Those who denounce Paul

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I am surprised this thread hasn't been taken to the UT board by now

But for myself, I am hoping it will stay around on GT for awhile

​

And why is that?

Perhaps for the same reason this other anti-Paul thread is on there

http://www.christianforums.com/t7773902/
What Gospel did Paul preach? (2)



.

 

[Hentenza]

And why is that?

A board within CF dedicated to discussing unorthodox theology. You can view the board by following this link.

 

[Hentenza]

I am surprised this thread hasn't been taken to the UT board by now

But for myself, I am hoping it will stay around on GT for awhile



.

I guess as long as it stays within the context of the OP it can stay in GT. But the line is getting thinner though.

 

[from scratch]

What is "right"? Would you agree that it's the opposite of "wrong"? And that "wrong" = "sin"? And that the definition of "sin" is "transgressing YHWH's Law" (1Jn)?

Thus, the liberty of being able to do what's right is to be free to walk in His Torah.

Only when you're under its jurisdiction. Fortunately the Christian isn't under its jurisdiction and can't violate it.

 

[from scratch]

But that 'no other burden' was said to the gentiles, if the jews experience it as liberty to do it, who am I to judge them? Go ahead, but I'll stick to this.
For me Torah liberty is being set free to first love the Lord with all your heart and the rest follows from that. That's freedom, the law written in your heart.

But the issue is what that law written on one's heart actually is. Some claim it the as written on stone tablets. I request evidence this is true. I can't fine any. I can redefine words to make it true though. I can deny Moses about what the covenant with Israel contains.

 

[from scratch]

Laughing icons don't really do anything to assuage your being wrong.
The church did no such thing.

The Ephesian church is the only 1 of the 7 (lamp stands) that recorded trials of those who were accused of being false apostles. Revelation 2:2 .
If Paul was approved as an apostle why does he admit everyone deserted him? (Ephesus was one of the 7 churches of Asia)
2 Timothy 1:15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Notice Paul says all of Asia turned from him. Not from Jesus teachings, but from Paul, there where the one church that tried false prophets convened.

What was the reason they turned from Paul? Was it because they refused what he taught which for him there was no compromise? If one doesn't like what another says they tend to exclude them. What do you think denominationalism is all about?

I'd love to get into the rest of your post. But right now I'm a little short on time.

 

[ananda]

Well, you are a church of one and an unorthodox church at that. The rest of us mainstream Christians will continue to believe the whole of the word of God not the parts that merely suits our theology as you do. As I said, it is of no consequence.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"

I have a local community of approximately 20+ individual believers that believe as I do, not to mention others worldwide.

You claim to follow "the whole of the word of God", yet you have not/cannot(?) even tell me which canon is "the whole of the word of God".

I do not reject books based on what "suits my theology". I reject books based on YHWH's rules He gave beforehand to guide what must come after.

 

[ananda]

Okay but Matthew 23 ... 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

They had their own tradition, but they also taught the law to people. The Pharisees forgot those most important ones.

What I believe Messiah is commanding is that we are to listen to the Pharisees as far as when they properly teach from Moses (YHWH's Law), but we are not to follow after their traditions. Yet some are still enjoining me now to follow their man-made traditions and to reject YHWH's Law!

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Paul didn't neglect justice and mercy and faith.

The Pharisees denied justice by rejecting YHWH's Law, which provides the proper basis for justice, mercy, and faith.

For you devour widows’ houses ... Paul didn't do that. 1 Timothy 5 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. ... 3 Honor widows who are really widows.

"A widow who is put on the list for support must be a woman who is at least sixty years old and was faithful to her husband." 1Tim 5:9 (NLT). Did Torah/Law restrict widows from receiving support based on age?

 

[ananda]

Only when you're under its jurisdiction. Fortunately the Christian isn't under its jurisdiction and can't violate it.

So why did the Apostle John write this command to the "NT" church? Was he wrong?

 

[Standing Up]

Why did he try to split the council? Was "the resurrection issue" the reason he was arrested in the first place?

Here's the charge---

"Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place."

He defended himself successfully saying he persecuted Christians, until this part.

"And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles."

They didn't like that, though it was prophesied from Genesis and in Psalms and in the prophets.

Point is Saul taught the righteousness of the Law, until he knew Christ. Then Paul rejected that for the righteousness of Christ (Phil 3). The Pharisees and other Jews did not like the message. They preferred to work their own righteousness, just like Saul did.

Today, people try to skewer Paul for the same message of righteousness in Christ, rather than from the Law (Deut 6).

 

[Frogster]

Laughing icons don't really do anything to assuage your being wrong.
The church did no such thing.

The Ephesian church is the only 1 of the 7 (lamp stands) that recorded trials of those who were accused of being false apostles. Revelation 2:2 .
If Paul was approved as an apostle why does he admit everyone deserted him? (Ephesus was one of the 7 churches of Asia)
2 Timothy 1:15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Notice Paul says all of Asia turned from him. Not from Jesus teachings, but from Paul, there where the one church that tried false prophets convened.



Paul taught that the law was fulfilled in one command.
Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”That isn't what Jesus taught when he came before the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Jesus did not say that.
Matthew 22: 34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”




The contradictions in Paul's teachings to that of Jesus were forewarned by John. (The contradictions can be found in Paul's writings in comparison to Jesus. I found a site per your request for that comparison, so that you can read that this is not a new thing when people who study scripture realize Paul is false. *link*)

Warnings Against Denying the Son

I John 2:18-19 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
2 John 1:8-11


8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deed





Not at all. If Paul was not a liar why in at least four different letters did he state he was not lying?
If a lie was not an issue with regard to his teachings, if lying was not a characteristic or an issue of concern, why would he preempt anyone thinking he was lying by avowing he was not lying?
If he was telling the truth why wouldn't he just speak? Instead of promise he was not lying? Why would a truth teller have to promise he wasn't lying?
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Galatians 1:15-20,[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] I Timothy 2:7,[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Romans 9:1-3[/FONT],[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]II Corinthians. 11:31-33)[/FONT]

why point out how they deserted Paul? Did they not leave Jesus? ever hear of the verse, "strike down the shepherd, the sheep will scatter"?

 

[Standing Up]

-snip- We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the lawless, liberal Pharisees (Mt 5:20, 2Pet 3:17)!

No, not "more"; but you must follow it perfectly to enter the Kingdom. It is your righteousness (Deut 6). It is impossible to do so after 70ad.

Quite the problem to have to do what is impossible, while rejecting the solution (Phil 3).

 

[Frogster]

Laughing icons don't really do anything to assuage your being wrong.
The church did no such thing.

The Ephesian church is the only 1 of the 7 (lamp stands) that recorded trials of those who were accused of being false apostles. Revelation 2:2 .
If Paul was approved as an apostle why does he admit everyone deserted him? (Ephesus was one of the 7 churches of Asia)
2 Timothy 1:15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Notice Paul says all of Asia turned from him. Not from Jesus teachings, but from Paul, there where the one church that tried false prophets convened.



Paul taught that the law was fulfilled in one command.
Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”That isn't what Jesus taught when he came before the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Jesus did not say that.
Matthew 22: 34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”




The contradictions in Paul's teachings to that of Jesus were forewarned by John. (The contradictions can be found in Paul's writings in comparison to Jesus. I found a site per your request for that comparison, so that you can read that this is not a new thing when people who study scripture realize Paul is false. *link*)

Warnings Against Denying the Son

I John 2:18-19 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
2 John 1:8-11


8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deed





Not at all. If Paul was not a liar why in at least four different letters did he state he was not lying?
If a lie was not an issue with regard to his teachings, if lying was not a characteristic or an issue of concern, why would he preempt anyone thinking he was lying by avowing he was not lying?
If he was telling the truth why wouldn't he just speak? Instead of promise he was not lying? Why would a truth teller have to promise he wasn't lying?
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Galatians 1:15-20,[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] I Timothy 2:7,[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Romans 9:1-3[/FONT],[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]II Corinthians. 11:31-33)[/FONT]

you still did not cover your Romans 3:7 mistake, and Paul knew he was under attack. Were the evil things said about Jesus true?

the lasw and command issue you gave is a weak...atttack, stop acting like Paul did not know the law, he was figured to replace Gamaliel in the future...

can't ya gimmie some strong stuff here, gee, I posted unbelievable strong support for Paul, from Luke, but all i get is this? Gee...they say paul llied..like he did not know that?

 

[Frogster]

Those who live by the yoke, suffer by the yoke

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G2218 matches the Greek ζυγός (zygos), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Deuteronomy 28:48
Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YAHWEH shall send against thee, in hunger and in thirst and in nakedness and in want of all things:
and He shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
[Acts 15:10/Reve 6:5]

.

true indeed...the fathers could not bear it....

 

[Standing Up]

Laughing icons don't really do anything to assuage your being wrong.
The church did no such thing.

The Ephesian church is the only 1 of the 7 (lamp stands) that recorded trials of those who were accused of being false apostles. Revelation 2:2 .
If Paul was approved as an apostle why does he admit everyone deserted him? (Ephesus was one of the 7 churches of Asia)
2 Timothy 1:15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Notice Paul says all of Asia turned from him. Not from Jesus teachings, but from Paul, there where the one church that tried false prophets convened.

Because he was arrested and in chains. It was for persecution. Not for doctrine.

Besides later he did go through Asia Minor.

Paul taught that the law was fulfilled in one command.
Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”That isn't what Jesus taught when he came before the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Jesus did not say that.
Matthew 22: 34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


-snip-

Do you reject James as well?

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:"

 

[Frogster]

So why did the Apostle John write this command to the "NT" church? Was he wrong?

John also said Jesus took away our sin.

 

[Messy]

But the issue is what that law written on one's heart actually is.

I think the love of God put into your heart which makes you want to do what He wants and enables you to forgive your enemy.

 

[Frogster]

So why did the Apostle John write this command to the "NT" church? Was he wrong?

He stressed 2 commands in 1 John, lemeee know if you want to see them, he said "this is the command", AND THERE WERE 2...not 613...

 

[ananda]

Here's the charge--- "Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place."

Does this reason sound anything like his claim in the Sanhedrin that he was arrested for the issue of the resurrection?

He defended himself successfully saying he persecuted Christians, until this part. "And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles." They didn't like that, though it was prophesied from Genesis and in Psalms and in the prophets.

What was prophesied?

Point is Saul taught the righteousness of the Law, until he knew Christ. Then Paul rejected that for the righteousness of Christ (Phil 3). The Pharisees and other Jews did not like the message. They preferred to work their own righteousness, just like Saul did. Today, people try to skewer Paul for the same message of righteousness in Christ, rather than from the Law (Deut 6).

Self-righteousness does not mean "righteousness one might gain from following YHWH's Law". Self-righteousness means "the belief that one is righteous based on following one's own traditions or religious practices apart from YHWH's Law".

 

[Frogster]

But that 'no other burden' was said to the gentiles, if the jews experience it as liberty to do it, who am I to judge them? Go ahead, but I'll stick to this.
For me Torah liberty is being set free to first love the Lord with all your heart and the rest follows from that. That's freedom, the law written in your heart.

are human beings not all the same? besides, in Acts 15, jewish peter said that HE, not the JEWISH, fathers could bear the torah yoke...