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John 3:14-16 teaches that Christ died for everyone

FreeGrace2

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Fallen man has the moral ability to choose right from wrong.
Then i don't understand all the fuss. But you have previously said that unregenerate man doesn't have the moral ability to choose. So which is it? You've been on both sides.
 
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C

crimsonleaf

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Sure. And I do pray. But not for God to save anyone. I already know that He is pleased to save those who believe, and I know that He doesn't cause anyone to believe.

Congratulations on being so individual that you neglect to pray for your fellow man. I actually find that quite shocking, but not surprising I guess.

And yet we, the alleged "frozen chosen", who are accused of everything up to and including "elitism", fully recognise the need to pray for others. Do you find that odd?

Using your argument, why do you pray for anything at all? Surely, if God's will is always done then prayer about anything is useless?
 
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Hammster

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Then i don't understand all the fuss. But you have previously said that unregenerate man doesn't have the moral ability to choose. So which is it? You've been on both sides.

You might have me confused with another member. I never said that. In fact, I said that the natural man's unwillingness is a choice.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Congratulations on being so individual that you neglect to pray for your fellow man.
I don't understand either your sarcasm or your untruth. Here is what I posted in #203:
I DO pray for opportunity to present the gospel, and for conviction of sin in others, so they will become open to the gospel.
Maybe you missed it. If so, I understand. If you didn't, you need to apologize.

I actually find that quite shocking, but not surprising I guess.
Well, get over your "shock" and please tell me what's so shocking about praying for opportunities to present the gospel, and for the Holy Spirit to convict others of sin, so that they will become open to the gospel.

And yet we, the alleged "frozen chosen", who are accused of everything up to and including "elitism", fully recognise the need to pray for others. Do you find that odd?
I find much of what you post and ask to be quite odd, actually. For example, why you totally misrepresented me in your post here. Since I SAID that I do pray for others in post #203, your statement here is totally off the mark.

Using your argument, why do you pray for anything at all?
Well, you're going to have to tell me just what my "argument" is, because your question here makes absolutely no sense at all. I have no idea where you get your ideas, but not from anything I have posted.

Surely, if God's will is always done then prayer about anything is useless?
Since you have already totally misrepresented my statement, your question is totally irrelevant. And therefore unanswerable.

If you do decide to ask a question that IS relevant to my view, I'd be quite happy to answer it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You might have me confused with another member. I never said that. In fact, I said that the natural man's unwillingness is a choice.
Well, excuse me for confusing all the posters.

So, I'll ask you outright: does unregenerate man have the "moral ability" to believe the gospel, or not?
 
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Hammster

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Well, excuse me for confusing all the posters.

So, I'll ask you outright: does unregenerate man have the "moral ability" to believe the gospel, or not?

Yes, if he could be convinced of its truthfulness and necessity. But like everyone else, he doesn't believe what he finds to be foolish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, if he could be convinced of its truthfulness and necessity. But like everyone else, he doesn't believe what he finds to be foolish.
What do you think is meant by the Holy Spirit's ministry of conviction, then?

And why was Paul trying to persuade (convince) Jews and Gentiles alike to believe the gospel?
 
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Hammster

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What do you think is meant by the Holy Spirit's ministry of conviction, then?
Where do you find that (and please exegete the verse(s).

And why was Paul trying to persuade (convince) Jews and Gentiles alike to believe the gospel?

Because he wanted Jews and Gentiles to be saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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"Lord, please convict Bob of sin. BUT DON'T YOU DARE SAVE HIM." - weird prayer
I agree with you, griff. That would be an extremely weird prayer.

But, seriously, why would you pray for God to save anyone? You do know that He is very well pleased to save those who believe, right?

And you believe that He has already chosen who will believe, right? So, what, exactly is there to pray for regarding someone's salvation?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Where do you find that (and please exegete the verse(s).
Excuse me, but I asked this first:
What do you think is meant by the Holy Spirit's ministry of conviction, then?
Your question did not answer my question. You go first, please.

Because he wanted Jews and Gentiles to be saved.
How can anyone be persuaded when God chooses who will believe? I don't see the point.
 
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Hammster

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Excuse me, but I asked this first:

Your question did not answer my question. You go first, please.
I know you asked first. I'm getting clarification on your question. I need to know what you are referring to, and whether or not it's biblical.
How can anyone be persuaded when God chooses who will believe? I don't see the point.

People still need to hear the gospel. Faith comes by hearing.
 
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G

guuila

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I agree with you, griff. That would be an extremely weird prayer.

But, seriously, why would you pray for God to save anyone? You do know that He is very well pleased to save those who believe, right?

And you believe that He has already chosen who will believe, right? So, what, exactly is there to pray for regarding someone's salvation?

I pray that God would disarm them of their rebellion by sovereignly and effectually changing their heart by grace, while giving them the gifts of faith and repentance. Is that a bad thing to pray? Does God really not do all those things?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I know you asked first. I'm getting clarification on your question. I need to know what you are referring to, and whether or not it's biblical.
Well, that is an amazing statement. John 16:8,9 is my source. Now, your answer please.

People still need to hear the gospel. Faith comes by hearing.
Can one of the non-elect be persuaded to believe?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I pray that God would disarm them of their rebellion by sovereignly and effectually changing their heart by grace, while giving them the gifts of faith and repentance.
What if you're praying for one of those "non-elect" types?

Is that a bad thing to pray?
What if they are one of the "non-elect" types?

Does God really not do all those things?
Not ever to one of those "non-elect" types. So why pray when you don't know who is and who isn't?

Wouldn't you agree that praying for one of those "non-elect" types be against God's will? I mean, since Christ didn't die for them, and they weren't chosen, and all.
 
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Hammster

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Well, that is an amazing statement. John 16:8,9 is my source. Now, your answer please.
Exegete it please. That way we are on the same page.
Can one of the non-elect be persuaded to believe?

No. Not even in your view can somebody who God knows won't believe be persuaded. But I bet you would proclaim the gospel to all.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Exegete it please. That way we are on the same page.
My question was a clear indication that you exegete it. Please proceed. Then I will know whether we are on the same page or in different universes. ;)

No. Not even in your view can somebody who God knows won't believe be persuaded. But I bet you would proclaim the gospel to all.
Per your first sentence, it is irrelevant and not close to the discussion.

Per your second sentence, I do because the Bible tells me to, because the gospel IS for everyone, which you don't believe. Mark 16:15.
 
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Hammster

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My question was a clear indication that you exegete it. Please proceed. Then I will know whether we are on the same page or in different universes. ;)
So you ask me a question based upon a premise you set forth, yet you won't explain that premise? I don't think that's how it works.

Per your first sentence, it is irrelevant and not close to the discussion.
Yes it is.
Per your second sentence, I do because the Bible tells me to, because the gospel IS for everyone, which you don't believe. Mark 16:15.

Mark 16:15 isn't really scripture. It never shows up in the earliest manuscripts. Therefore, I reflect it as scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So you ask me a question based upon a premise you set forth, yet you won't explain that premise? I don't think that's how it works.
I already explained my view, and you indicated you weren't aware of any Scripture that supported my view. Which is when I cited John 16:8,9 and asked you what it meant to you. So that's how it works. I already gave you my views, and cited the passage, and asked you for your understanding of the passage.

Now, please quit stalling and dodging all over the place, and just tell me what those 2 verses mean to you.

Mark 16:15 isn't really scripture. It never shows up in the earliest manuscripts. Therefore, I reflect it as scripture.
I'm aware of that. However, the fact that it did "show up" indicates a very clear understanding of the fact that the gospel is for everyone.
 
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Hammster

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I already explained my view, and you indicated you weren't aware of any Scripture that supported my view. Which is when I cited John 16:8,9 and asked you what it meant to you. So that's how it works. I already gave you my views, and cited the passage, and asked you for your understanding of the passage.

Now, please quit stalling and dodging all over the place, and just tell me what those 2 verses mean to you.
I guess I missed where you explained your understanding of that passage. Which post was it, and I'll go and re-read it. Thanks.

I'm aware of that. However, the fact that it did "show up" indicates a very clear understanding of the fact that the gospel is for everyone.
Sorry. I only use inspired scripture.
 
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