insect and disease damage depends upon the severity of the flood and tree health. A tree in weak condition before a flood can be further stressed by flooding and consequently susceptible to insects and diseases.

Trees that are flood stressed exhibit a range of symptoms that may include: leaf chlorosis and subsequent defoliation, reduced leaf size, early fall coloration and leaf drop, development of epicormic shoots (watersprouts or small shoots emerging from the main stem), crown dieback, and production of either large seed crops or no seed crops in years following a flood. Symptoms may progress and ultimately result in tree death over a period of several years or they may abate as the tree recovers. It is very difficult to link a flood to the cause of tree death years later.

Flooding Effects on Trees - University of Minnesota Extension
 
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frogman2x

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Yes, it does.

What logic. I know it certainly convinced me.

The first life form did not have bones, legs, eyes, or a complex reproductive system. The majority of life on the Earth does not have those features.

The first life for also did not hve genes for bones, legs, eye, etc., so how did it produce kids with these characeristics? Do you not understand even basic biology?


Because they evolved. That's the whole point. They diverged and became different because different mutations accumulated in each lineage. It's called evolution.

This the typical evo response. You say it happened so it did. How silly. Tell me HOW it happened biologially.

Humans are apes.

Speak for youself. I am homo sapian, apes are not. That is a necessary classification to give the faithful hope that have not been deceived.

They are linked by both DNA and transitional fossils. How is that not biological?

They are not. Ape DNA is distinctfor human DNA and you have no fossils linking man to ape. In fact you don't have even one transitioanl fossil All the evos have is a vivid imagination.

Please provide evidence that mutations do not add characteristics<<

There is no evidence. Provide the evidence that they do add characeristics.

Completely false. Theories explain laws. The theory of relativity explains the laws of gravitation, as one example. The laws of gravitiation came before the theory of evolution.<<

You still have it backwards. A theory cannot explain a fact. Facts are proven, theories are not.

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact.

Straight our of talk originas and is just plain silly. NOTHING in the ToE has ever been proven to be a fact.

And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty.<<

Not true. Facts help a theory advance until more facts are discovered and the theory is proven or disproven.

Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome.

It did not replace it, it added to it. We probabaly still dont know all there is to know about gravity.

And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"

You have absolutly no biological evidence that humans evolvled from apes. Gould recognized the weakness of the fossil record so he invented punctuated equilibra, which is evn more absurd to prove evolution. Ernst Mayr says the fossil record is "woefully inadequate."

Gravity is still a theory, and the theory explains the laws of gravity. Relativity is not a fact or a law. It is a theory. Quantum gravity is still a theory, not a law or a fact.

Some of what we know about gravity is not a theory. Jump out of a tall building and one fact about gravity jumps out immedatiely.

Facts are what is proven. Facts are the world's data. Theories are used to tie the data together into a cohesive explanation.

You still have it backwards.

kermit
 
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frogman2x

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The best evidence in my opinion is the fact that all life on earth fits into the twin nested hierarchy. First of all, nested hierarchies are only produced by genetic descent. Secondly, the nested hierarchy based on genetic sequence is very close to the classic nested hierarchy based on morphology.

You are actdually contradicdtion yourself when you point to "genetic descent."
The first life form accordingd to the ToE was a simple celled something. If that is true, that lifeform did not have bones, did not need bones and did not hve a gener for bones. Therefore, genetically speaking, it could dot produce a kid with bones.


Just plain wrong. Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution,
It is not. The rabbit with the stonger legs is still a rabbit and will only producue other rabbits, which may or may not have the stronger legs. If natural selection is true, and it cannot be proven, it might contribute to the species not becoming extinct, but it cannot be a mecanism for the rabbit to become somethig other than another rabbit.

and speciation results in new popualtions that reproduce independent of the parent species.

Speciatin is about groups that can no longer mate and reproduce. How does that account for a new species? There are several reasons why a population can no longer produce offspring. To much inner breeding for example.

Give me an example of speciation causing a different species.

No. I showed you the definition of a scientifc theory. We prove nothing in science. Stop being dense.

Not true. Is there more than one blood type? How do we know that? Do you know wht your blood type is? How do you know that?

Jump out a tall building and you will immediately prove one part of the laws of gravity .

k
 
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frogman2x

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How is it not a mechanism for biological change? That doesn't even make sense. It's change, by definition.

The definition is one of necessity. You say it is a mechanism, tell me how and don't forget to include the biological evidence.


That is not the way it works. Theories do not graduate in laws. Plain and simple.

It is so simple, explain how it works but don't forget to include the biology that makes it work.

What is with you people? Are you so afraid of actually learning something that might go against your preconceived notions that you won't even read the first chapter of an elementary school textbook?

I have no preconceived notions. Actually you do. I look at the science and ask, is that possile. You accept by faith alone whatever some evo says. Since you are evidentlay way above me in intellect, tell me what detemines if the offspring has a particular characteristic. Bones for example.

>>This is basic science. These are basic terms. I nearly flunked out of biology in high school, I can admit that, but even I understood enough back then to know how wrong the above statement is.<<

If you nearly flunkded the basics maybe you don't unerstand the basics. You have accepted what you were taught and don't know the basics.

You guys aren't just ignorant, you wallow in ignorance.

And yet there are some with advanced degrees in biology, which makes them smarter than you are, who reject evolution.

It's almost physically nauseating. My only hope is that you're as young as your poor grasp of spelling would lead me to believe, because being an eight year old is the only reasonable excuse for being this amazingly dense.

Well mr. know it all, I am probabaly many years older than your(81)and I did not almost flunk biology in college and I have probably looked into what both sides say more than you have.

One think you are ignorant of is that when one has to resort to insults it is because they cannot inntellectually defend their postion.

Good grief.

That is the only thing you have gotten right in this whole discussion but you have applied to the wrong person. :)


In your picture of Jesus, He is wondering how an otherwise intellignt people can belive in evolution. :D


kermit



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frogman2x

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We don't know.

Then you can't say it caused all of the matter in the univierse. It would take much more energy thay you can imagine create all of the matter we know is in the universe and we have no idea how large it is.

Energy, like matter cannot creat itself out of nothing.


No "evo" claims to be omniscient.

Well that's a start.

kermit
 
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