AUS: Upcoming Vote...

[ebia]

A pathetic attempt to divert attention from the argument by focusing attention instead on the person who made the argument while trying to claim the moral high ground against that person.

"Divine law is the ultimate authority. We always obey God's rules: "Refusing obedience to civil authorities when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. 'Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.' We must obey God rather than men."

Nobody is suggesting anyone be forced to marry someone of the same sex.

Meanwhile Christians are ignoring all sorts of immoral behaviour conducted by the state in their name.

BTW, the "render unto Caesar" story is much more subtle than the use you are trying to put it to.

 

[Carlotta]

Jesus is pointing out in that verse, that if you respect Caesar’s property, as you should, then all the more you ought to respect God’s property. So his full answer is, ‘Well, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. And while you are at it, give everything that belongs to God back to God’.

Everything comes from God and is God's. His law is higher than man's law. His authority is higher than Caesar's.

 

[ebia]

Jesus is pointing out in that verse, that if you respect Caesar's property, as you should, ...

Er, no.

What would have been obvious to the original audiences is that the denarius would have, in shorthand, around the edge "Tiberius Caesar, Son of the Divine Augustus". The very coin itself claimed divinity for Caesar.

 

[Sayre]

Er, no.

What would have been obvious to the original audiences is that the denarius would have, in shorthand, around the edge "Tiberius Caesar, Son of the Divine Augustus". The very coin itself claimed divinity for Caesar.

Right.

It was made in the image of Caesar.

We are made in the image of God.

It's really a call to render ourselves to God, since we are made in His image.

 

[Carlotta]

It depends on how you interpret it.

 

[Carlotta]

"This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about the circumstances under which it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority."

 

[Sayre]

"This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about the circumstances under which it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority."

Proof by appeal? How cute.

 

[Carlotta]

Proof by appeal? Would you like to expand on your criticism?

 

[Carlotta]

What are you actually refuting, do you know?

 

[Sayre]

Proof by appeal? Would you like to expand on your criticism?

What are you actually refuting, do you know?

Simply stating this:

"This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about the circumstances under which it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority."

does not make it true.

We don't have the right to multiple possible interpretations when the context speaks so clearly.

 

[Carlotta]

You still haven't explained why you think my interpretation is wrong other than you think so. You may have to take up your argument with the author of this passage from Wikipedia. Since you still haven't presented any facts to show my interpretation is incorrect, your argument is pointless and unsubstantiated.

 

[Carlotta]

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the authoritative interpreter of Sacred Scripture interprets the Tribute Episode to mean that Christians are obliged to disobey Caesar when Caesar’s dictates violate God’s law. As Dorothy Day is reputed to have said, “If we rendered unto God all the things that belong to God, there would be nothing left for Caesar.”

http://soulliberty.com/render-unto-caesar-a-most-misunderstood-new-testament-passage/

 

[ebia]

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the authoritative interpreter of Sacred Scripture ...

Um, no.

The Catechism is a summary of Catholic teaching - it's not an authoritative anything.

Now, back to the point. No-one is forcing you to get married to someone of the same sex, so why the Christian obsession with this question over the many other moral questions tied up in voting.

 

[elephunky]

dgirl1986 your statement is an absurd answer to mine, yes there are millions opposed to it because God didn't design sex to be between same sex and many people have some morality. Pity you don't.

You are looking at the total numbers of the population opposed to it, not the percentage of the nation. You do not know that for sure, unless of course he came down and told you personally. You consider it immoral, I consider it the way I was designed.

And please don't give me an argument that anal sex is natural or beautiful.

Um why would I? Why would you even bring that up? Not to mention that this particular act is engaged by many heterosexual couples and actually has nothing to do with marriage or love.

 

[TheDag]

A pathetic attempt to divert attention from the argument by focusing attention instead on the person who made the argument while trying to claim the moral high ground against that person.

"Divine law is the ultimate authority. We always obey God's rules: "Refusing obedience to civil authorities when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. 'Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.' We must obey God rather than men."

ok then show me evidence that the scriptures instructs us to force our views via legislation on others.
I believe active homosexuality is a sin. I believe the bible is clear about that. I also believe there is no reason to oppose gay marriage.

I would like evidence of problems being caused by gay marriage being allowed. I will add the condition that any people protesting and throwing tantrums because they did not get their way will not be accepted as evidence because those responses are not because gay marriage was allowed as those actions were present before gay marriage was allowed. If some choose to act in an unchristian way in response that will be between them and God and they will need to repent. I don't see one scrap of evidence that Jesus actively tried to change laws in his time on earth. Yes he spoke about laws and said this is what it really means and this is what people should do but never did he try and change the laws. If he had he would have been successful I'm sure.

A business saying I refuse to sell stock to homosexuals is not being forced to act against God's will. Selling a wedding cake to a gay couple is not endorsing gay marriage. If it was then Jesus endorsed drunkenness. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Sayre]

ok then show me evidence that the scriptures instructs us to force our views via legislation on others.
I believe active homosexuality is a sin. I believe the bible is clear about that. I also believe there is no reason to oppose gay marriage.

I would like evidence of problems being caused by gay marriage being allowed. I will add the condition that any people protesting and throwing tantrums because they did not get their way will not be accepted as evidence because those responses are not because gay marriage was allowed as those actions were present before gay marriage was allowed. If some choose to act in an unchristian way in response that will be between them and God and they will need to repent. I don't see one scrap of evidence that Jesus actively tried to change laws in his time on earth. Yes he spoke about laws and said this is what it really means and this is what people should do but never did he try and change the laws. If he had he would have been successful I'm sure.

A business saying I refuse to sell stock to homosexuals is not being forced to act against God's will. Selling a wedding cake to a gay couple is not endorsing gay marriage. If it was then Jesus endorsed drunkenness. You can't have it both ways.

Fantastic point.

Bigotry wrapped in a prayer is still bigotry.

 

[Carlotta]

None of these responses reflect God's. Obedience is imperative. The penalty for mortal sin is death. This is my final post here as I cannot respond when people's minds are closed.

Jesus warned us that in the Last Days, Satan's delusions will be centred around "Anomia". Anomia means lawlessness and is the Greek word for "Annulling God's Law." Why are entire Christian Churches adopting the idea that "Grace Frees Us to Disregard (Annul) God's Law"? Isaiah prophesied that just before the Lord comes back to Earth, the inhabitants will have, "Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, and Broken the Everlasting Covenant" (Isa.24:5). Isaiah prophesied that the Lord would utterly destroy the earth because of this. Is Jesus waiting for at least a small remnant within His Church to choose to be obedient and reflect His character instead?

Writing about the time just before Jesus' Second Coming, the time of Antichrist, Isaiah wrote: "The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left". (Isa.24:5-6)

John prophesying about Satan and Antichrist attacking God's people wrote: "The Dragon was wroth with the Woman, and went to make war with the Remnant of her seed, who keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev.12:17)

Isaiah Ch. 24: “They Have Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, Broken the Everlasting Covenant” | Isaiah: The Times of Fulfillment

The Mormon's say, "In order to sin without feeling guilt, one must lower his moral standard to correspond with his behavior. This is an exactly opposite teaching from the true gospel principle that to remove guilt one must lift his behavior to his moral standard through appropriate repentance. Seeking to reverse the process, some modern clinicians, with their false teachings, seek to strip mankind of the gift of conscience. The disarming of this divine alarm system enables the enemy to enter and move freely about."

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

This article 'Many False Prophets Will Arise and Deceive Many' - Good News Magazine | United Church of God written last year says, 'Moreover, the scribes and Pharisees went beyond mere false teaching. As Jesus explained, "All their works they do to be seen by men" (Matthew 23:5). He castigated them, "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (verse 28)

A man preaching that God's law is done away may be completely sincere in his belief—yet he is nevertheless a false teacher and certainly not a true representative of Jesus Christ.'

Defend the Family - Pro-Family Resource Center - News Archives

 

[Carlotta]

None of these responses reflect God's. Obedience is imperative. The penalty for mortal sin is death. This is my final post here as I cannot respond when people's minds are closed.

Jesus warned us that in the Last Days, Satan's delusions will be centred around "Anomia". Anomia means lawlessness and is the Greek word for "Annulling God's Law." Why are entire Christian Churches adopting the idea that "Grace Frees Us to Disregard (Annul) God's Law"? Isaiah prophesied that just before the Lord comes back to Earth, the inhabitants will have, "Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, and Broken the Everlasting Covenant" (Isa.24:5). Isaiah prophesied that the Lord would utterly destroy the earth because of this. Is Jesus waiting for at least a small remnant within His Church to choose to be obedient and reflect His character instead?

Writing about the time just before Jesus' Second Coming, the time of Antichrist, Isaiah wrote: "The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left". (Isa.24:5-6)

John prophesying about Satan and Antichrist attacking God's people wrote: "The Dragon was wroth with the Woman, and went to make war with the Remnant of her seed, who keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev.12:17)

Isaiah Ch. 24: “They Have Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, Broken the Everlasting Covenant” | Isaiah: The Times of Fulfillment

The Mormon's say, "In order to sin without feeling guilt, one must lower his moral standard to correspond with his behavior. This is an exactly opposite teaching from the true gospel principle that to remove guilt one must lift his behavior to his moral standard through appropriate repentance. Seeking to reverse the process, some modern clinicians, with their false teachings, seek to strip mankind of the gift of conscience. The disarming of this divine alarm system enables the enemy to enter and move freely about."

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

This article 'Many False Prophets Will Arise and Deceive Many' - Good News Magazine | United Church of God written last year says, 'Moreover, the scribes and Pharisees went beyond mere false teaching. As Jesus explained, "All their works they do to be seen by men" (Matthew 23:5). He castigated them, "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (verse 28)

A man preaching that God's law is done away may be completely sincere in his belief—yet he is nevertheless a false teacher and certainly not a true representative of Jesus Christ.'

Defend the Family - Pro-Family Resource Center - News Archives

 

[Archaeopteryx]

None of these responses reflect God's. Obedience is imperative. The penalty for mortal sin is death. This is my final post here as I cannot respond when people's minds are closed.

Jesus warned us that in the Last Days, Satan's delusions will be centred around "Anomia". Anomia means lawlessness and is the Greek word for "Annulling God's Law." Why are entire Christian Churches adopting the idea that "Grace Frees Us to Disregard (Annul) God's Law"? Isaiah prophesied that just before the Lord comes back to Earth, the inhabitants will have, "Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, and Broken the Everlasting Covenant" (Isa.24:5). Isaiah prophesied that the Lord would utterly destroy the earth because of this. Is Jesus waiting for at least a small remnant within His Church to choose to be obedient and reflect His character instead?

Writing about the time just before Jesus' Second Coming, the time of Antichrist, Isaiah wrote: "The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left". (Isa.24:5-6)

John prophesying about Satan and Antichrist attacking God's people wrote: "The Dragon was wroth with the Woman, and went to make war with the Remnant of her seed, who keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev.12:17)

Isaiah Ch. 24: “They Have Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, Broken the Everlasting Covenant” | Isaiah: The Times of Fulfillment

The Mormon's say, "In order to sin without feeling guilt, one must lower his moral standard to correspond with his behavior. This is an exactly opposite teaching from the true gospel principle that to remove guilt one must lift his behavior to his moral standard through appropriate repentance. Seeking to reverse the process, some modern clinicians, with their false teachings, seek to strip mankind of the gift of conscience. The disarming of this divine alarm system enables the enemy to enter and move freely about."

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

This article 'Many False Prophets Will Arise and Deceive Many' - Good News Magazine | United Church of God written last year says, 'Moreover, the scribes and Pharisees went beyond mere false teaching. As Jesus explained, "All their works they do to be seen by men" (Matthew 23:5). He castigated them, "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (verse 28)

A man preaching that God's law is done away may be completely sincere in his belief—yet he is nevertheless a false teacher and certainly not a true representative of Jesus Christ.'

Defend the Family - Pro-Family Resource Center - News Archives

This so-called "Pro-Family" resource center should consider a name change. Their website reeks of prejudice.

 

[ebia]

None of these responses reflect God's. Obedience is imperative. The penalty for mortal sin is death. This is my final post here as I cannot respond when people's minds are closed.

Jesus warned us that in the Last Days, Satan's delusions will be centred around "Anomia". Anomia means lawlessness and is the Greek word for "Annulling God's Law." Why are entire Christian Churches adopting the idea that "Grace Frees Us to Disregard (Annul) God's Law"? Isaiah prophesied that just before the Lord comes back to Earth, the inhabitants will have, "Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, and Broken the Everlasting Covenant" (Isa.24:5). Isaiah prophesied that the Lord would utterly destroy the earth because of this. Is Jesus waiting for at least a small remnant within His Church to choose to be obedient and reflect His character instead?

Writing about the time just before Jesus' Second Coming, the time of Antichrist, Isaiah wrote: "The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left". (Isa.24:5-6)

John prophesying about Satan and Antichrist attacking God's people wrote: "The Dragon was wroth with the Woman, and went to make war with the Remnant of her seed, who keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev.12:17)

Isaiah Ch. 24: âEURoeThey Have Transgressed the Laws, Changed the Ordinance, Broken the Everlasting CovenantâEUR | Isaiah: The Times of Fulfillment

The Mormon's say, "In order to sin without feeling guilt, one must lower his moral standard to correspond with his behavior. This is an exactly opposite teaching from the true gospel principle that to remove guilt one must lift his behavior to his moral standard through appropriate repentance. Seeking to reverse the process, some modern clinicians, with their false teachings, seek to strip mankind of the gift of conscience. The disarming of this divine alarm system enables the enemy to enter and move freely about."

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

This article 'Many False Prophets Will Arise and Deceive Many' - Good News Magazine | United Church of God written last year says, 'Moreover, the scribes and Pharisees went beyond mere false teaching. As Jesus explained, "All their works they do to be seen by men" (Matthew 23:5). He castigated them, "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (verse 28)

A man preaching that God's law is done away may be completely sincere in his belief--yet he is nevertheless a false teacher and certainly not a true representative of Jesus Christ.'

Defend the Family - Pro-Family Resource Center - News Archives

None of this explains why trying to stop non-Christians having sex with the wrong people through legislation is more important than caring for the poor, the vulnerable and the homeless.

Quoting OT prophesy as though it were addressed to the Commonwealth of Australia is absurd - it's addressed to the People of God and their own internal behaviour, not to a secular state.

Scripture calls on God's people to:
Make their own behaviour a light to the blind
To oppose systems of injustice.


It does not call on them to try to impose such things as sexual ethics on outsiders.