An atheists world (2)

[CarlosTomy]

good response I disagree that DNA magically forms however,

I did not say it magically forms. I said it forms following standard basic chemical/physical rules. In fact sort of like the same rules that "create" ice crystals in your freezer.

The coded information, organized in small sets called "bytes" in binary computer code and "codons" in the DNA of living organisms, is able to tolerate some mutations. But the study's authors show that these mutations must occur within the boundaries of the error-correction systems or the whole program—or whole organism—will be irreparably harmed.

Think about this for a second: if there wasn't a system by which the structure would collapse under virtually no stress, would it be here today?

But remember, you started off asking about DNA, not "error correction". I answered the point about DNA and it's development, while DNA is very cool and fascinating, it doesn't utilize ANYTHING that isn't basic chemistry which equally applies to all other chemicals.

 

[nuttypiglet]

I don't know. There's no possible way to know that.

You're also assuming that the way the universe is isn't the only way it could possibly be. There's no way for you to know that, either.

erm no, ask astrophysicists they will tell you. It takes very tight tolerances for the Universe to be as it is.
We are told that there was a singularity of energy, everything to make this universe and it was spinning very fast. Then it became unstable, but why?
I think the problem with science understanding the religious perspective is the famous Ex nihilo (from nothing). This is not strictly true. God didn't make the Universe from 'nothing' neither did he make human souls from 'nothing'. Enoch was told by God that he sent forth some form of energy from his OWN realm, into the lowest depths where nothing existed to form our Universe. Our souls were made from a part of God too. I think it should be translated more like "something given to where there was originally nothing". We can create many things in labs, we can create cars, using existing materials, so why is it so far fetched that someone with a much superior intelligence could create a Universe.

 

[lasthero]

erm no, ask astrophysicists they will tell you. It takes very tight tolerances for the Universe to be as it is.

Again, you're assuming that the universe can be in any other state than the one it's in. There's nothing to really support that.

We are told that there was a singularity of energy, everything to make this universe and it was spinning very fast. Then it became unstable, but why?

If you want to believe it's god or God or gods or the result of intersteller flatulence, that's fine with me.

We can create many things in labs, we can create cars, using existing materials, so why is it so far fetched that someone with a much superior intelligence could create a Universe.

No one ever said it was 'farfetched'. You still have to back it up with evidence, regardless.

 

[RiemannZ]

We can create many things in labs, we can create cars, using existing materials, so why is it so far fetched that someone with a much superior intelligence could create a Universe.

there's this thing called parsimony, without it we could come up with infinite different answers for any question

 

[nuttypiglet]

Here is an article that can answer your questions:


Errors in DNA Replication | Learn Science at Scitable

From the article:

I had the impression it would be far more complex than that. I can see the relation with single celled organisms, such as bacteria, but it's harder to comprehend with something like a human. We have hundreds of cell types and most carry the complete genome but Gene expression has caused them to be engineered for specific types. This means then that many mutations could occur in one cell type, affecting the DNA which has nothing to do with that cell type? I am also wondering how many mutations could occur before the immune system notices there's a problem. We know that the immune system attempts to attack some forms of cancer for example, but often too late or not very effectively. We also know that if attacked internally, from say a virus, a cell will send out messages through the membrane to warn the immune system and offer the protein code of the virus as a headstart if it achieves it. Does a cell not transmit any codes as a kind of checksum for the DNA? a kind of security failsafe?
However, all that put aside, it is obvious that a mutation not causing harm to the organism would be very rare indeed. It would be like me changing two lines of code in a huge computer program and expecting it to run as expected. The other problem of course is getting the new code into the offspring for multicelled organisms (Gametes). If bone cell division develops code errors, how to they get into the Gametes used for transference to offspring?

 

[nuttypiglet]

there's this thing called parsimony, without it we could come up with infinite different answers for any question

Well, I can't see it being 'infinite'. Anyway, with a multiverse theory you have the same issue. We can't observe anything to do with the theory and cannot test it in any way. Therefore it's always going to be hypothesis. A bit like evolution.

 

[lasthero]

Therefore it's always going to be hypothesis. A bit like evolution.

Not at all like evolution.

 

[Aman777]

Scripture is myth.

Please try to find some evidence that supports it.

Until then I will point out that you only have empty claims that not even your fellow Christians believe.

Dear SZ, ALL of the evidence of Science, History and Scripture agree. The problem is getting the devotees of the False Theory of Evolution to realize it. They have had too much fun showing the fact that the traditional religious views of ancient men is NOT the Truth, for 150 years now.

I show them that ALL Truth is the SAME Truth whether is was authored by God or discovered by man or confirmed by History. They are so far gone, they don't realize that they are arguing that God's Truth is wrong, since their argument is with the ancient theology of goat herders, and NOT with the Supreme Intelligence of Creation.

Therefore, it is time for the False Teachers of Godless Evolution to either put up or shut up. Either show us How and When the common ancestor of Apes inherited the Human intelligence of Adam, the first Human, who was Never on this Earth, or everyone will see the Fantasy of the False ToE. God shows it in Scripture and YOU cannot refute it.

IF you THINK that we evolved from Apes, then tell us HOW Human intelligence entered our bodies apart from the Birth Canal. You cannot. All you can do is tell us to have FAITH in the incomplete, untrue, changable studies of mere, mortal, men.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Aman777]

Aman,

How is the work going on producing the verifiable evidence to support your claims?

Can we expect it soon?

Dear Bhsmte, ALL verifiable evidence agrees with God's Holy Word. Why don't you get more specific and show us where God's Truth does NOT agree with science and history? Is it because it's easier to completely eliminate God's Holy Word as Truth? and dismiss those who believe it?

Who died and told YOU that your word was above God's? Such arrogance is truly foolish. ie. Lucifer thought the same.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Subduction Zone]

I had the impression it would be far more complex than that. I can see the relation with single celled organisms, such as bacteria, but it's harder to comprehend with something like a human. We have hundreds of cell types and most carry the complete genome but Gene expression has caused them to be engineered for specific types. This means then that many mutations could occur in one cell type, affecting the DNA which has nothing to do with that cell type? I am also wondering how many mutations could occur before the immune system notices there's a problem. We know that the immune system attempts to attack some forms of cancer for example, but often too late or not very effectively. We also know that if attacked internally, from say a virus, a cell will send out messages through the membrane to warn the immune system and offer the protein code of the virus as a headstart if it achieves it. Does a cell not transmit any codes as a kind of checksum for the DNA? a kind of security failsafe?
However, all that put aside, it is obvious that a mutation not causing harm to the organism would be very rare indeed. It would be like me changing two lines of code in a huge computer program and expecting it to run as expected. The other problem of course is getting the new code into the offspring for multicelled organisms (Gametes). If bone cell division develops code errors, how to they get into the Gametes used for transference to offspring?

Wrong analogy. The genome is more like a recipe than a program. It tells RNA how to build proteins. A mutation builds a slightly different protein.

And since on average you would have about 150 mutations from your parents it is fairly obvious that most mutations are benign and not harmful at all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Dear SZ, ALL of the evidence of Science, History and Scripture agree. The problem is getting the devotees of the True Theory of Evolution to realize it. They have had too much fun showing the fact that the traditional religious views of ancient men is NOT the Truth, for 150 years now.

I show them that ALL Truth is the SAME Truth whether is was authored by God or discovered by man or confirmed by History. They are so far gone, they don't realize that they are arguing that God's Truth is wrong, since their argument is with the ancient theology of goat herders, and NOT with the Supreme Intelligence of Creation.

Therefore, it is time for the False Teachers of Godless Evolution to either put up or shut up. Either show us How and When the common ancestor of Apes inherited the Human intelligence of Adam, the first Human, who was Never on this Earth, or everyone will see the Fantasy of the False ToE. God shows it in Scripture and YOU cannot refute it.

IF you THINK that we evolved from Apes, then tell us HOW Human intelligence entered our bodies apart from the Birth Canal. You cannot. All you can do is tell us to have FAITH in the incomplete, untrue, changable studies of mere, mortal, men.

In Love,
Aman

Aman, thank you for tell me that you still have nothing.

If you want to ask a question and expect an answer you have to get rid of all of your garbage.

 

[CarlosTomy]

Dear SZ, ALL of the evidence of Science, History and Scripture agree.

Regardless of how one views scripture, it is clearly NOT necessarily in agreement with history or science. The key point is that it doesn't HAVE to be in agreement with these things if one reads it for "spiritual enlightenment".

Archeaology finds that many of the cities mentioned in the story of David may not have existed at the time that David is thought to have lived but rather later (at a time when the actual stories were written). So even if David was a real person, the people writing about him may have come long after him. And they wrote stories for the "society" in order to fulfill a bigger goal of providing a coherent social history.

As for science; Genesis is a great example where the "order of appearance" of things doesn't even come CLOSE to agreeing with science.

Now in reality that doesn't matter one whit to the overall idea of preaching about a "creator God"...it doesn't, however match up with what the evidence tells us.

The problem is getting the devotees of the False Theory of Evolution to realize it.

Realize what? That seed bearing land plants don't show up before life in the oceans? Or that birds DON'T show up before life on land? Or that the stars are much older than the moon?

The Bible is not in agreement with the evidence. That shouldn't hurt the "spiritual" message of the bible...but it definitely makes it less reliable as a "science textbook".

Therefore, it is time for the False Teachers of Godless Evolution to either put up or shut up.

Which they have been doing consistently for 150-200 years now.

Either show us How and When the common ancestor of Apes inherited the Human intelligence of Adam, the first Human, who was Never on this Earth, or everyone will see the Fantasy of the False ToE. God shows it in Scripture and YOU cannot refute it.

But are you not also required to show us INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence of God? And not just any "god-concept" but the EXACT Judeo-CHristian God such that everyone must agree that this is the most likely version of "god" and that it is nearly incontrovertible.

IF you THINK that we evolved from Apes

Who thinks that? We evolved along with apes.

, then tell us HOW Human intelligence entered our bodies

Do you not think that apes have similar intelligence to humans? Perhaps a sliding scale? Maybe not quite the exact same...but then my intelligence and mental capabilities are much different from my dog.

apart from the Birth Canal. You cannot. All you can do is tell us to have FAITH in the incomplete, untrue, changable studies of mere, mortal, men.

Does that include the eons of THEOLOGIANS who have helped formulate and explain the nature of God?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Therefore, it is time for the False Teachers of Godless Evolution to either put up or shut up. Either show us How and When the common ancestor of Apes inherited the Human intelligence of Adam, the first Human, who was Never on this Earth,

What? Whichever adam you are referring to, and I confess I don't know, the above doesn't even begin to make sense.

or everyone will see the Fantasy of the False ToE. God shows it in Scripture and YOU cannot refute it.

Refute what?

IF you THINK that we evolved from Apes, then tell us HOW Human intelligence entered our bodies apart from the Birth Canal.

The birth canal?

Intelligence evolved, just like all other characteristics.

You cannot. All you can do is tell us to have FAITH in the incomplete, untrue, changable studies of mere, mortal, men.

Um, no, evolution is about as concrete a fact as you can get.


How is your refutation of evolution coming along by the way? Is it ready to be submitted to any eminent journals yet?

 

[lasthero]

Please don't let Aman derail this thread with his nonsense. Just ignore him. All he wants is for people to respond to things he says - he's not interested in debate or supporting his positions or having a reasonable dialogue. You'd have a more fruitful time trying to convince a madman that he wasn't the reincarnated soul of Napolean.

Put him on ignore and move on. I swear, you won't miss anything.

 

[bhsmte]

Dear Bhsmte, ALL verifiable evidence agrees with God's Holy Word. Why don't you get more specific and show us where God's Truth does NOT agree with science and history? Is it because it's easier to completely eliminate God's Holy Word as Truth? and dismiss those who believe it?

Who died and told YOU that your word was above God's? Such arrogance is truly foolish. ie. Lucifer thought the same.

In Love,
Aman

Show us the verifiable evidence to support your claims. You are making the claims, back them up with evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Please don't let Aman derail this thread with his nonsense. Just ignore him. All he wants is for people to respond to things he says - he's not interested in debate or supporting his positions or having a reasonable dialogue. You'd have a more fruitful time trying to convince a madman that he wasn't the reincarnated soul of Napolean.

Put him on ignore and move on. I swear, you won't miss anything.

I have been here a while and I have no idea where the ignore function is.

Of course I don't tend to put people on ignore anyway.

 

[AV1611VET]

I have been here a while and I have no idea where the ignore function is.

Of course I don't tend to put people on ignore anyway.

User CP ... Edit Ignore List

 

[Subduction Zone]

User CP ... Edit Ignore List

Thank you. If I feel the need the option is there now.

 

[bhsmte]

I have been here a while and I have no idea where the ignore function is.

Of course I don't tend to put people on ignore anyway.

I agree. Too much entertainment value would be lost by ignoring some of the posters on this board.

 

[lasthero]

I have been here a while and I have no idea where the ignore function is.

Of course I don't tend to put people on ignore anyway.

Typically, I don't either, but for some people, the only way to deal with them is to ignore them. It reminds me of this conversation I had with a geocentrist once, where nothing - no amount of evidence, no facts, nothing - was getting through to him. I knew I should stop, but I felt compelled to respond. It would be like if someone told me that 1+1=3; something's are just so wrong that I feel sort of compelled to say something, even knowing how fruitless the discussion is going to be. And the only way to avoid that, for me, is the ignore button.