Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[guuila]

Actually, it was quite a bit way more absurd than the OP, which, btw, neither you nor your buddies have been able to refute.

You failed to refute the excuse people in hell will have in FreeGrace2ism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You failed to refute the excuse people in hell will have in FreeGrace2ism.

How can one refute was doesn't exist? Your question is bogus. There is no such thing as "FreeGrace2ism". It's just another childish tactic of name calling. But knock yourself out, my child. Seems you can't resist.

You see, my position is that no one in hell will have any excuse, because the Bible says so. Because Christ died for everyone and has eternal life for everyone and actually gives that precious and priceless gift to whosoever believes in Him for it. Can you refute this?

I know you Calvinists don't think your theology gives anyone an excuse, but it sure does, as I've shown. And none of y'all have refuted that challenge.

 

[RisingSpirit]

... There is no such thing as "FreeGrace2ism"....

Sure there are. FreeGrace2ism is 1.5pt Arminianism. Anti-Reformed/Calvinist and a zealot extreme Dave Hunt will probably quote you in his next book to back him up.

​

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sure there are. FreeGrace2ism is 1.5pt Arminianism. Anti-Reformed/Calvinist and a zealot extreme Dave Hunt will probably quote you in his next book to back him up.

The childish tactic of name calling is all you guys have left in your "arsenal".

Those who admit to being a "Calvinist" will count down only as low as 3pointers. The FACT that my answers to Metal Minister show that I agreed with only 1.5 of his questions proves that I'm not an Arminian, according to his questions.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone replies back, "well, that's not our definition", just like what happened after I cited and quoted from a monergism website about the definition of a synergist and explained why I didn't believe it, and one of y'all came back with "well, that's not our definition".

All you guys do is move the goal posts.

Anyway, it's been proven that I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian. We'll see whether or not the childish tactic of name calling will cease, though.

Unlike Calvinism and Arminianism though, I CAN and have provided verses that SAY exactly what I believe.

Jesus Christ died for everyone. Heb 2:9
God is well pleased (chooses) to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

 

[RisingSpirit]

...Unlike Calvinism and Arminianism though, I CAN and have provided verses that SAY exactly what I believe. ...

​

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON

I did a bit more clean up after the troll's latest appearance.


MOD HAT OFF

 

[FreeGrace2]

​

Well, of course Jesus would agree with me. I spoke truth, and He IS the truth.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Well, of course Jesus would agree with me. I spoke truth, and He IS the truth.

​

 

[Hammster]

Yes it's true the God has chose us for salvation through belief. That point isn't really arguable. That's the means God uses to save (justify). However, God doesn't save because of belief. In other words, He's not using that as a basis for salvation.

Belief is an act that has to be done by a spiritually minded person.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8 NASB)

So we have the mind of the flesh (the natural man) being hostile to God. Nothing he does is pleasing to God.

Paul then says:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9 NASB)

So how can one please God? By being in the Spirit. How are we in the Spirit? The Spirit dwells in us.

Paul devotes almost two chapters worth of writing in Romans describing the unregenerate. Now he's bringing it home.

The unregenerate hates God (either with animosity or indifference) and wants nothing to do with Him. And some will suppose that a man can be convinced by an argument that God is real, and that their sin is a problem, and then convince them to repent and believe the Gospel.

Paul, according to Romans, would heatedly disagree.

A few verses later he says this:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 NASB)

If you honestly look at what this passage says, Paul tells us who God calls (elects). He calls those who are predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ. We also know that this isn't a general call to all people. Why? Because it says that those who are called are justified. And I don't think that any of us are universalists.

So it's clear that Paul believes that salvation is wholly of God. Does he discuss this elsewhere? Sure.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Ephesians 2:1-6 NASB)

For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7 NASB)

Both of these passages give a beautiful picture of salvation. Both completely God-centered.

Now, I'm sure there will be naysayers that will try to find a verse here or there to counter this (crazy as that sounds), but for the rest of us, we rest on the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

​

But that joker isn't. Interesting who you "go to" for support for your views. LOL

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes it's true the God has chose us for salvation through belief. That point isn't really arguable. That's the means God uses to save (justify). However, God doesn't save because of belief. In other words, He's not using that as a basis for salvation.

Actually, that is exactly the basis for who He saves. You are mistaken to claim that God chooses who believes by giving them this so-called "gift of faith" that enables them to believe. If that were true, then Paul's answer to the jailer was most disingenuous.

The jailer asked him very clearly what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was equally clear: BELIEVE, and you will be saved.

To deny what Acts 16:30 and 31 is teaching is not rational.

Belief is an act that has to be done by a spiritually minded person.

OK, another claim from a Calvinist. What verse informs you of that?

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8 NASB)

There is nothing in this passage, or any other, that SAYS that an unbeliever cannot believe the gospel. In fact, Paul's entire ministry was trying to persuade Jews to believe the gospel message. If you were correct, he wouldn't have had to try to persuade anyone of anything.

So we have the mind of the flesh (the natural man) being hostile to God. Nothing he does is pleasing to God.

Until he believes in Christ, which greatly pleases God, and through which, God then saves him. 1 Cor 1:21 teaches what God chooses to do for those who believe.

Paul then says:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9 NASB)

Sure. But just a little bit further in that passage Paul argues that believers still may live according to the sin nature (v.13) and the consequences of doing so. So even believers may "present" themselves as slaves to sin, per 6:16, which precedes ch 8 and provides context for all that follows ch 6.

So how can one please God? By being in the Spirit. How are we in the Spirit? The Spirit dwells in us.

Wow, you have really misunderstood Scripture. One pleases God by faith.

Heb 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Apparently you weren't aware of this verse when you made that erroneous comment.

A few verses later he says this:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 NASB)

If you honestly look at what this passage says, Paul tells us who God calls (elects). He calls those who are predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ.

yes. He calls (which is NOT election, but an invitation) believers. That's who will be conformed to the image of His Son.

We also know that this isn't a general call to all people. Why? Because it says that those who are called are justified. And I don't think that any of us are universalists.

Correct. The call is to believer only.

So it's clear that Paul believes that salvation is wholly of God. Does he discuss this elsewhere? Sure.

Of course it is, and I have wholly agreed throughout.

Both of these passages give a beautiful picture of salvation. Both completely God-centered.

Yes, and what you continue to miss or dodge is that man MUST respond in faith. Acts 16:31 says so.

Now, I'm sure there will be naysayers that will try to find a verse here or there to counter this (crazy as that sounds), but for the rest of us, we rest on the truth.

You know, even just 1 verse that refutes your theology is enough of a refutation. But apparently you don't believe that.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, that is exactly the basis for who He saves. You are mistaken to claim that God chooses who believes by giving them this so-called "gift of faith" that enables them to believe. If that were true, then Paul's answer to the jailer was most disingenuous.

The jailer asked him very clearly what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was equally clear: BELIEVE, and you will be saved.

To deny what Acts 16:30 and 31 is teaching is not rational.


OK, another claim from a Calvinist. What verse informs you of that?


There is nothing in this passage, or any other, that SAYS that an unbeliever cannot believe the gospel. In fact, Paul's entire ministry was trying to persuade Jews to believe the gospel message. If you were correct, he wouldn't have had to try to persuade anyone of anything.


Until he believes in Christ, which greatly pleases God, and through which, God then saves him. 1 Cor 1:21 teaches what God chooses to do for those who believe.


Sure. But just a little bit further in that passage Paul argues that believers still may live according to the sin nature (v.13) and the consequences of doing so. So even believers may "present" themselves as slaves to sin, per 6:16, which precedes ch 8 and provides context for all that follows ch 6.


Wow, you have really misunderstood Scripture. One pleases God by faith.

Heb 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Apparently you weren't aware of this verse when you made that erroneous comment.


yes. He calls (which is NOT election, but an invitation) believers. That's who will be conformed to the image of His Son.


Correct. The call is to believer only.


Of course it is, and I have wholly agreed throughout.


Yes, and what you continue to miss or dodge is that man MUST respond in faith. Acts 16:31 says so.


You know, even just 1 verse that refutes your theology is enough of a refutation. But apparently you don't believe that.

Cool stories, bro. When you're ready to refute, let us know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Cool stories, bro. When you're ready to refute, let us know.

So, Acts 16:30 and 31 is just a "story" to you? Hm.

btw, the refutation already occurred. Quite some time ago. I brought the challenges to Calvinism, and none of you refuted me or defended yourselves. I know that you thought you did.

 

[Hammster]

So, Acts 16:30 and 31 is just a "story" to you? Hm.

btw, the refutation already occurred. Quite some time ago. I brought the challenges to Calvinism, and none of you refuted me or defended yourselves. I know that you thought you did.

You've not refuted what I said. So my post stands unrefuted. Posting a story out of context doesn't count. I know you think it's refuting. But it's not.

 

[guuila]

Well, that was entertaining.

 

[Hammster]

Acts 16:31

www.christianforums.com/t7771442/

 

[FreeGrace2]

You've not refuted what I said. So my post stands unrefuted. Posting a story out of context doesn't count. I know you think it's refuting. But it's not.

Where is your claimed refutation of anything I've posted? I can find every post disagreeing with my views. Fine. That is not refutation.

In fact, I challenged Calvinists to show verses that SAY that Christ died ONLY for the elect/some/believers/etc. And you all failed to do so.

I challenged Calvinists to show how Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers. And all you guys could come up with is "sin is the reason" they are in hell. Yet, since God ONLY chose some, and Christ ONLY died for that some, that in itself IS an excuse for the hell dwellers. Yet not one Calvinist was able to undersand, or admit it. But it is true.

So, how is it again that you refuted anything I've said, hammster?

 

[guuila]

Where is your claimed refutation of anything I've posted? I can find every post disagreeing with my views. Fine. That is not refutation.

In fact, I challenged Calvinists to show verses that SAY that Christ died ONLY for the elect/some/believers/etc. And you all failed to do so.

I challenged Calvinists to show how Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers. And all you guys could come up with is "sin is the reason" they are in hell. Yet, since God ONLY chose some, and Christ ONLY died for that some, that in itself IS an excuse for the hell dwellers. Yet not one Calvinist was able to undersand, or admit it. But it is true.

So, how is it again that you refuted anything I've said, hammster?

Wait. Calvinists? I thought you said we need to stop the name calling?

 

[nobdysfool]

Where is your claimed refutation of anything I've posted? I can find every post disagreeing with my views. Fine. That is not refutation.

In fact, I challenged Calvinists to show verses that SAY that Christ died ONLY for the elect/some/believers/etc. And you all failed to do so.

I challenged Calvinists to show how Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers. And all you guys could come up with is "sin is the reason" they are in hell. Yet, since God ONLY chose some, and Christ ONLY died for that some, that in itself IS an excuse for the hell dwellers. Yet not one Calvinist was able to undersand, or admit it. But it is true.

So, how is it again that you refuted anything I've said, hammster?

So, you're of the opinion that if you claim that no one refuted what you say, you must be right? And, to be fair, refutation is in the eye of the beholder, not the one who is being refuted. We see this all the time. The one refuted refuses to concede, and continues to claim that no refutation has been made, in spite of objective evidence to the contrary.

Doesn't matter whether you accept it or concede it, or not.

Tell him what he's won, Bob!

 

[Hammster]

Where is your claimed refutation of anything I've posted? I can find every post disagreeing with my views. Fine. That is not refutation.

In fact, I challenged Calvinists to show verses that SAY that Christ died ONLY for the elect/some/believers/etc. And you all failed to do so.

I challenged Calvinists to show how Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers. And all you guys could come up with is "sin is the reason" they are in hell. Yet, since God ONLY chose some, and Christ ONLY died for that some, that in itself IS an excuse for the hell dwellers. Yet not one Calvinist was able to undersand, or admit it. But it is true.

So, how is it again that you refuted anything I've said, hammster?

I'm still waiting for a refutation of 571. Your claims of refuting ring hollow.