John 3:14-16 teaches that Christ died for everyone

[guuila]

What if you're praying for one of those "non-elect" types?

Could be. I don't know who the elect are. What if you're praying for one of those "non-elect" types when you ask God to convict them of sin? What's the point in that?

 

[guuila]

Now, please quit stalling and dodging all over the place, and just tell me what those 2 verses mean to you.

Hammster? Is this you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1UO6X0KRjc

 

[Jack Terrence]

I'm aware of that. However, the fact that it did "show up" indicates a very clear understanding of the fact that the gospel is for everyone.

So if uninspired writings say that the gospel is for everyone that makes it true? You have previously done violence to the credibility of scripture by saying that the gospel narratives cannot be harmonized. Now you blatantly deny Sola Scriptura with your suggestion that uninspired writings are also our authority.

Whether or not Mark 16:9-20 is inspired doesn't matter. The expression "every creature" does NOT mean all men inclusively. Paul used the same expression when he said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven" (Colossians 1:23). Common sense tells us that the gospel has not at any time been preached to all men inclusively.

But it had been preached to all nations of men in Paul's time. Thus, the gospel is for all nations of men.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So if uninspired writings say that the gospel is for everyone that makes it true?

No, but Heb 2:9, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Tim 4:10 1 Jn 4:14, Jn 4:42 ALL indicate that the gospel is for everyone because Christ died for everyone.

You have previously done violence to the credibility of scripture by saying that the gospel narratives cannot be harmonized.

Sorry to have so confused you. All I meant is that the Last Supper is described in such a way in all 4 accounts that none of them include everything that happened. In fact, only John's gospel even tells us that Judas left. And John left out the Lord's Table completely. That's all I meant.

Now you blatantly deny Sola Scriptura with your suggestion that uninspired writings are also our authority.

Whether or not Mark 16:9-20 is inspired doesn't matter.

If you are telling the truth, why all the fuss at the beginning of your post then?

The expression "every creature" does NOT mean all men inclusively.

Go ahead and prove that. That is the natural meaning, and there is nothing in context to support your "not every creature" meaning.

Paul used the same expression when he said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven" (Colossians 1:23). Common sense tells us that the gospel has not at any time been preached to all men inclusively.

Just apples to oranges here. Show me from Mark in context that would prove that "every creature" doesn't really "every creature". Then the debate would be over, right?

But it had been preached to all nations of men in Paul's time. Thus, the gospel is for all nations of men.

Sure, from Paul's meaning. But not so in Mark's. But please show me from the context that would support your opposite meaning of "not every creature".

 

[Jack Terrence]

No, but Heb 2:9, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Tim 4:10 1 Jn 4:14, Jn 4:42 ALL indicate that the gospel is for everyone because Christ died for everyone.

No! It means that Christ died for all nations of men. Take the Hebrews 2:9 verse for example. You left out verse 10 in which the intent of Christ's death is clearly explained. The intent of His death is to bring "the many SONS to glory." Christ died to bring "the many SONS" from all nations of men to glory. He did NOT die to bring every individual to glory.

Sorry to have so confused you. All I meant is that the Last Supper is described in such a way in all 4 accounts that none of them include everything that happened. In fact, only John's gospel even tells us that Judas left. And John left out the Lord's Table completely. That's all I meant.

You actually said:

Since none of the 4 accounts include all that the other accounts do, they can't be "harmonized". John's account doesn't even include the institution of the Lord's Table.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7774519-16/ post #159

But now you seem to be retracting your statement which is good.

Go ahead and prove that. That is the natural meaning, and there is nothing in context to support your "not every creature" meaning.

It's common sense. Jesus told His disciples that they would NOT reach all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. So Paul could NOT have meant that the gospel had been preached to every human being.

Furthermore, the same expression "pasa ktisis" (every creature) is also used in Revelation 5:13. It says that "every creature" (pasa ktisis) in heaven and on earth gives blessing to the Lamb. Using your logic we must therefore accept the Universal Salvation doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No! It means that Christ died for all nations of men.

Absolutely NONE of these verses mean "nations of men". Here the are:

No, but Heb 2:9, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Tim 4:10 1 Jn 4:14, Jn 4:42 ALL indicate that the gospel is for everyone because Christ died for everyone.

Here's how 45 different translations rendered "all" in Heb 2:9.

EVERYONE - 25
Common English Bible
Contemporary English Version
Easy-To-Read Version
ESV
ESV Anglicized
Expanded Bible
God’s Word
Good News Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lexham English Bible
Mounce Reverse Interlinear NT
Names of God Bible
NASB
New Century Version
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLT
NRSV
NRSV anglicized
NRSV anglicized Catholic
NRSV Catholic
The Voice
World English Bible

EVERY ONE - 3
RSV
RSV Catholic
Young’s Literal Translation

EVERY MAN - 6
21st Century KJV
ASV
JB Phillips NT
Jubilee Bible 2000
KJV
Authorized KJV

EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON - 1
Amplified Bible

ALL HUMANITY - 1
Complete Jewish Bible

EVERY THING - 2
Darby Translation
Douay-Rheims1899 American Ed

ALL MEN - 2
1599 Geneva
Wycliffe

ON BEHALF OF ALL - 2
Knox Bible
Orthodox Jewish Bible

EVERY PERSON’S PLACE - 1
The Message

ALL OF US - 1
New Life Version

EVERY PERSON - 1
Worldwide English NT

So, your argument is with actual Koine Greek scholars and experts, not with me. NONE of them believe that Christ only died for "nations of men".

Take the Hebrews 2:9 verse for example. You left out verse 10 in which the intent of Christ's death is clearly explained.

Tell that to the real Greek language experts. And I didn't ignore it. And, yes, the intent of His death IS salvation, but one must believe in Him for it. His death didn't save anyone.

The intent of His death is to bring "the many SONS to glory." Christ died to bring "the many SONS" from all nations of men to glory. He did NOT die to bring every individual to glory.

Those who believe in Him ARE brought to glory. Of course.

But now you seem to be retracting your statement which is good.

No, I'm not "retracting" anything. I have clarified my point. There is a huge difference.

Furthermore, the same expression "pasa ktisis" (every creature) is also used in Revelation 5:13. It says that "every creature" (pasa ktisis) in heaven and on earth gives blessing to the Lamb. Using your logic we must therefore accept the Universal Salvation doctrine.

I'm sure you know that both the OT and the NT says "every knee shall bow before Him". Isn't that a blessing?

 

[Jack Terrence]

I'm sure you know that both the OT and the NT says "every knee shall bow before Him". Isn't that a blessing?

So you are a Universalist then? If so, you are supposed to be posting in the Unorthodox Theology forum.

Paul's "every knee shall bow" statement is from Isaiah who said also that every tongue shall confess the Lord as His righteousness.

I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’” Isaiah 45:22-25

God swore by Himself that every knee shall bow and that every tongue shall say "In the LORD I HAVE righteousness and strength."

According to verse 4 these are the Elect. Therefore, Paul's statement, "every knee shall bow," and, "every tongue shall confess" is about the Elect.

Every creature who gives blessing to the Lamb in Revelation 5:13 is saved.

Don't forget that Jesus said that they would not reach all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. This guarantees that the gospel will NOT be preached to every individual. So I don't care what your lexographers say. There are Reformed lexographers who say otherwise. The term "pasa ktisis" (every creature) does NOT mean every human being. Paul said that the gospel was preached to "every creature under heaven." Yet Jesus indicated that some cities would not hear the gospel.

Isaiah said that "ALL the descendants of Israel shall be JUSTIFIED."

Try again

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you are a Universalist then? If so, you are supposed to be posting in the Unorthodox Theology forum.

You've been responding to my posts for a long time, and you ask this??? How in the world do you come to that ridiculous conclusion? I suppose by not reading anything I post, but responding without knowing anything I've posted.

Paul's "every knee shall bow" statement is from Isaiah who said also that every tongue shall confess the Lord as His righteousness.

You really don't think at the GWT judgment, that everyone will recognize that Christ's righteousness is superior to their own works-righteousness?

So, you don't believe literally that "every knee shall bow", huh.

I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’” Isaiah 45:22-25

God swore by Himself that every knee shall bow and that every tongue shall say "In the LORD I HAVE righteousness and strength."

According to verse 4 these are the Elect. Therefore, Paul's statement, "every knee shall bow," and, "every tongue shall confess" is about the Elect.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know the drill. Every verse that speaks of the whole of mankind really only applies to the "elect". Yeah, sure.

Every creature who gives blessing to the Lamb in Revelation 5:13 is saved.

Different passage, different context.

 

[Jonathan95]

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

Just because he didn't pray for the world in that prayer, doesn't mean he doesn't will that all the world should be saved, which the Scripture is clear God wills.

 

[Hammster]

Just because he didn't pray for the world in that prayer,

Argument form silence.

doesn't mean he doesn't will that all the world should be saved, which the Scripture is clear God wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:19, 20 ESV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:19, 20 ESV)

Posted from AW:

Originally Posted by Apologetic_Warrior
John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

How come Calvinists always insist that "world" always means just the elect, except in John 17:9? Why is that?

 

[Hammster]

Posted from AW:

How come Calvinists always insist that "world" always means just the elect, except in John 17:9? Why is that?

We don't.

I'm glad I could clear that up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We don't.

I'm glad I could clear that up.

You do.

And you didn't.

 

[guuila]

How come Calvinists always insist that "world" always means just the elect, except in John 17:9? Why is that?

The context determines the meaning of kosmos. If the context makes kosmos mean 100% of humanity, awesome. If not, great.

 

[Hammster]

You do.

And you didn't.

Then prove where we've said that world ALWAYS means elect.

I'll wait.

 

[Hammster]

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17 ESV)

Pretty sure "world" doesn't mean elect.

 

[guuila]

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17 ESV)

Pretty sure "world" doesn't mean elect.

I guess we can put this false accusation to rest. That didn't take long.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The context determines the meaning of kosmos. If the context makes kosmos mean 100% of humanity, awesome. If not, great.

Of course context determines meaning. Yet, so convenient that "world" ALWAYS means "only the elect" when it fits your theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then prove where we've said that world ALWAYS means elect.

I'll wait.

No need to wait. I never said what you are claiming here. You missed the context of what I said. Please review what I did say and note the context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. (1 John 2:15-17 ESV)

Pretty sure "world" doesn't mean elect.

Sure. It didn't violate your limited view of the scope of Christ's death for the sins of the whole world.

But in that verse (1 Jn 2:2), you insiste that "whole world" cannot mean everyone in humanity. Which is my point. You understand "world" according to your theology, not according to context. Though you do claim you consider context. But you don't.