AUS: Upcoming Vote...

[ebia]

Ebia, interesting points, dgirl1986, I disagree with your last post. Abbott has not shelved all funding for Scientific Research and therefore hasn't deemed it all unimportant. There are many especially older Australians who oppose gay marriage so your personal opinion doesn't mean that it is everyone's opinion and therefore it is incorrect to imply that the government are not listening to what all people want. Also this is an issue which affects a minority with many Australians feeling that this issue shouldn't be dealt with in a political arena at all, nor is it a life and death issue like some refugees dying in unseaworthy boats in their attempts to come here.

Why do you think refugees are willing to risk their lives given the risk?

Trying to stop the boats is like telling someone about to jump from a burning building that its too risky, they must stay there, and if they do jump you'll throw them in prison for it.

 

[TheDag]

Plus shelve the importance of science research and funding
Work against equality regardless of whether it is what the people want or not.

got any evidence for this claim? if you just meant in relation to climate change i agree but your comment seemed to be general not specific. science minister is in the cabinet just not called that. sure it may suffer but it may not. with budget cuts planned in many areas one can not assume a cut back in research is saying it is not important.

 

[Carlotta]

I can't comment on that particular poll without seeing it, but it may well be that the majority would vote against gay marriage given a referendum. Priority should be given to matters which affect the majority of Australians not a minority. It's like giving precedence to whether people should be allowed to wear a burqa over ceasing welfare payments or significantly increasing taxes. That said, the refugees issue is an important one as some refugees are dying in their attempts to flee their country and Abbott's solution is currently affecting Australia's good relationship with Indonesia.

 

[ebia]

I can't comment on that particular poll without seeing it, but it may well be that the majority would vote against gay marriage given a referendum. Priority should be given to matters which affect the majority of Australians not a minority. It's like giving precedence to whether people should be allowed to wear a burqa over ceasing welfare payments or significantly increasing taxes. That said, the refugees issue is an important one as some refugees are dying in their attempts to flee their country and Abbott's solution is currently affecting Australia's good relationship with Indonesia.

Right now his "solution" (what exactly is the problem?) is to stop telling the Australian people who is arriving.

 

[TheDag]

I can't comment on that particular poll without seeing it, but it may well be that the majority would vote against gay marriage given a referendum. Priority should be given to matters which affect the majority of Australians not a minority. It's like giving precedence to whether people should be allowed to wear a burqa over ceasing welfare payments or significantly increasing taxes. That said, the refugees issue is an important one as some refugees are dying in their attempts to flee their country and Abbott's solution is currently affecting Australia's good relationship with Indonesia.

The government is more than capable of dealing with multiple issues at once and indeed is required to. The gay marriage issue is so easy to solve that there is no problem.

What is more concerning is that Abbott who claims to be a Christian is putting into place unchristian policies and then telling lies about why we have those policies. His policies do nothing at all to prevent people drowning at sea like he claims it is all about it does nothing in regards to helping those without a voice which is the very people we are instructed to stand up for. Considering his policies are virtually indentical to Howards policies and Howards policies did not actually work then why do something you know doesn't work. Malcolm Turnbull admitted that in the whole time the Howard govt turn back the boats policy was in place they actually only towed back six boats at the most! The rest were allowed to continue here. That 95% or a bit more are found to be genuine refugees begs the question about why we spend so much money housing them in other countries and then complain about budget blowouts. Also during Howards govt there was a worldwide decrease in refugees including two million alone going back to Afghanistan. There was then a worldwide increase in refugees at the same time that Rudd removed those policies. The overwhelming majority of illegal people in this country arrived legally by plane and overstayed their visa.

 

[Carlotta]

Abbott said before the election that the gay marriage issue was not a priority. There are a gamut of problems arising as a consequence of legalising this in America and I am truly grateful that this is not happening here right now.

The Dag, I hear you about refugees. I think Indonesia stating that they find Abbott's approach offensive and illegal has got to have him rethinking the whole situation you'd think, to keep international relations friendly.

 

[elephunky]

Abbott said before the election that the gay marriage issue was not a priority. There are a gamut of problems arising as a consequence of legalising this in America and I am truly grateful that this is not happening here right now.

The Dag, I hear you about refugees. I think Indonesia stating that they find Abbott's approach offensive and illegal has got to have him rethinking the whole situation you'd think, to keep international relations friendly.

In relation to the gay marriage thing - there is a difference between it not being a priority and possibly moving to try and ban in on a state level. Any so called consequences of it being legalised is completely sensationalised by media and conservative groups over there.

In regards to the refugee issue...he has to be very careful with what he says and how he says it. Could get awkward.

 

[elephunky]

got any evidence for this claim? if you just meant in relation to climate change i agree but your comment seemed to be general not specific. science minister is in the cabinet just not called that. sure it may suffer but it may not. with budget cuts planned in many areas one can not assume a cut back in research is saying it is not important.

Which claim?

The science minister duties are allocated elsewhere, not the same as being a science minister under another name if you get my meaning. There are always consequences to these kind of moves. There is so many cuts being made in so many areas that I am seriously concerned with the future of the Australian people.

 

[ebia]

In regards to the refugee issue...he has to be very careful with what he says and how he says it. Could get awkward.

He hasn't bothered so far.

 

[TheDag]

Abbott said before the election that the gay marriage issue was not a priority. There are a gamut of problems arising as a consequence of legalising this in America and I am truly grateful that this is not happening here right now.

Can you give some examples to help explain? I don't see any problems especially here in Oz where nothing would change if gays were allowed to marry. They already get all the benefits so there is no issue there. The church already has the right to refuse to marry people. A right it does not exercise often enough in my view. I am firmly of the view that a Christian minister should only marry Christians. Non-Christians can use marriage celebrants. Depending on the denomination you can have a marriage celebrant marry you in a church so if the big deal is because you want to be married in a church building and you are not Christian then that would not be prevented from happening. I just think it is wrong of Christian ministers to knowingly allow people who don't believe in God who have no intention of keeping promises to God to stand in church and make those promises.

I would also like a comment on how Tony Abbott saying gay marriage is not a priority reconciles with talking about taking legal action to overturn ACT legislation. If it isn't a priority why bother. Rather it would appear that his true position is that he is against legalising it which is very different to it not being a priority.

 

[TheDag]

Which claim?

The science minister duties are allocated elsewhere, not the same as being a science minister under another name if you get my meaning. There are always consequences to these kind of moves. There is so many cuts being made in so many areas that I am seriously concerned with the future of the Australian people.

ok I better understand your position although I just don't agree that not having a separate minister for what is essentially granting funding and nothing else is saying it is not important.

I agree cuts can be dangerous. Every country in severe financial trouble or that went into severe financial trouble actually cut back on spending big time. Greece, Uk etc. The US who are still in trouble but improving a bit did not cut back all their spending to the degree that Abbott is planning.

 

[Carlotta]

There are major problems arising from legalising gay marriage overseas already. It has repercussions which politicians have not properly thought through as happens when man moves further away from God's plan for humanity, standards which are there for our protection and happiness. This is the consequence of sin and disobedience yet we learnt nothing apparently from the fall of Adam and Eve. Gay marriage isn't something which politicians here should take lightly as it is causing tremendous backlash from both sides as gays are fighting against public who adamently did not agree with legalising it and refuse to now change how they conduct their businesses to accommodate to gay's wishes. It is inciting hatred and legal wars because the public have their deep beliefs that gay marriage is wrong. Politicians overseas have not heard majority views on this issue. Perhaps social media polls are not indicative of the deeply held values and morals of a wide variety of people so to amend laws ignoring this fact brings division and bitter resentment. Here is a sample of part of a recent online comment ,"I live in Oregon now but when I was in Ca, We voted No No No to Gay Marriage and We the Majority said no so it did not pass so all the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] put it in the courts then it was overturned in the Supreme Court which made me [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed and Sick,, Imagine that We the people Voted and it did not matter,,,California was nice but not anymore..." It's accurate to say that legalising gay marriage has caused anger and fighting. Many Christians are extremely unimpressed with Obama over gay marriage, abortion etc.

Abbott said this issue would not be on the agenda for quite some time if he became PM so my point is this is what was expected. Secondly he gave no commitment to having a conscience vote, all he said is that he would put it to the party room to decide some time down the track. The vast majority of Liberal Coalition members voted against it, thus I am quite certain the majority would be against it. If you wanted it, you should have voted Greens because Abbott isn't gay nor is Rudd. They're doing other's bidding. This isn't an issue that should be decided by emotional attachment/friendship with a gay person which seems to be happening. Legalising gay marriage is causing bitterness and disunity across the world and will continue to cause major problems for humanity on many levels. Constitutional rights to free speech, the rights of children, the rights of surrogates, rights of Christians and Jews to their beliefs are just some things not to be ignored in this issue which brings upon itself insurmountable legal repercussions with potential to cause wider rifts and eventually imprisionment of people who oppose gay rights.

 

[elephunky]

There are major problems arising from legalising gay marriage overseas already. It has repercussions which politicians have not properly thought through as happens when man moves further away from God's plan for humanity, standards which are there for our protection and happiness. This is the consequence of sin and disobedience yet we learnt nothing apparently from the story of Adam and Eve. Gay marriage isn't something which politicians here should take lightly as it is causing tremendous backlash from both sides as gays are fighting against public who adamently did not agree with legalising it and refuse to now change how they conduct their businesses to accommodate to gay's wishes. It is inciting hatred and legal wars because the public have their deep beliefs that gay marriage is wrong. Politicians overseas have not heard majority views on this issue. Perhaps social media polls are not indicative of the deeply held values and morals of a wide variety of people so to amend laws ignoring this fact brings division and bitter resentment. Here is a sample of part of a recent online comment ,"I live in Oregon now but when I was in Ca, We voted No No No to Gay Marriage and We the Majority said no so it did not pass so all the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] put it in the courts then it was overturned in the Supreme Court which made me [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed and Sick,, Imagine that We the people Voted and it did not matter,,,California was nice but not anymore..." It's accurate to say that legalising gay marriage has caused anger and fighting. Many Christians are extremely unimpressed with Obama over gay marriage, abortion etc.

I am not seeing any actually evidence that gay marriage itself is causing issue, it is just people opposed to it. Let us not forget that gay marriage refers to secular marriage, not religious marriage. Let us not forget that a nation like ours has no particular religion. If atheists are permitted to get married then why not gay people. I always feel uneasy when the majority make the decision over the minority.

 

[HasAnswers]

" If atheists are permitted to get married then why not gay people."

- YES. It's sad but I think the church has given over the rights for marriage a long time ago. It belongs to the state now so let the state do what it wants.

 

[Carlotta]

What's sad is that God doesn't agree with gay marriage and yet even some Christians can't respect God's Word.

dgirl1986 your statement is an absurd answer to mine, yes there are millions opposed to it because God didn't design sex to be between same sex and many people have some morality. Pity you don't.

 

[Carlotta]

And please don't give me an argument that anal sex is natural or beautiful.

 

[Sayre]

" If atheists are permitted to get married then why not gay people."

- YES. It's sad but I think the church has given over the rights for marriage a long time ago. It belongs to the state now so let the state do what it wants.

Yep that. We allow lots of "sinners" to have a secular marriage, why make a special exception for one particular "sin", if you still believe it to be a sin?

Makes no sense!

We aren't trying to install a theocracy in Australia. Or at least, I'm not. Abbott might be...

 

[Sayre]

What's sad is that God doesn't agree with gay marriage and yet even some Christians can't respect God's Word.

dgirl1986 your statement is an absurd answer to mine, yes there are millions opposed to it because God didn't design sex to be between same sex and many people have some morality. Pity you don't.

Emphasis mine. Please don't think you can make yourself look morally superior by being a nasty so and so to others. Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't mean they have no morality.

If you had some humility, you'd apologise.

And please don't give me an argument that anal sex is natural or beautiful.

Song of songs praises a lot of sexual acts that aren't "vanilla". I'm sure you can read between the lines.

 

[ebia]

What's sad is that God doesn't agree with gay marriage and yet even some Christians can't respect God's Word.

dgirl1986 your statement is an absurd answer to mine, yes there are millions opposed to it because God didn't design sex to be between same sex and many people have some morality. Pity you don't.

What a pity that so many Christians treat sex as the only morality that matters, and other people's sex as the only part of that to make a fuss about.

 

[Carlotta]

A pathetic attempt to divert attention from the argument by focusing attention instead on the person who made the argument while trying to claim the moral high ground against that person.

"Divine law is the ultimate authority. We always obey God's rules: "Refusing obedience to civil authorities when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. 'Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.' We must obey God rather than men."